Line Combos: 2016-2017 Kings Roster

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I think GM Chevy would do it if you threw in Brown, Scuderi, Greene, and ADT.

Based on that scenario, I'll trade you -

Honda Civic that doesn't run
Ford Fiesta that runs, but breaks down half the time
Original Toyota Prius
Tesla Model 3
Ford Focus RS
A random unknown car to be released in 2018.

In exchange for a 991 GT3 RS.

Quantity ≠ quality. If I send you a ton of trash, you won't send me back something worthwhile. And that's exactly what that package mostly is - trash.

McNabb, Clifford, and Lewis get you a game used stick.

Trading picks to get rid of Brown is worse than buying him out. The Kings winger depth right now is absolutely deplorable. Outside of Toffoli, this team doesn't have one winger worth a damn. The last thing the Kings should be doing is trading draft picks, let alone the ones that would make trading Brown possible.

With all that's deplorable in the world, I'm very happy the word "Deplorable" is having a comeback.

Basilisk: Don't worry, we're all stressed out about the Brown contract. People are grieving in different ways. We may be stuck with it, unless Brown goes on a fishing trip with Stoll & Richards this offseason.
 
For me, this is the MOST I would give up for Trouba, and everybody here would HATE it.....

To Jets:

McNabb
Clifford
Lewis
Lintuniemi
Amadio <--- These two italicized items I did not mention on the main board.....
1st round pick (2018)

To Kings:

Trouba
Lowry
Pavelec (50%) retained AND he goes straight to the minors.....

Send Vegas 3-4 picks over the next couple of drafts to take Brown at the expansion draft....

Trade Martinez @ the 2017 draft for picks....

I can't tell what's real here and what isn't. What do guys like McNabb, Clifford, or Lewis do for the Jets? A 1st in 2018? If Trouba is any good, you can't trade for him by sending the bottom of your roster the other way.

Send Vegas 3-4 picks over the next few years to take 100% of Brown's horrible contract? Let me guess, 5th and 6th round picks?

Incidentally, is the expansion draft BEFORE or AFTER the regular draft? The timing of this is crucial!

Before.

That package doesn't get us a Dodger dog let alone Trouba, so yes we will continue with what we have for the foreseeable future. Of course some will whine like they always do while other will be forever optimistic ... Over reliance on a seniority/loyalty system is whats hurting us right now, King, Nolan, Greene etc shouldn't be sniffing PT! heck they've out lived their usefulness on this current team... We need a NFL like approach where we have to accept the the average effectiveness of a player in our system is 4-6 for role players that are pounding away at their bodies.... kids like Forbort, Gravel, Amadio, Mersch and Kempe are the reinforcements this team sorely needs not a band aid trade that will further deplete this team of needed resources...yes i used band aid because we have minimal cap space for the next couple years..

If Brown was still a 20 goal, 50 point guy, and they knew what they would get from Gaborik, these role player problems wouldn't be nearly as bad. Not saying it's not an issue(the Kings are a mix of many issues), but Brown's production/contract ratio is the bigger issue than pretty much anything else.
 
That package of McNabb, Clifford, Lewis, Lintuniemi, Amadio and a 1st should land Connor McDavid. Might have to add Jordan Nolan though to make it seem fair.
 
the real question is

why are we still relying on Clifford, Nolan, King, Lewis, Greene, McNabb, and Andreoff for hockey???

Andreoff is ok though
 
I'm going to go ahead and re-insist--based on facts I've posted and their actual play--that the bottom six is a weird place to focus ire.

Yes, there are redundancies. No, they're not the problem.
 
Do you not believe our Cup Window is now? :amazed:

our cup window got slammed shut after that ****** loss to EDM that got us eliminated two seasons back

since then, I've been advocating a proper (re)tool but the "2 cups bro" argument is allllll that is wrong with modern 'Muriiicaaaa!
 
I'm going to go ahead and re-insist--based on facts I've posted and their actual play--that the bottom six is a weird place to focus ire.

Yes, there are redundancies. No, they're not the problem.

you know what's wrong

is that you think they are bottom 6 players

if Sutter doesn't know how to play with toys, confiscate the toys!

I don't mind Dwight King on the 4th line or 3rd

but i mind it when he's on the 1st

i don't mind if McNabb is our #6 or #7

i mind it when's he's our top pairing D

i'd rather try guys like dowd, gravel, ladue, kempe, mersch etc

if you confiscate from LA McNabb & King then, there won't be a McNabb or King to plug on a top line!

so yes our ****** bottom 6 and bottom D IS the problem because unlike other rosters, they don't stay on the damn bottom...they keep trickling up the lines like a video... of fecal matter trickling down someone's pants but put on rewind, :dunno: i dunno hard to come up with an analogy when i keep staring at ****!
 
