2016-2017 Kings Roster Talk Part III

[Choralone]

The silver lining to this season is seeing our D shape up nicely with a good, young group. We're in really strong shape there going forward, I think. Seeing Kempe up and starting to fit in is a bonus.

 

[KINGS17]

Tough to find a GM that actually works that way voluntarily.

To go down the moneypuck road, the last good trades Lombardi made were in June 2008. Cammalleri for a 1st is good, but then you have to pick a better player. Got Stoll and Greene for Visnovsky, so 2 for 1 as you have Doughty taking over for Visnovsky. So really 3 for 1. Everything since then has been the wrong move in a cap world. No young asset should be traded for an older one. Carter is now 32. Whoever would've been the Kings pick in 2013 would only be 22 right now. That's still 5 years until he's a UFA.

It's not moneypuck. If Kopitar would have signed for 5 years and $45M, I probably would have been on board.

Dean tried to negotiate and hit a brick wall. That's when you deal with reality, when a player and his agent are being unreasonable.

Now our only hope as a fan base is:

a. Kopitar starts playing like he did when he was 24-26 years of age.

b. A newly negotiated CBA in a few years gets us off the hook.

Again, we'll never know what the Kings could have been with Carter at the 1C on a great cap hit, along with all the assets a Kopitar trade would have provided.

Now if Dean wants to start a rebuild, which he should in my opinion, he likely has to move his best contract.

 

[Winger23]

Kopitar has a down year and you're ready to lose him for nothing?

Unbelievable.

Having a month or 2 slump is one thing, but to say he had a down year is an understatement. You can't be competitive with your highest paid player producing like a 4th liner. People wanted brown gone for the same production making over half less than kopi.

I don't buy the just a down year part. What is he showing you that believes he will turn it around next year? Every aspect of his game has dropped off a cliff with his stats supporting it. It's not like the guy is snake bitten, he just looks like he's going through the motions.

So yes, I'm ready to dump all the high contracts on the team especially if it means being able to retain guys like forbort kempe etc. It's a mute point though since they are forced to protect him as others have pointed out before

Edit. I just wanted to say nothing would make me happier if kopi regained his form, I love the dude. I'm just being realistic on my expectations and my gut is telling me they need to rebuild.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Having a month or 2 slump is one thing, but to say he had a down year is an understatement. You can't be competitive with your highest paid player producing like a 4th liner. People wanted brown gone for the same production making over half less than kopi.

I don't buy the just a down year part. What is he showing you that believes he will turn it around next year? Every aspect of his game has dropped off a cliff with his stats supporting it. It's not like the guy is snake bitten, he just looks like he's going through the motions.

So yes, I'm ready to dump all the high contracts on the team especially if it means being able to retain guys like forbort kempe etc. It's a mute point though since they are forced to protect him as others have pointed out before

Edit. I just wanted to say nothing would make me happier if kopi regained his form, I love the dude. I'm just being realistic on my expectations and my gut is telling me they need to rebuild.

I think when this year is the absolute outlier to his entire career and given everything we know about his personality I'm willing to be he'll bounce back. Doubt he's an 81 point player ever again, but no one in any hockey circle would have predicted a Kopitar crash.Because that's what this is--it's not a decline, it's a flatline.

It's not moneypuck. If Kopitar would have signed for 5 years and $45M, I probably would have been on board.

Dean tried to negotiate and hit a brick wall. That's when you deal with reality, when a player and his agent are being unreasonable.

Now our only hope as a fan base is:

a. Kopitar starts playing like he did when he was 24-26 years of age.

b. A newly negotiated CBA in a few years gets us off the hook.

Again, we'll never know what the Kings could have been with Carter at the 1C on a great cap hit, along with all the assets a Kopitar trade would have provided.

Now if Dean wants to start a rebuild, which he should in my opinion, he likely has to move his best contract.

Genuine question--what star/high-profile UFA-to-be in the last while has signed a 5-year or less deal? I can't think of one. I'm really asking because I don't know, it's not a rhetorical question. In other words, what GMs are getting it right?

 

[KINGS17]

I think when this year is the absolute outlier to his entire career and given everything we know about his personality I'm willing to be he'll bounce back. Doubt he's an 81 point player ever again, but no one in any hockey circle would have predicted a Kopitar crash.Because that's what this is--it's not a decline, it's a flatline.



Genuine question--what star/high-profile UFA-to-be in the last while has signed a 5-year or less deal? I can't think of one.

Not sure what personality traits you see in Kopitar the rest of us are missing. Kopitar has succeeded in the past in large part to his superior athletic ability and size.

