2017 Draft discussion- Sabres pick 8th. Part 2

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La Cosa Nostra

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All this is fine and dandy, and yes you can find defensemen in later rounds that produce. Look at Weber, Josi, Ekholm, and countless others. However, part of the problem is that you also miss out on the talented blueliners by going for flash over substance. I can see what you're going to view in Tippett, but this team needs to push the puck from the back forward.

But there aren't any dmen outside of Makar and Heiskanen who are considered surefire high first rounders among dmen. Liljegren went from surefire top 2 pick to anywhere from 7-mid 20s. Valimaki isn't a top 10 prospect. You simply cannot draft what isn't there. I know we need defense. I know defense is a bigger need then wing. It doesn't mean we can't upgrade the wing. It doesn't mean we can't acquire established dmen to improve the blue line, this team needs D help now. Drafting a D in 2017 does nothing to change that. Guhle making the team (as in earning it), Antipin crossing the pond and adding another top 4 D be it signing Alzner or trading for a Brodin is what we need. Kane has a year left. Tippett is the best pure goal scorer in his draft class. If Reinhart is indeed a center long term that leaves Okposo and a bunch of question marks at wing in the top 6/9 long term. I'm assuming Nylander does pan out and our wingers still aren't that great. I know people will point at Pittsburgh but Jack isn't Crosby, as awesome as he is. He won't turn a marginal winger into a 60+ point winger a la Guentzel and Sheary. I'm not saying we need to have 4-5 wingers making millions. But we can't rely on just Okposo and Nylander long term. I'd like to place a legit high end winger on each of the top 3 lines, RoR Eichel and Sam should all have a top end winger to play with. RoR has Okposo, Nylander can play with Sam and a guy like Tippett is perfect with Eichel. I'm just imagining Jacks sublime playmaking and passing and invisioning Eichel setting up Tippett 30 times a season. He also played with Nylander last year.


I get the Virtanen vibes from Tippett that people have but you can't just assume every big goal scoring winger is going to turn into the next Virtanen or Crouse or Ritchie. That list Zip posted is damn impressive. Every single player on that list aside from one is an established NHL star and the one who isn't had to retire due to cardiac arrest. I just know that this teams offense still isn't good enough for a cup run. We haven't scored 200+ goals in a season in how long, 4-5 years? If Tippett can turn into that big 30 goal scorer then that's a home run at #8 in a weak draft.

As for trading up for Makar, unless the team trading down doesn't grade him good there is zero chance they are moving out of him for #37 and a pick in the 50s in a weak draft with no depth. Better off trying to package stuff with #37 to try and move up high in the 2nd a la Asplund and get a D who falls into round 2 that was projected to be a first round pick. Either way, I'm not banking on a Dman from this draft into helping the Sabres any time soon. We can't wait for a D to develop while we waste Eichel and Reinharts prime and wait to contend when RoR is in his 30s. Our window isn't 5 years from now. Our window is right now, we need to make the playoffs next year. We need a conference finals appearance by 2020. A cup within 5-6 years, not starting to compete in 5 years.
 
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Doug Prishpreed

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You think he'd consider one of the best even strength scorers in the league to move down 3 spots?

Fascinating.

Kane is the best even strength scorer on the Sabres and they're likely going to trade him this offseason. I know it's surprising to you that scouts look at many facets, not just one, but welcome to reality.
 

itwasaforwardpass

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Mar 4, 2017
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Exactly. Kind of why I have issues Liljegren as well.

Back in February scouts were praising his hockey sense and he was ranked in the top 3 of this years draft. He struggled this season after contracting mono and now in May some criticize his hockey sense. It's hard to determine how much was on the mono and how much was on him this year.
 

UnleashRasmus

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But there aren't any dmen outside of Makar and Heiskanen who are considered surefire high first rounders among dmen. Liljegren went from surefire top 2 pick to anywhere from 7-mid 20s. Valimaki isn't a top 10 prospect. You simply cannot draft what isn't there. I know we need defense. I know defense is a bigger need then wing. It doesn't mean we can't upgrade the wing. It doesn't mean we can't acquire established dmen to improve the blue line, this team needs D help now. Drafting a D in 2017 does nothing to change that. Guhle making the team (as in earning it), Antipin crossing the pond and adding another top 4 D be it signing Alzner or trading for a Brodin is what we need. Kane has a year left. Tippett is the best pure goal scorer in his draft class. If Reinhart is indeed a center long term that leaves Okposo and a bunch of question marks at wing in the top 6/9 long term. I'm assuming Nylander does pan out and our wingers still aren't that great. I know people will point at Pittsburgh but Jack isn't Crosby, as awesome as he is. He won't turn a marginal winger into a 60+ point winger a la Guentzel and Sheary. I'm not saying we need to have 4-5 wingers making millions. But we can't rely on just Okposo and Nylander long term. I'd like to place a legit high end winger on each of the top 3 lines, RoR Eichel and Sam should all have a top end winger to play with. RoR has Okposo, Nylander can play with Sam and a guy like Tippett is perfect with Eichel. I'm just imagining Jacks sublime playmaking and passing and invisioning Eichel setting up Tippett 30 times a season. He also played with Nylander last year.