I hope it doesn't take Sutter getting fired to see this starting roster by December

Pearson Kopitar Toffoli
Mersch Carter Kempe
Gaborik Dowd Purcell
Andreoff Lewis Shore

Doughty Muzzin
McNabb Martinez
Gilbert LaDue
 
I'm going to go ahead and re-insist--based on facts I've posted and their actual play--that the bottom six is a weird place to focus ire.

Yes, there are redundancies. No, they're not the problem.

I'd say they're part of the problem, but not the core issue with this team. The stupid penalties and how often they're on the ice for goals against and stupid, costly turnovers is nothing to scoff at.

The bottom pairing has also been a nightmare, in addition to how poorly the rest of the blueline has been.
 
Why wouldn't Sutter put Andreoff-Dowd-Purcell on that 4th line instead of Nolan? Is he really that down on Teddy already.

Because Pearson is coming to 2nd line as a LW one of the earlier top 6 must sit, it's Sutter way it's not like a big news anymore.
 
the real question is

why are we still relying on Clifford, Nolan, King, Lewis, Greene, McNabb, and Andreoff for hockey???

Andreoff is ok though

one or two of Clifford/Nolan/King could be traded, Lewis is still very valuable, Greene is a corpse on skates, McNabb/Andreoff still have value
 
I hope it doesn't take Sutter getting fired to see this starting roster by December

Pearson Kopitar Toffoli
Mersch Carter Kempe
Gaborik Dowd Purcell
Andreoff Lewis Shore


Doughty Muzzin
McNabb Martinez
Gilbert LaDue

that's as sexy as we can be

except switch Lewis with Shore and throw Shore off a bridge

also, do the same to Gilbert & McNabb (the bridge part, no need to switch them around for each other)
 
I hope it doesn't take Sutter getting fired to see this starting roster by December

Pearson Kopitar Toffoli
Mersch Carter Kempe
Gaborik Dowd Purcell
Andreoff Lewis Shore

Doughty Muzzin
McNabb Martinez
Gilbert LaDue

I don't get it. What's the plan with that roster? I still don't see it doing anything in the playoffs or making the playoffs for that matter.
 
2014 - If they go out to the Sharks then the way they went out to the Sharks last year, I think we see a bigger change then. Richards bought out, Greene gone, even Gaborik gone.

2015 - If they don't give that glimmer of hope, Lombardi doesn't go after Sekera, because everything got messed up in October of 2014. If they managed to at least make the playoffs, the 1st round pick goes to Carolina in 2015 instead of 2016. Because it went in 2016, I think Lombardi felt the need to at least make the playoffs in 2016, and went after Lucic.

2016 - I think what's happening now would've been what happened in 2014. Let guys go, bring in semi warm bodies, and sort of reset.

The downside of the insane 2014 run is that Lombardi believed in the players too much after that. There was nothing they couldn't do, regardless of the circumstance. He gave them a chance as defending champs, they couldn't do it, the Lucic deal was a result missing the playoffs as defending champs, and now Lombardi is looking at the team more realistically. Unless he trades any significant picks or prospects. If he wants to get a goalie while Quick is out, ok, as long as it's for a conditional 7th rounder. With the results over the last 171 games, this roster isn't worth investing in.
 
I can't tell what's real here and what isn't. What do guys like McNabb, Clifford, or Lewis do for the Jets? A 1st in 2018? If Trouba is any good, you can't trade for him by sending the bottom of your roster the other way.

Send Vegas 3-4 picks over the next few years to take 100% of Brown's horrible contract? Let me guess, 5th and 6th round picks?



Before.



If Brown was still a 20 goal, 50 point guy, and they knew what they would get from Gaborik, these role player problems wouldn't be nearly as bad. Not saying it's not an issue(the Kings are a mix of many issues), but Brown's production/contract ratio is the bigger issue than pretty much anything else.

even if brownie was still a 50 pt guy how would that improve our bottom 6 especially our 3rd line which just doesn't produce???? Contract be damned, we have kids down on the farm that are really close to contributing but won't because they aren't giving a real shot... Sutter for all he's done is no different than Dean in their undying loyalty to guys that no longer have that pep in their step but since they know the system they play....If i wasn't clear enough here i go again, King and Nolan came up and gave it their all and helped us when 2 cups but they're not the same players anymore do to injuries and just wear and tear so similar players need to be brought up to replace them.. Mersch is much better than King or Nolan but he won't be up anytime soon.... same for Kempe whose speed and abilities we could easily use, and of course Gravel and Forbort are much better than Greene, McNabb(whom i was really rooting for) and Gilbert........
 
