Speculation: 2014 - 2015 New York Rangers :: Roster building / proposal thread Part II

[JESSEWENEEDTOCOOK]

Why? That sounds insane to turn down.

The type of playmaker Thornton is never ages like other types do. Oates played a SCF when he was 40 y/o.

I am sorry but Joe T seems to be one of those examples that always have people loose some judgement. He is "too good". If he had been half as good, people could picture him in a more of a 1 of the top 9 roles type of asset. But since he has been top 1-5 for several years and has some flaws, he should be disqualified?

Thornton is a lot better player than Brad Richards is. BR helped us. Joe T would help us. He is also a big center who are really strong on FOs and excellent on the PP.

Getting him and fitting him under the cap is probably impossible, sure. But — if — we could get him, he would of course help. Thinking anything else is nonsense. Pure nonsense.

Good post

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

IMO, it is pushing it to say Thornton is an elite 1C.

In the regular season he's a stud.

 

[bernmeister]

I don't want Thornton, but there is no way in this stratosphere that JT is not better then Sharp at this current moment. He's never been a fast skater that's not his game, he is one of the smartest players of this past generation.

He has some ability and thus value.
But as an overall player, Sharp IS a better fit.
Would likely cost less. Even if he were used more at W.

And Sharp is the finisher. JT more a playmaker.

 

[bernmeister]

Yeah it does have to be a #1 center.

you don't trade your defactor #1 center in Stepan and not get a better player for the same position in return.

Brassard is no #1 center. Miller is no #2 center, at thsi point he's brealy a #3 center.

Without a replacement coming back or lined up in another deal, Stepan cannot get moved.

A team will not give you a better player at the same position unless there are certain other variables in the equation.

Trading Stepan to get huge upgrade in value is possible.
Insisting that a better C be part of the return is extremely difficult/unlikely.

Need to recognize we need more than just a single elite C.
Even if it is another asset or player currency we have to convert and move later, if the overpayment is huge enough, it makes sense.

 

[Doctyl]

A team will not give you a better player at the same position unless there are certain other variables in the equation.

Trading Stepan to get huge upgrade in value is possible.
Insisting that a better C be part of the return is extremely difficult/unlikely.

So who's filling in the 1C?

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

So who's filling in the 1C?

Keanu Reeves.

 

[silverfish]

Brassard hits arbitration in three days. When do the teams and players need to have their offers in, 24 hours prior?

What are we going to see?

Rangers - $4.25m

Brassard - $5.25m

My guess.

Arbitrator settles a one-year deal at $4.75. Brassard walks as a UFA in 2015.

 

[One Winged Angel]

The one problem I have with Thornton is that he plays a style of game that doesn't fit the team's current direction.

He's not an amazing skater, although he can move, but his game is predicated from setting up the play from behind the net and slowing things down. He's never really been an off the rush kind of player, at least from what I've seen throughout his career.

If the Rangers don't have to give up a ton to get him, I can't see why Thornton wouldn't be an upgrade over Brassard. Especially if Brassard wants, or ends up actually getting that 5.5 million he wants. I'd rather pay the 1-1.5 million and get Big Joe if the package needed to get him is plausible and within realistic boundaries.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

The notion that Thornton doesn't fit here is insane.

The Rangers are a speed team, but that doesn't mean that when a rush ends, we throw the puck back to Lundqvist and try to start a new rush. We WANT to spend time in the other team's zone. Thornton is a fantastic possession player and he's probably the second best pure passer in the game. It's madness to think we wouldn't be a much better team with Thornton replacing Brassard. (Like Fletch has said many times now, the ONLY issue is whether the cost to go from Brassard to Thornton (basically, what we're adding to Brassard to get JT) is too much or not. We shouldn't be discussing the merits / ability of Joe Thornton.

Ola nailed it in his last post also.

I guess Gretzky wouldn't fit here either since his office was behind the net.

 

[KOVALEV022473]

The notion that Thornton doesn't fit here is insane.

The Rangers are a speed team, but that doesn't mean that when a rush ends, we throw the puck back to Lundqvist and try to start a new rush. We WANT to spend time in the other team's zone. Thornton is a fantastic possession player and he's probably the second best pure passer in the game. It's madness to think we wouldn't be a much better team with Thornton replacing Brassard. (Like Fletch has said many times now, the ONLY issue is whether the cost to go from Brassard to Thornton (basically, what we're adding to Brassard to get JT) is too much or not. We shouldn't be discussing the merits / ability of Joe Thornton.

