OT: 2016 Red Sox/MLB Regular Season V - "And down the stretch they come!"

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DKH

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Very harsh for Farrell, eh? Yeah, Darrell Johnson's managing was right up there with Johnny Pesky and Eddie Kasko. In the 1975 Series he may have been a bit overmatched against Sparky Anderson. But the 1986 World Series may have been the worst managed Series ever with Davey Johnson going against John McNamara.

The baseball Gods would never allow John McNamarra to be the manager of the Red Sox to end the drought. I should have known better.

Johnson letting Lee go back out in game 2 was the killer.

After 3 WS I can watch game 6 and not get queezy

Amazing that Roger Clemens was the starting pitcher in that game and vin Scully called it

Still waiting for Rice to slide in game 6

Had Oil Can been more stable he would have started game 7 or at least come in for 6th. He really screwed himself and us
 

Johnnyduke

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If this team does get to a 5 game series, on paper pomeranz is your #3 starter. Good trade by dombrowski.
 

CDJ

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If this team does get to a 5 game series, on paper pomeranz is your #3 starter. Good trade by dombrowski.

Espinoza is still incredibly age-advanced but he has struggled a bit since the deal. As of now no complaints from me
 

Ten Thousand Hours

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Would anyone take back anything we've done since signing Sandoval?

Porcello extension.
Signing Price.
Signing Chris Young.
Trading for Kimbrel.
Trading for Pomeranz.
Trading for Ziegler or Abad.
 

JEM28

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Nov 24, 2008
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Would anyone take back anything we've done since signing Sandoval?

Porcello extension.
Signing Price.
Signing Chris Young.
Trading for Kimbrel.
Trading for Pomeranz.
Trading for Ziegler or Abad.

Maybe the Pomeranz deal. Very average pitcher having a decent year, so DD gets a woody over him and trades the best Sox P prospect.
 

UNB Bruins Fan

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Pomeranz has been good for a number of years now...he was only really bad while in COL. I'm not going to read too much into a young SP struggling in Denver.
 
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UNB Bruins Fan

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Would anyone take back anything we've done since signing Sandoval?

Porcello extension.
Signing Price.
Signing Chris Young.
Trading for Kimbrel.
Trading for Pomeranz.
Trading for Ziegler or Abad.

I thought the Porcello extension was pretty rich at the time, but probably the price they had to pay to keep the years down and convince him to forgo free agency.
 

Mr Cartmenez

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Would anyone take back anything we've done since signing Sandoval?

Porcello extension.
Signing Price.
Signing Chris Young.
Trading for Kimbrel.
Trading for Pomeranz.
Trading for Ziegler or Abad.

Do you mean in hindsight or from the moment the deals got signed? Hated Sandoval as much as anyone. I was fine with the Hanley-deal since he gave us a bit of a "hometown"-discount and I think the deal will eventually work out. Hanley is going to perform even better with less defensive duties, so I'd recommend making him the fulltime DH next year, he's not that great at 1B.
I didn't like the Porcello-extension without having him throw one pitch in the Red Sox-Uniform.
Price got market value, you either need an ace or you don't. Those contracts don't tend to work out for teams in the long run.

And as far as Pomeranz is concerned. I wouldn't have made the deal at the time, but it's not like DDo got hosed. After having seen Pomeranz for a few months? If you take out the first (two) start/(s) (he was off for 10 days and had to get used to a new team) his numbers here are almost in line with those in SD. He's either a #2 or #3 (at worst). What saved the trade a bit has been the emergence of Kopech (and Espinozas' struggles this year) and the fact that Groome fell into our lap. You could make a case that both are on par with Espinoza as of today. And while Espinozas upside is sky high, I don't see how it's exactly that much higher than Kopechs.
 

DKH

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Three Wrongs & a Wright

Hated both Panda & Hanley deal

Thought the Porcello extension was way to much

Didn't like the Pomeranz trade

Now in hindsight

Hanley has been very good this year - completely changed body going from a D'onta Hightower look to a Patrick Chung/Malcom Butler look

Not sure if Ortiz keeps Hanley in a great mind set but he's been a huge surprise to me. Congrats to him

Sandoval we will find out next year - I think he plays well and shows up in much better shape.

Porcello looks like a 15-17 gams 2/3 starter for years - he's having a Marchand year

Pomeranz I been impressed by - he's pretty good overall. Has plus curve and where I wouldn't have done the deal then I would now

I also can't blame Farrell on the Wright injury - really what the hell was he doing wandering off second

Live and learn but tough loss - if this guy is your 4/5 starter you are in good shape - hopefully it's not a long term injury
 

Mr Cartmenez

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What a great story Sandy Leon has been. He's basically at a point in which you can at least make a legit case for him as the starter next year. Don't think we are talking about a hot streak anymore. Even the numbers without the first X games (say 30) are very robust.
Not to mention his great work behind the plate which comes on a much bigger sample size than his offense.

