Speculation: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part II
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SA16
Sixstring
Pretty much this (the first paragraph) bu he's worth more than 4.5
That's the top 5 players above/below Brassard last year in points as per nhl.com removing guys on ELC or first time arbitration type awards and guys that definitely weren't centers like Cammalleri. I also included what the overall groups average % cap space they took up at the time they signed and showed what that would be in todays cap (5.1M). The CHEAPEST one of those contracts (Vermette: 6.31% of cap) would come out to 4.35M cap hit if signed now. Only Vermette and Jokinen would come in below 4.5M if signed now and Jokinen is the worst comparable on this list since he signed very short term deals at an older age.
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He needs to be on a tradeable contract if he's signed to term. That is an absolute must. In 6 seasons in the NHL he hasn't ever taken hold of a top 6 center role, played on PK, gone up against top competition every night, or produced consistently.
It's like paying JMoore top 4 D money when's never proven to be a top 4 D. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but same concept.
Zil
Shrug
- Feb 9, 2006
- 5,559
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Pretty much this (the first paragraph) bu he's worth more than 4.5
That's the top 5 players above/below Brassard last year in points as per nhl.com removing guys on ELC or first time arbitration type awards and guys that definitely weren't centers like Cammalleri. I also included what the overall groups average % cap space they took up at the time they signed and showed what that would be in todays cap (5.1M). The CHEAPEST one of those contracts (Vermette: 6.31% of cap) would come out to 4.35M cap hit if signed now. Only Vermette and Jokinen would come in below 4.5M if signed now and Jokinen is the worst comparable on this list since he signed very short term deals at an older age.
With the exception of the awful Zajac deal, every guy on that list making $5 million or more landed his contract coming off much higher levels of production. In the years immediately before their extensions began they posted these totals: Kesler (75), Ribeiro (83), and Plekanec (70). And even Zajac has broken the 60 point barrier twice in the past. Brassard has yet to post 50 points in a season. A $4.5 million for a scorer of Brassard's caliber is more than fair. Coincidentally, no one else on your list exceeds that cap hit.
Hire Sather
He Is Our Star
I would've much rather locked up Zuccarello long term and really don't love the idea of having Brassard long term but we really need to cut it with the *half the team unsigned every offseason* ****
If we can get him long term at maybe uhh 4.7ish we could always trade him instead of risking losing someone else for nothing
If we can get him long term at maybe uhh 4.7ish we could always trade him instead of risking losing someone else for nothing
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
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BearishRiggs
Registered User
- Mar 21, 2013
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Also remember all of those guys (with the exception of Ribeiro) are relied on heavily within those teams' systems. PP time, PK time. Usually logging 20+ mins a night on average, which I'm sure factors into how their team values them and how much more they want to get paid.
Brassard has PP time, but only averages around 16 mins a night. No PK. He really has no basis to go above 5 as even with the expanding market, the guys who bring what he brings are all in the same ballpark.
Edit: Honestly though, who the hell knows. In a world where Dave Bolland gets 5.5x5 anything can and will happen.
Orpik is not the holy grail platinum standard of great contracts.
It doesn't matter if Sharp is helping out w/a little depth C or is, as expected, more likely on W. He is a better fit to this team, which needs finishers not playmakers, than Thornton.
Viewed Sharp as cheaper version of Nash, basically, w/o the long term contract killing cap options.
I prefaced saying we would (only) get him if cheap cause Chi needs cap space, so sold at discount.
We need to move Nash.
We do not need to take Sharp as a replacement, but if cheap enough, it should be considered and not dismissed.
JT does not offer enough to offset all risks of age, [over 35] contract, exp. etc.
MUST AVOID (unless it's a bigger deal and a guy like Hertl, a building block, is coming back).
Thank you.
This is another reason to just say no.
Even if he's 'ok' enough now, there is increased risk of cumulative damage (compared to ordinary everyday risk of a concussion could happen to anybody on any shift at any time), which adds to basis that investment is too high, and more important, if he becomes another Drury, we are screwed.
Thanks for the constructive input.
If we are expecting we have to plan on countering someone like Getzlaf, we don't throw good resources after bad w/Thornton.
We translate Stepan into MORE than Stepan.
Then we add, it will hurt, but we get a guy like Draisatil.
That's the type of gamble we take.
High risk, higher reward.
silverfish
got perma'd
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
- 36,366
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With Derek Roy just signing a 1 year deal for almost league minimum, you must believe very strongly in Brassard's chemistry with Zuccarello to say that.