You want to win, or have your GM be a lemming?

BTW, Joe Thornton has signed a series of 3-year deals in San Jose starting in 2008-09. Marleau has signed multiple 3-year deals in San Jose, and one 4-year deal going way back.

Looking forward to the day when the NHL has NFL-style contracts.

 

[Brodeur]

How many college FAs have we signed over the years? It's certainly not many.

Years ago, my friend got set up on a date with a college hockey player who told her he had just signed a million dollar contract with the Kings. She called me to verify whether his story was legit, at which point I had to explain to her the concept of a two way contract. Technically he wasn't lying, but he wasn't likely to crack the Kings lineup and would thus earn significantly less.

If I recall correctly, she turned him down for a second date. He ended up in the ECHL despite assurances he claimed that he got from Andy Murray that he'd be competing for an NHL spot. [/randomanecdote]

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You want to win, or have your GM be a lemming?

BTW, Joe Thornton has signed a series of 3-year deals in San Jose starting in 2008-09. Marleau has signed multiple 3-year deals in San Jose, and one 4-year deal going way back.

Looking forward to the day when the NHL has NFL-style contracts.

So every NHL GM is a nitwit other than Doug Wilson? Is that your response? I'll look at the contracts myself then. Let's see what kind of UFA sweetheart deals I can find.

Edit:

Patrick Sharp 5 years, 5.9 million is too much, but at least the term is right. Radulov is probably a good one but consider the circumstance. Sekera is maybe good value if a little overpaid. Jbouw maybe? 5 years, 5.4. Any lower than that is Nielsen/Cammalleri territory where you start to find the 5-year and less deals you're discussing but those players aren't even remotely similar impact as who we are discussing.

 

[KINGS17]

So every NHL GM is a nitwit? Is that your response? I'll look at the contracts myself then. Let's see what kind of UFA sweetheart deals I can find.

When it comes to long term deals for players in their late 20's? Pretty much.

GMs are pretty dumb. It's why the owner's have a lockout every time there is a new CBA to be negotiated. The GMs just can't help themselves.

You don't need to find UFA sweetheart deals unless the UFA is signing with his current team. They don't exist for players hitting the open market. It's why you make a trade and let another GM make the mistake.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

When it comes to long term deals for players in their late 20's? Pretty much.

GMs are pretty dumb. It's why the owner's have a lockout every time there is a new CBA to be negotiated. The GMs just can't help themselves.

You don't need to find UFA sweetheart deals unless the UFA is signing with his current team. They don't exist for players hitting the open market. It's why you make a trade and let another GM make the mistake.

I don't disagree with the boldfaced really but operating like that with no exceptions means you trade Crosby right now and pray that some of the assets you trade him for eventually turn into a remote semblance of what he can bring. Do you not see why that's problematic at all? Crosby obviously > Kopitar, but we have Kopitar-Doughty-Quick in similar "Incredibly hard to replace if not impossible" territory.

In addition, even if some GM does that, he's kissing his job goodbye to help out the next guy. I don't know any employee anywhere that's gonna do that...so I'd argue it's less 'they can't help themselves' and more 'their job is to not simply kill themselves because their players turn into adults'.

 

[KINGS17]

I don't disagree with the boldfaced really but operating like that with no exceptions means you trade Crosby right now and pray that some of the assets you trade him for eventually turn into a remote semblance of what he can bring. Do you not see why that's problematic at all? Crosby obviously > Kopitar, but we have Kopitar-Doughty-Quick in similar "Incredibly hard to replace if not impossible" territory.

In addition, even if some GM does that, he's kissing his job goodbye to help out the next guy. I don't know any employee anywhere that's gonna do that...so I'd argue it's less 'they can't help themselves' and more 'their job is to not simply kill themselves because their players turn into adults'.

No, because Crosby is a lot like Carter. He is on a 12-year deal with a great cap hit, and he is still producing. I never said don't make any exceptions, I would not made an exception in the case of Anze Kopitar.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, because Crosby is a lot like Carter. He is on a 12-year deal with a great cap hit, and he is still producing. I never said don't make any exceptions, I would not made an exception in the case of Anze Kopitar.

Well yeah but Crosby signed that deal a long time ago in a different market and supplements it with endorsement deals as well.

Theoretically if Crosby were our UFA right now, would you give him a Kopitar contract?

 

[funky]

This year has been a right off in terms of going after a cup but a lot of us knew that before the season started. Everyone is all over cope with her, someone him gone in a trade, others want him exposed to Vegas, and he has even been compared to a fourth line player.