But knowing that offensive numbers from catchers should be taken with a grain of salt going forward, because they can easily fall off a cliff due to intense workloads (see Wieters for example), it could make sense to see high on him. A package of JBJ and Leon could probably get us in the Sale/Quintana conversation.
 

CDJ

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Do you mean in hindsight or from the moment the deals got signed? Hated Sandoval as much as anyone. I was fine with the Hanley-deal since he gave us a bit of a "hometown"-discount and I think the deal will eventually work out. Hanley is going to perform even better with less defensive duties, so I'd recommend making him the fulltime DH next year, he's not that great at 1B.
I didn't like the Porcello-extension without having him throw one pitch in the Red Sox-Uniform.
Price got market value, you either need an ace or you don't. Those contracts don't tend to work out for teams in the long run.

And as far as Pomeranz is concerned. I wouldn't have made the deal at the time, but it's not like DDo got hosed. After having seen Pomeranz for a few months? If you take out the first (two) start/(s) (he was off for 10 days and had to get used to a new team) his numbers here are almost in line with those in SD. He's either a #2 or #3 (at worst). What saved the trade a bit has been the emergence of Kopech (and Espinozas' struggles this year) and the fact that Groome fell into our lap. You could make a case that both are on par with Espinoza as of today. And while Espinozas upside is sky high, I don't see how it's exactly that much higher than Kopechs.

Espinoza's secondaries are ahead of Kopech's at a younger age and he has better command/control. There is also still a decent chance Kopech ends up as a closer due to some effort in his delivery/secondaries (although his delivery has come a LONG way in terms of getting cleaned up)- that's not to say that's what I think will happen but some evaluators still believe that is a serious possibility
 

CDJ

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What a great story Sandy Leon has been. He's basically at a point in which you can at least make a legit case for him as the starter next year. Don't think we are talking about a hot streak anymore. Even the numbers without the first X games (say 30) are very robust.
Not to mention his great work behind the plate which comes on a much bigger sample size than his offense.

But knowing that offensive numbers from catchers should be taken with a grain of salt going forward, because they can easily fall off a cliff due to intense workloads (see Wieters for example), it could make sense to see high on him. A package of JBJ and Leon could probably get us in the Sale/Quintana conversation.

I don't touch JBJ for Quintana straight up

You can make the argument JBJ is worth close to Sale on his own if you believe what we have gotten from him this year is the player he is. He plays a premium position very well, he's got legit pop, he has tons of team control and he's cheap.

I would think about JBJ and a couple of prospects in the Chavis range...wouldn't do much more than that for Sale IMO (but I'm on the record as being terrified of Sales future medicals so that's not unexpected from me)

Im with you though...Sandy is the biggest surprise for the Sox since possibly Ortiz. This has really come out of nowhere, and it at the very least looks semi-sustainable (not the .350 average, but him being a good hitter)
 
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UNB Bruins Fan

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What a great story Sandy Leon has been. He's basically at a point in which you can at least make a legit case for him as the starter next year. Don't think we are talking about a hot streak anymore. Even the numbers without the first X games (say 30) are very robust.
Not to mention his great work behind the plate which comes on a much bigger sample size than his offense.

But knowing that offensive numbers from catchers should be taken with a grain of salt going forward, because they can easily fall off a cliff due to intense workloads (see Wieters for example), it could make sense to see high on him. A package of JBJ and Leon could probably get us in the Sale/Quintana conversation.

I think you would still have to add a bunch to that to get CHI seriously interested, especially given the extremely team friendly contracts each has. (Everyone knows about Sale's contract, but I never realized Quintana is also under control for 4 more years at less than 40M)

I would give Leon one more year to see if his offense is legit...I'm still skeptical. I would be on board with a combo of Leon + Vazquez/Swihart (with Swihart playing some OF if needed) next year.
 
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Johnnyduke

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My point would be plenty of guys with high upside completely flame out. Add in that espinoza has struggled and seeing what pomeranz has to offer? It's just a trade i do every time.
 

Mr Cartmenez

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Espinoza's secondaries are ahead of Kopech's at a younger age and he has better command/control. There is also still a decent chance Kopech ends up as a closer due to some effort in his delivery/secondaries (although his delivery has come a LONG way in terms of getting cleaned up)- that's not to say that's what I think will happen but some evaluators still believe that is a serious possibility

I wouldn't underestimate Kopechs secondaries, though. Plus his 4 seamer's got the chance to be ++.
Not trying to pick on Espinozas after he got traded, he's still a top notch prospect, but he's got question marks too. People just fell in love with the sound delivery and mechanics.

Kopechs control is funky at this point, but that's not all that surprising. He definitely needs to work on this (otherwise he probably won't make it as SP), but he's already shown swing and miss stuff at a crazy rate. Pitchers like that flame out on a regular basis (recent example of that is Webster), but that's why I said upside and low floor. I would actually say that AE got a higher floor than Kopech's, but the upside is on par.

I don't touch JBJ for Quintana straight up

You can make the argument JBJ is worth close to Sale on his own if you believe what we have gotten from him this year is the player he is. He plays a premium position very well, he's got legit pop, he has tons of team control and he's cheap.