even if brownie was still a 50 pt guy how would that improve our bottom 6 especially our 3rd line which just doesn't produce???? Contract be damned, we have kids down on the farm that are really close to contributing but won't because they aren't giving a real shot... Sutter for all he's done is no different than Dean in their undying loyalty to guys that no longer have that pep in their step but since they know the system they play....If i wasn't clear enough here i go again, King and Nolan came up and gave it their all and helped us when 2 cups but they're not the same players anymore do to injuries and just wear and tear so similar players need to be brought up to replace them.. Mersch is much better than King or Nolan but he won't be up anytime soon.... same for Kempe whose speed and abilities we could easily use, and of course Gravel and Forbort are much better than Greene, McNabb(whom i was really rooting for) and Gilbert........

Stuck down on the ****ing farm!

 
even if brownie was still a 50 pt guy how would that improve our bottom 6 especially our 3rd line which just doesn't produce????

At least they would have another guy that can score, as opposed to the 3rd/4th line version of Brown making $6m. Right now, the 3rd line can't score, and 10 goal Brown is on the 1st line because he makes 1st line money.

Contract be damned, we have kids down on the farm that are really close to contributing but won't because they aren't giving a real shot...

Except it's not contracts be damned. It's more like, damn contracts.

Sutter for all he's done is no different than Dean in their undying loyalty to guys that no longer have that pep in their step but since they know the system they play

There's probably some of that, but I'm sure there are questions about the young guys too. Maybe no other team wants to trade for Nolan, or Clifford, or King, or Greene. Are they all going to be sent to the minors? No. No team does that. It never hurts young guys to play more AHL games. Martinez and Voynov played 3 years after being drafted before they got a real chance. Muzzin's first games as a King? In October and November of 2010. 2010! He played another 100+ AHL games before getting into the lineup.

If i wasn't clear enough here i go again, King and Nolan came up and gave it their all and helped us when 2 cups but they're not the same players anymore do to injuries and just wear and tear so similar players need to be brought up to replace them.. Mersch is much better than King or Nolan but he won't be up anytime soon.... same for Kempe whose speed and abilities we could easily use, and of course Gravel and Forbort are much better than Greene, McNabb(whom i was really rooting for) and Gilbert........

Greene isn't in the same situation as Scuderi, so it'll be tough to put him in the minors. There's still a decent cap hit. Gilbert could be sent down with about the league minimum on the cap. Forbort and McNabb are already getting minutes. I'd rather see Gravel playing too, but again, it doesn't hurt to play in the AHL.
 
I'll give you a hint; what's wrong isn't in the message, it's in the attitude towards others.

:handclap: It also doesn't help that the same people have been relentlessly negative about EVERYTHING for years. Also, repeating the same gripes over and over and over doesn't make for great reading either.

We all know what the problems/issues are with the team. Some focus on the Kopitar/Carter/Toffoli/Doughty/Muzzin/Quick core that is as good as any in the league and see a potential path to success and others focus on the bottom 6, the bottom 3 D and Brown's contract and see nothing but doom. And at least offer potential (realistic) solutions if you do rather than just complaining.

I'm not a Pollyanna but I prefer to focus on the potential positives when it comes to the teams I root for. I've never quite understood how people can focus constantly on the negative in a pastime that is supposed to be FUN. Sure, all us fans ***** and moan periodically but if you're not enjoying rooting for your team, why the hell are you spending all that time and $ doing it?

A lot of it just may be how people come across on the internet. My guess is if I ran into most of the negative types here at a game, they probably are having a good time and rooting loudly for the Kings just like me. I know from personal experience here and at other sites that I often come across way different than I do in real life. The subtleties in tone and inflection when you say something in person (especially when you have a smartass-type sense of humor) are often lost in an internet post. In person, I am a pretty easy-going guy and almost never get into interpersonal conflicts and yet on the internet I have had people absolutely go OFF on me like I'm the biggest a-hole ever.

I'm going to go ahead and re-insist--based on facts I've posted and their actual play--that the bottom six is a weird place to focus ire.

Yes, there are redundancies. No, they're not the problem.

And yet the bottom 6 and the bottom pair D are almost the sole focus of the negativity around here.
 
And yet the bottom 6 and the bottom pair D are almost the sole focus of the negativity around here.