Ola nailed it in his last post also.

I guess Gretzky wouldn't fit here either since his office was behind the net.

Perfect post. Throton makes us infinitely better! Especially, if its Brassard + prospect + a pick. I don't really understand the hate that Thorton gets(sans for his stupid comment in 2012). He is still one of the top 5 centers in the league, hands down.

 

[MrAlmost]

I live in San Jose and I watch the sharks a lot. Thornton is not at all what the rangers need. He will not be the help we want and he will decline while buckling under the pressure of New York. It is not a good idea to trade for him. No matter the price. Don't sacrifice chemistry for a fantasy NHL14 quick fix.

 

[pld459666]

IMO, it is pushing it to say Thornton is an elite 1C.

How many other centers had 60+ assists last year

He iS elite

 

[Championship*]

Don't want JT, but if we are flipping pieces, best might be Nash to Detroit
Nash + Rangers 2016 1st
for
Jurco, Helm, Adam Larkin + Det. 2015 1st [+ cap relief]

then, instead of JT, see if Sharp can be had reasonably from Hawks.
Sharp much better fit for this club; way better skater; finisher.

Sorry, I'm new here.

This is a joke account, right?

 

[pld459666]

A team will not give you a better player at the same position unless there are certain other variables in the equation.

Trading Stepan to get huge upgrade in value is possible.
Insisting that a better C be part of the return is extremely difficult/unlikely.

Need to recognize we need more than just a single elite C.
Even if it is another asset or player currency we have to convert and move later, if the overpayment is huge enough, it makes sense.

But what u r suggesting is to fill one hole by creating a gaping hole at the most important position.

 

[Championship*]

Lot of talk about a guy who technically isn't available.

If the guy didn't have a NTC he would have been gone by now, but he doesn't want to leave.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Lot of talk about a guy who technically isn't available.

If the guy didn't have a NTC he would have been gone by now, but he doesn't want to leave.

90% of your posts are the same way: with you spewing your own baseless claims as fact.

Perhaps he only wants to go....*gasp* where he WANTS TO GO.

And perhaps SJ is trying to find the best offer before they trade the guy who has been their best player for the last 10 years.

Perhaps they haven't even had any real offers yet; just inquiries.

"he would have been gone by now" It's July 25th, pal.

When you know NOTHING, don't say anything. It's a great rule to follow.

 

[Championship*]

90% of your posts are the same way: with you spewing your own baseless claims as fact.

Perhaps he only wants to go....*gasp* where he WANTS TO GO.

And perhaps SJ is trying to find the best offer before they trade the guy who has been their best player for the last 10 years.

Perhaps they haven't even had any real offers yet; just inquiries.

"he would have been gone by now" It's July 25th, pal.

When you know NOTHING, don't say anything. It's a great rule to follow.

And 100% of your posts are the same - Useless. It's been reported ad naseum that Thornton doesn't want to go.

 

[Mikos87]

Brass into Thornton is the only thing that makes the trade worth it especially if Brassard is looking for $5.5M... Considering Joe only costs a mere depth signing more, you do that deal every day.

Would definitely not send Hags over... Maybe John Moore if the management staff believes Allen is ready to be eased into 3rd pairing minutes.... I do too, in all honesty... Allen is far superior to Moore in my opinion, and he'll be $100k cheaper

Is it crazy to think that Wilson might be the next Gainey? I mean, the guy is signing John Scott and ripping apart a team that almost won the presidents trophy... He's clearly desperate, and I think at this point he'll take what he can get to make a "contender" out of his team... Sather's not giving up Duclair, Skjei, or Miller, I can bet you on that..

Unfortunately, this deal only works if SJS retains some salary... in doing so, they'll probably want a draft pick or middling prospect... i wonder which one goes

Wilson is under the gun, after how his team fizzled out this year, you can be a good of a GM as him and not know how to build a playoff team. Someone has to take the heat and he's said they are rebuilding.

As much as it would be ideal for them to retain salary, they aren't doing it. If the Rangers just carry 6 D and 12 forwards or bury Glass then it might fit if that 6 D is Hunwick. But it makes practices and running a team awfully challenging.