In my mind everyone has to take a deep breath and think where this team would be without him taking on the other top lines, Best defensive forwards, and other massive body sentiments like Thorton, Handzal, etc.

Lombardi has built this team with a majority of non-skill, all hustle players. Sitters system demands them to be in top physical shape from game one to game 82. Sutters style also allows them not to make any type of mistake that leads to a goal or else they can kiss the game goodbye in most cases. It's a system that wears and Breakstone other teams in the playoffs but what is it doing to our own players who played 82 games a year during the regular season?

Lipitor, quick, Muzzin, Gabruch, Nolan and Toffolihave all suffered bad enough interest for them to miss a large chunk of games this season. I am including Kopitar in this group as it was very evident he came back when he was still injured as seen by the large brace on his arm. Missing that amount of time Texas players out of the game shape no matter how fit they were prior and makes it almost impossible to catch up in Sutters system and that's why I believe we have seen the big drop in their productivity.

Lombardi made two moves to address new energy and skill into this lineup at trade deadline were acquiring a back up goalie and a 40-year-old winger with his best days behind him. I like these moves because it didn't cost us any of our good assets, the few we do have, and it showed me that our management did not leave enough in this team either to sacrifice assets.

What we did establish this year was three young defenceman that have proven themselves and Sean that our defence going forward should be set at a relatively cheap cost. Memos has proven to be better at the NHL level then the AHL level as some on the site predicted, not me as I was very worried how he was progressing.

Going into next year I see are two major problems as being the architecture of this team as well as how old is coached. I think these problems are every bit as important as Brown and Gabruch's horrible contracts.

No one can ever take away from Lombardi and Sutter have given this franchise but it is time for both of them to step down and turn it over to more forward thinkers.

The expansion draft will not hurt us in anyway as any player that is giving up is not a core piece. We may even get lucky enough that Vegas text Brown or Gabby. We did set ourselves up well with the bishop angle as Vegas may sign him in the free agent period.

This team is not a competitor as it sits but it is also only a few pieces off. We have lots of good things to look forward to

 

[Davit17]

"VAN/EDM amongst teams told they're out on college UFA F Zach Aston-Reese (Northeastern). Looks like PIT is odds-on favourite to land him." Bob Mckenzie

how hard can it be to get a young kid to come play hockey in LA?



Yup, they got him...

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

"VAN/EDM amongst teams told they're out on college UFA F Zach Aston-Reese (Northeastern). Looks like PIT is odds-on favourite to land him." Bob Mckenzie

how hard can it be to get a young kid to come play hockey in LA?



Yup, they got him...

VERY hard. Long ways away from home, Kings out of the playoffs, potential coach and GM shake-up, high taxes, etc.

 

[KINGS17]

Well yeah but Crosby signed that deal a long time ago in a different market and supplements it with endorsement deals as well.

Theoretically if Crosby were our UFA right now, would you give him a Kopitar contract?

Would I make an exception for the best player in the world? Probably.

 

[KingsFan7824]

It's not moneypuck. If Kopitar would have signed for 5 years and $45M, I probably would have been on board.

Dean tried to negotiate and hit a brick wall. That's when you deal with reality, when a player and his agent are being unreasonable.

Now our only hope as a fan base is:

a. Kopitar starts playing like he did when he was 24-26 years of age.

b. A newly negotiated CBA in a few years gets us off the hook.

Again, we'll never know what the Kings could have been with Carter at the 1C on a great cap hit, along with all the assets a Kopitar trade would have provided.

Now if Dean wants to start a rebuild, which he should in my opinion, he likely has to move his best contract.

But all those assets a Kopitar trade would have provided are a complete unknown. Who is trading for Kopitar when they would then have to give him a giant contract? And is this trading him last year? At the deadline? Is Toronto giving you their 1st round pick? Is a contender giving you their best young and cheap players for a few weeks of Kopitar at 50% retained? Who are these assets? The time to trade Kopitar was between June of 2014 and June of 2015, when he was still on a good contract.

1) Carter and ?
2) Kopitar and Carter

That question mark needs to be filled in before thoughts of what could've been with Carter as the #1 can be thought of.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Would I make an exception for the best player in the world? Probably.

You'd have to, right? Because ultimately, he's irreplaceable. And the value he brings to a franchise...etc.

I know Kopitar isn't that guy but ultimately this is about the perceived 'replaceability' of Kopitar. I don't want us to spin in circles again because we obviously just have a philosophical disagreement and that's ok, but to me, I feel like a player like him will only come along (for this franchise, I should say) every 20 years or so. A healthy, in-shape Jason Allison may be similar in a short burst, but he wasn't drafted by us anyway. Same with Gretzky. Who would be the last franchise-style center the Kings drafted?