Thought this was interesting from the main board:

I was bored today... so got thinking... what has been the 'average' cup finalist line-up over the last few years. I.E. what calibre of player do they have at each position.

Ofc this is a difficult question, but I figured that by averaging their most regular guys at each positions PPG to 82 games, then getting a median and mean of all the players on each cup finalist over the last few years could make an approximation.

I must note here that I was not looking for just how many PPG they got that year... if a player had an injury for example and missed significant time before coming back in playoffs and had a noticeable down year between two better years I would use the years either sides average, as I was looking at the 'calibre' of players. Also guys who were traded at deadline I used overall stats from the year.

Also I did not put all the players in the actual positions/lines they played, but instead the individual who got most PPG. (so if one team had a LW who was top scorer and another who had RW would simply list each as the '#1W' for that team, same with LD & RD, would just list as '#1D', obviously a bit easier for centres.)

The teams I used were from the 2011 cup final to the 2016 cup final (years when regular season scoring has not been tooooo different)... so 12 total teams.

Here are the results (median P/82 of the players):

69.5pts -- 76.5pts -- 59pts
50.5pts -- 57pts -- 44.5pts
38.5pts -- 31pts -- 29.5pts
21.5pts -- 19pts -- 15pts

46.5pts -- 32.5pts
28pts -- 21.5pts
16.5pts -- 11.5pts

.923 sv%
.922 sv%

What surprised me was the median points for the top 4 Dmen... thought it would be higher.

The mean results as well for comparison:

74.92pts -- 75.25pts -- 58.83pts
50.75pts -- 56pts -- 44.58pts
38.08pts -- 32.92pts -- 30pts
20.75pts -- 20pts -- 15.50pts

48.58pts -- 35.08pts
27.42pts -- 22.25pts
16.92pts -- 12.33pts

.923 sv%
.925 sv%

Surprising that the mean backup sv% is higher... but it is really driven by ~3 guys, Jones, Talbot & Darling being all above .930... only 1 starter was, Thomas.


Hope you all find this interesting. I mean... it does not account for defensive ability really, but still shows something!

Last year's Kings:

Lucic (55) - Kopitar (74) - Gaborik (on pace for 33 lol)
Pearson (36) - Carter (62) - Toffoli (58)
King (22 pace) - Lecavalier? (33 pace) - Brown (28)
Lewis? (16) - Clifford 13 pace - Andreoff 14 pace etc all about the same down here.

Doughty 51 - Muzzin 40
Martinez 31 - McNabb 14
Schenn 11 - Ehrhoff 10 etc.

I probably could have followed his model better since he literally just ranked by points not 'actual' position but yeah. Not far off at all. Note that he points out in a later post that "high" # on the third line is exactly what I pointed out elsehwere, that the cup winners often make a deadline or other deal that bumps a 'top sixer' down the lineup to a more natural spot and that they often get their points on top lines (aka they're the "Brown" type lineup floater).
 
Yeah, that is Not true.

Care to show me some facts? I've gone back and shown them a couple of times. Not going to do it again.

The bottom six is not a problem in and of itself; it is a problem when bottom sixers have to play top six, or when the top six itself isn't getting it done.

Everyone wants to blame the playoffs on depth now which is revisionist history to a degree as it was our top guys who got annihilated (though it can be argued that they were fatigued/dead due to depth).
 
Thought this was interesting from the main board:



Last year's Kings:

Lucic (55) - Kopitar (74) - Gaborik (on pace for 33 lol)
Pearson (36) - Carter (62) - Toffoli (58)
King (22 pace) - Lecavalier? (33 pace) - Brown (28)
Lewis? (16) - Clifford 13 pace - Andreoff 14 pace etc all about the same down here.

Doughty 51 - Muzzin 40
Martinez 31 - McNabb 14
Schenn 11 - Ehrhoff 10 etc.

I probably could have followed his model better since he literally just ranked by points not 'actual' position but yeah. Not far off at all. Note that he points out in a later post that "high" # on the third line is exactly what I pointed out elsehwere, that the cup winners often make a deadline or other deal that bumps a 'top sixer' down the lineup to a more natural spot and that they often get their points on top lines (aka they're the "Brown" type lineup floater).

Been discused to death,

Yet people really do think bottom six rosters (other than the Kings of course) are littered with 15-20+ goal scorers.

It's not even close to that, it's hard to score in the NHL for even top six players.
 
Did you know, you can count 40 goal scorers the year had, on one hand, every year since 2009-10 season.

Basically, if you have a bottom six player that gives you 8-11 ES goals, that's a banner year for a bottom six player.
 
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