Nice unbreakable avatar reference.
Sometimes the best move isn't taking the higher risk higher reward player.
Look at the Mets' Ike Davis, Lucas Duda decision. They took the safer player with the lower ceiling. Duda's paying dividends for them now while Davis is underwhelming.
I don't think he'll cut it as the 2c. Said it weeks ago, still confident in my assessment.
He's going to underwhelm there.
1 or 2 year contract should benefit the Rangers most.
JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK
Twenty f*ckin years
- Oct 8, 2010
- 80,070
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First, before I forget, thank you for a constructive post.
Proceeding, let's set aside whether or not C is "the most important position", which, btw, IMO is influenced by perspective; i.e., C is more important now than generically whenever because atm there is a shortage of high end Cs, and the low supply with steady/increased demand drives up value/price. That said, The otherwise all around good team without G is handicapped, and likewise for without D, without Cs (esp. as to distribution/FOs), and without snipers/finishers (typically Ws). Rare is a team so complete it has no issues anywhere.
Now, while there is an obvious pronounced shortage of both elite players and better Cs generally, there is less visible a quality gap for players generically. If there were only still original 6 teams, the best guys would push off the others and every team would be great. Conversely, if there were 100 teams, it is logical to think that typically, quality would be dispersed further, with fewer teams having better players. (Similar to baseball after expansion, takes a bit for equilibrium to catch up.)
Ok, so now go back to a core point I made.
We only trade Stepan IF there is so much overpayment. By that I mean if we get enough (so much, actually, by definition), we are taking the plus we have at C and using that return to more than crazy improve the other areas.
That level of improvement, while yes, weakening the team at C, MORE than improves so much of the team elsewhere, the deal should be done on its merits. By definition ("MORE than improves so much of the team").
Restated, despite the big loss at C, total improvement commands acceptance of the deal.
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Let's put a face on this.
Stepan does not get you JVR.
Stepan with reasonable + does.
JVR does nothing for you at C.
But JVR does a HUGE amount for you ---
on total offense, finishing, making other Fs, esp. Ws that much more effective.
So even if you live with the risk that Brassard will again step up like he did when Stepan was injured --- and it is fair to point out it is a risk, not that Brass will produce but if he will produce THAT much --- that risk is more than offset by actual JVR production.
That is what people have to get. It's less my opinion than it is mostly arithmetic.
The other thing, as I've said, is try to get most synergy in lines.
Kreider is our best LW. Arguably MSL = our best RW.
That is speed. So deal Stepan for top top top dollar, then add other currency and spend a few bucks to get Marcus Johansson from Caps (since guy we really want, Duchene is a pipe dream).
That's assuming MarJo is dramatically faster than JT Miller, who is a nice combo size/speed.
If we sign Hayes and he is ready sooner than later, that is a big line with Kreider.
maybe put Hagelin with MSL, for super speed.
We have to start thinking outside the box and not say 'oh, let's just tinker with one or two guys'.
IMPROVEMENT IS IMPROVEMENT.
We are not horrible at moving the puck around most nights.
We need finishers, snipers who can be counted on to rip the twine.
Yes, he's a big body, he gets stuff in the crease, when Kreider on same line, allows more options for Kreider, I like.
Yes, he's an opportunist (regular season, anyway).
But he is not a total package, he is expensive, he has too much risk, and we are better putting overpayment of assets elsewhere.
Now is the time to try and get Draisatil from Edmonton with overpay, before he turns into an elite, Getzlaf lite.
surf
Wheres the Reggae?
These contracts are so out of whack anything more than 3M for him in the real world is over payment..No way is he a 5M a year player..
Setting aside whether or not we should be trying to copy closer to the Yankees than the Mets, you raise a good point --- in a vacuum.
You are saying less risk is safer.
Less risk is very unlikely to get us a 30-35+ slugger.
And .300 you can't rely on.
But is saying you can bank on most of the team at .280.
That's not bad.
However, the nature of hockey is certain premium/elite/uber-elite players can dominate by merely exerting their will.
We can handle average joe pitcher. But Bob Gibson comes in, those .280 guys don't have a chance.
That's when you need a DiMaggio/Mantle/Gehrig type to neutralize Gibson.
Trouble is, all such All Stars are very hard to develop/acquire.
So occasionally, you have to take the risk of a deal that is greater reward for greater risk.
SA16
Sixstring
No no no. There's thinking outside the box using logic and there's thinking outside the box on acid.
I'm pretty sure I know which one you're getting at.
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