I get the Virtanen vibes from Tippett that people have but you can't just assume every big goal scoring winger is going to turn into the next Virtanen or Crouse or Ritchie. That list Zip posted is damn impressive. Every single player on that list aside from one is an established NHL star and the one who isn't had to retire due to cardiac arrest. I just know that this teams offense still isn't good enough for a cup run. We haven't scored 200+ goals in a season in how long, 4-5 years? If Tippett can turn into that big 30 goal scorer then that's a home run at #8 in a weak draft.

As for trading up for Makar, unless the team trading down doesn't grade him good there is zero chance they are moving out of him for #37 and a pick in the 50s in a weak draft with no depth. Better off trying to package stuff with #37 to try and move up high in the 2nd a la Asplund and get a D who falls into round 2 that was projected to be a first round pick. Either way, I'm not banking on a Dman from this draft into helping the Sabres any time soon. We can't wait for a D to develop while we waste Eichel and Reinharts prime and wait to contend when RoR is in his 30s. Our window isn't 5 years from now. Our window is right now, we need to make the playoffs next year. We need a conference finals appearance by 2020. A cup within 5-6 years, not starting to compete in 5 years.

So did Chychrun, and he looked at times to be all that value and more at 16. This team needs to stop undervaluing defense in the top half of the draft. I would much rather have him at this juncture. But to each their own. This argument is fine and dandy, and how did the trades of Bogosian, Gorges and signing Franson do for you?
 

Butt Ox

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Exactly. Kind of why I have issues Liljegren as well.
Back in February scouts were praising his hockey sense and he was ranked in the top 3 of this years draft. He struggled this season after contracting mono and now in May some criticize his hockey sense. It's hard to determine how much was on the mono and how much was on him this year.

We probably agree that his skating is superb - edge work and agility are top notch. Buffalo needs a mobile defenseman who can move the puck, right?

His shot is money too, what's not to like?

That would be his hockey sense. Sure, we can point at mono taking its toll on Liljegren's season and wonder how much it impacted his play. Still, plenty of red flags. Most are centric to his decision making and maturity level.
 

Doug Prishpreed

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We probably agree that his skating is superb - edge work and agility are top notch. Buffalo needs a mobile defenseman who can move the puck, right?

His shot is money too, what's not to like?

That would be his hockey sense. Sure, we can point at mono taking its toll on Liljegren's season and wonder how much it impacted his play. Still, plenty of red flags. Most are centric to his decision making and maturity level.

There are red flags in terms of hitting his ceiling, or anything close to it, I agree. But with his speed and skating and skills on the transition, I'd say he has a high floor as well. I'd say that he's a good balance of risk/reward at 8.
 

SatanwasaSlovak

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Back in February scouts were praising his hockey sense and he was ranked in the top 3 of this years draft. He struggled this season after contracting mono and now in May some criticize his hockey sense. It's hard to determine how much was on the mono and how much was on him this year.

He's not good enough to handle senior-play yet. That's the problem and if we rush him he will look like Grigorenko did the first time around he got the taste of the NHL.
 

Butt Ox

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There are red flags in terms of hitting his ceiling, or anything close to it, I agree. But with his speed and skating and skills on the transition, I'd say he has a high floor as well. I'd say that he's a good balance of risk/reward at 8.

I would have liked to see him set himself apart from other draft eligibles, but (in my opinion) his peers seem to have closed the gap. Again we can look at the mono issue. Struggling in J20 SuperElit doesn't make me comfortable as a top-ten.

I like Heiskanen as a safer pick. But the lack of defense in this draft should see them (read "them" as quality defenseman) taken ahead of where expected. If TL falls to 8 (and he should) I wouldn't hate taking him. Hopefully anyone who has notions of Liljegren making the show in the next couple of years can temper their expectations.
 

Butt Ox

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He's not good enough to handle senior-play yet. That's the problem and if we rush him he will look like Grigorenko did the first time around he got the taste of the NHL.

How do you feel about Brännström? I figure you have seen/read more of him then those of us Stateside. Anything you could share would be appreciated.
 

UnleashRasmus

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How do you feel about Brännström? I figure you have seen/read more of him then those of us Stateside. Anything you could share would be appreciated.

He screams reach in the mid teens, acceptable in the 20's and perfect at the top of the 2nd round. He has a lot of upside and some teams won't care about where he falls. After the top 3-4, it's open season on how you rank a player. It all depends on who Botterill and his head of amateur scouting decide to go. My player of the draft is Vilardi. I like everything I see and he passes the eye test to me.
 

hizzoner

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THN has Rasmussen going 8th with Liljegren and Valimaki in mid teens.
 

Digable5

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The last Rasmussen we took in the top 10 was a disappointment. That obviously should not have any impact on our choice at 8, but I would hate to see our history repeat itself.
 

Chainshot

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The last Rasmussen we took in the top 10 was a disappointment. That obviously should not have any impact on our choice at 8, but I would hate to see our history repeat itself.

He is similar in a way - big man who does not produce well away from PP.
 
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