I would think about JBJ and a couple of prospects in the Chavis range...wouldn't do much more than that for Sale IMO (but I'm on the record as being terrified of Sales future medicals so that's not unexpected from me)

You can make that argument, yes, but the White Sox likely won't deal Sale for a position player if the value is close. But they could probably get behind JBJ and another WC in Leon. If his 2016 campaign is legit, they got great value and if not, then they have at least a good defensive catcher and a top notch CF.

It's just a question what the White Sox would rather have. If they deal Sale and Quintana, wouldn't they rather have multiple top prospects? If they want young studs nonetheless, they have to make a deal with us. And from reports right around the deadline, JBJ has been indeed involved in trade talks.

By the way, I think you are severely underrating Quintana. I would easily deal JBJ for Quintana. He's been basically putting up low #1 high #2 numbers for the past 3 years on a great contract and with decent mechanics (unlike Sale).
I seriously doubt the WSox would take that deal. That's why I included a valuable commodity like Leon (or maybe Swihart/Vazquez, whoever they prefer).
 

UNB Bruins Fan

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If we add a SP, who is getting replaced? Wright? E-Rod?

Maybe they could do something around Rodriguez and Devers for Quintana?

I wouldn't have a problem moving Shaw either although I don't know how much value he would have around the league. If they move Shaw that would give them the option of going after a 1B to push Hanley to full time DH or a guy like Encarnacion to split 1B/DH duties.
 

Ten Thousand Hours

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If we add a SP, who is getting replaced? Wright? E-Rod?

Maybe they could do something around Rodriguez and Devers for Quintana?

Yeah, that's the question I was bringing up at the deadline. Obviously Quintana is better than Wright. But losing Wright from the rotation is something we'd have to factor in.
 

CDJ

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I wouldn't underestimate Kopechs secondaries, though. Plus his 4 seamer's got the chance to be ++.
Not trying to pick on Espinozas after he got traded, he's still a top notch prospect, but he's got question marks too. People just fell in love with the sound delivery and mechanics.

Kopechs control is funky at this point, but that's not all that surprising. He definitely needs to work on this (otherwise he probably won't make it as SP), but he's already shown swing and miss stuff at a crazy rate. Pitchers like that flame out on a regular basis (recent example of that is Webster), but that's why I said upside and low floor. I would actually say that AE got a higher floor than Kopech's, but the upside is on par.



You can make that argument, yes, but the White Sox likely won't deal Sale for a position player if the value is close. But they could probably get behind JBJ and another WC in Leon. If his 2016 campaign is legit, they got great value and if not, then they have at least a good defensive catcher and a top notch CF.

It's just a question what the White Sox would rather have. If they deal Sale and Quintana, wouldn't they rather have multiple top prospects? If they want young studs nonetheless, they have to make a deal with us. And from reports right around the deadline, JBJ has been indeed involved in trade talks.

By the way, I think you are severely underrating Quintana. I would easily deal JBJ for Quintana. He's been basically putting up low #1 high #2 numbers for the past 3 years on a great contract and with decent mechanics (unlike Sale).
I seriously doubt the WSox would take that deal. That's why I included a valuable commodity like Leon (or maybe Swihart/Vazquez, whoever they prefer).

I like Quintana a lot. I just thinking having a top 5 CF playing everyday is more valuable than the upgrade Quintana represents in the rotation. I also don't like the idea of moving JBJ for chemistry reasons, and that's an entirely different can of worms.

I actually really like the rotation going forward with the P's at the top and Rodriguez/Wright in the 4/5 spots...especially when considering we have Kopech/Groome in the system along with a handful of other guys who could conceivably be 5's if things break one way or the other (Johnson, Owens...even guys like Stankiewicz, Beeks, and McAvoy who have flashed at times).

Plus there is Buchholz :) ;)
 

EON

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I like Quintana a lot. I just thinking having a top 5 CF playing everyday is more valuable than the upgrade Quintana represents in the rotation. I also don't like the idea of moving JBJ for chemistry reasons, and that's an entirely different can of worms.

I actually really like the rotation going forward with the P's at the top and Rodriguez/Wright in the 4/5 spots...especially when considering we have Kopech/Groome in the system along with a handful of other guys who could conceivably be 5's if things break one way or the other (Johnson, Owens...even guys like Stankiewicz, Beeks, and McAvoy who have flashed at times).

Plus there is Buchholz :) ;)

I agree, I don't think there is a pressing need to address the starting rotation this offseason.

Price
Porcello
Pomeranz
Wright
ERod/Bucholz

is a pretty solid top 5/6 guys.

Plus I wouldn't want to move anyone important from the lineup out with the loss of Ortiz. Lineup possibly looking something like:

1B Shaw/Sandoval?
2B Pedroia
SS Bogaerts
3B Moncada
LF Benintendi
CF Bradley Jr.
RF Betts
DH Ramirez
C Leon
Hill/Holt/Vazquez/Young on the bench

Now the bullpen.....
 
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