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

Mild break for the players to talk about the Kings' roster of dogs.

 

[scramble91]

You'd have to, right? Because ultimately, he's irreplaceable. And the value he brings to a franchise...etc.

I know Kopitar isn't that guy but ultimately this is about the perceived 'replaceability' of Kopitar. I don't want us to spin in circles again because we obviously just have a philosophical disagreement and that's ok, but to me, I feel like a player like him will only come along (for this franchise, I should say) every 20 years or so. A healthy, in-shape Jason Allison may be similar in a short burst, but he wasn't drafted by us anyway. Same with Gretzky. Who would be the last franchise-style center the Kings drafted?

Of course, we should have traded kopitar before his contract as we could have had Jeff Carter as the no 1 and could have had the mighty Riley Sheehan as our up and coming no 2. How would have that worked out for us

K17- that's a whole new level of arrogance saying basically every gm is an idiot. Yet you never come up with ANY viable solutions or scenarios that are based in reality (like your infatuation with Riley who now is almost a bust). it's not an easy job to balance long term solutions with a short term requirement to win. Anyone on the internet can second guess..

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I just think if you play K17's scenario out to it's logical end--no one pays the players until SOMEONE pays the player--Kopitar sits until someone offers him a 5 year 5 mil contract and then the agents accuse the GMs of collusion.

 

[KingsFan7824]

I just think if you play K17's scenario out to it's logical end--no one pays the players until SOMEONE pays the player--Kopitar sits until someone offers him a 5 year 5 mil contract and then the agents accuse the GMs of collusion.

Good players will always have the upper hand when it comes to being a UFA. It's a no win situation for a franchise. You can pay him, and probably not get more production from him for more money, or get less production for more money. You can not pay him, and then he either walks or gets traded, probably not getting equal value either way.

 

[KINGS17]

But all those assets a Kopitar trade would have provided are a complete unknown. Who is trading for Kopitar when they would then have to give him a giant contract? And is this trading him last year? At the deadline? Is Toronto giving you their 1st round pick? Is a contender giving you their best young and cheap players for a few weeks of Kopitar at 50% retained? Who are these assets? The time to trade Kopitar was between June of 2014 and June of 2015, when he was still on a good contract.

1) Carter and ?
2) Kopitar and Carter

That question mark needs to be filled in before thoughts of what could've been with Carter as the #1 can be thought of.

I advocated moving Kopitar long before the deadline last season.

I presented several possibilities regarding the assets Dean might have obtained for Kopitar last season. It's water under the bridge now. Are you saying a player of Kopitar's stature in the eyes of many around here wouldn't have yielded a very good return?

 

[KINGS17]

Of course, we should have traded kopitar before his contract as we could have had Jeff Carter as the no 1 and could have had the mighty Riley Sheehan as our up and coming no 2. How would have that worked out for us

K17- that's a whole new level of arrogance saying basically every gm is an idiot. Yet you never come up with ANY viable solutions or scenarios that are based in reality (like your infatuation with Riley who now is almost a bust). it's not an easy job to balance long term solutions with a short term requirement to win. Anyone on the internet can second guess..

Did I say every GM is an idiot? No. In Dean's case he should have made an assessment of whether or not a run is over without involving emotions.

I made many suggestions. A trade for Sheehan plus was just one of them. It didn't have to be Sheehan, so please don't misrepresent what I said by using the term "infatuation". That's ridiculous. Not sure why it's my responsibility to pinpoint exactly what the trade should have been. The Kings employ pro and amateur scouts. It's Dean's job to have at least explored some possible moves.

And I didn't second guess. Second guessing would be if I came in here today saying it was a bad idea to give Kopitar 8 years and $80M. I didn't do that, I said it was a bad idea in the summer of 2015.

 

[KINGS17]

I just think if you play K17's scenario out to it's logical end--no one pays the players until SOMEONE pays the player--Kopitar sits until someone offers him a 5 year 5 mil contract and then the agents accuse the GMs of collusion.

Not every GM is logical. You just want the GM of your team to use logic.

 

[KingTrouty]

I advocated moving Kopitar long before the deadline last season.

I presented several possibilities regarding the assets Dean might have obtained for Kopitar last season. It's water under the bridge now. Are you saying a player of Kopitar's stature in the eyes of many around here wouldn't have yielded a very good return?

Thine child, you contradict the bolded with every post you make on the subject.