This is where that Glass deal really hurts.

Maybe SJ takes Glass as a part of the package and the Rangers throw in another prospect while taking some SPCs off of SJ's hands. The Rangers only have 6.3M open with Brassard and Jmoore unsignged but that's with 1.2 counting with Kostka and Hunwick, and 1.4 on Glass.

 

[Mikos87]

The one problem I have with Thornton is that he plays a style of game that doesn't fit the team's current direction.

He's not an amazing skater, although he can move, but his game is predicated from setting up the play from behind the net and slowing things down. He's never really been an off the rush kind of player, at least from what I've seen throughout his career.

If the Rangers don't have to give up a ton to get him, I can't see why Thornton wouldn't be an upgrade over Brassard. Especially if Brassard wants, or ends up actually getting that 5.5 million he wants. I'd rather pay the 1-1.5 million and get Big Joe if the package needed to get him is plausible and within realistic boundaries.

Henrik Sedin wasn't an elite skater either and AV used zone starts to his advantage, same will apply for Thornton. He doesn't have to play a checking role like he did.

The guy isn't fast, but he's big, covers a lot of ice, and real speed is puck movement, the guy can move the puck as best as any playmaker in the league. Hell you can make an argument that he's the best playmaker in the league given his assist totals.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

I don't think this is the case, but if Sather feels that Zuccarello will walk in a year, then he could actually use him as a tradeable asset and pull off this blockbuster:

Part 1: Zuccarello, Klein, and McIlrath for Joe Thornton

Part 2: Brassard, Lindberg, Kristo for Ryan O'Reilly

O'Reilly Thornton Nash
Kreider Stepan St. Louis
Hagelin Miller Stempniak
Glass Moore Lombardi

McDonagh Girardi
Staal Boyle
Moore Allen

Lundqvist
Talbot



I know it looks like "HELL NO" at first because Zuccarello was our leading scorer and he's a fan favorite and I love the guy. He may be my favorite Ranger outside of Henke and McDonagh, but I love the Rangers team more than any individual player, and always will put the good of the team before keeping my favorite players.

At second glance, we're replacing Brassard with Thornton, and replacing Zuccarello with O'Reilly, and because Klein is going in one of the deals, the salary is almost a complete wash.

Brassard + Klein + Zuccarello = 11.5 (assuming Brassard at 5.0)

O'Reilly + Thornton = 12.75

That's a 1.25 mil difference; easily doable to get under the cap.



Here's it fitting on capgeek. ~200k of space without any spares, which means with a few minor tweaks (Kostka for Allen, or Lindberg for Miller, or Glass traded for a 7th), a full 22 man roster is totally plausible (the trades however, are quite far from "plausible" hehe)

CapGeek Armchair GM Roster
FORWARDS
Chris Kreider ($2.475m) / Derek Stepan ($3.075m) / Martin St. Louis ($5.625m)
Ryan O'Reilly ($6.000m) / Joe Thornton ($6.750m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / J.T. Miller ($0.894m) / Lee Stempniak ($0.900m)
Tanner Glass ($1.450m) / Dominic Moore ($1.500m) / Chris Mueller ($0.600m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.500m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Dan Boyle ($4.500m)
John Moore ($0.851m) / Conor Allen ($0.925m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.500m)
Cameron Talbot ($0.563m)
BUYOUTS
Wade Redden ($0.000m)
Brad Richards ($0.000m)
BONUS OVERAGE
$0
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $68,832,167; BONUSES: $1,200,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $167,833


note: I listed the center depth as Thornton-Stepan-Miller-Moore, with Ryan O'Reilly playing LW with Thornton and Nash, but we would also be able to ice Thornton-Stepan-O'Reilly-Moore down the middle, which would rival even the deepest teams like The Kings, Penguins, and Sharks.


I admit, I'm getting crazy with this one. I'm only posting it for a few laughs and to show how there are many possibilities to improve this roster before October. Some of us need to stop acting like everything is set in stone. We'll be fine. Sather's definitely got at least ONE magic move up his sleeve.

 

[Tawnos]

Very, VERY few transactions take place in August.

The odds are pretty strongly in favor of Sather being done after Brassard and Moore rather than him having some magic move.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

And 100% of your posts are the same - Useless. It's been reported ad naseum that Thornton doesn't want to go.

Do you remember how many times it was reported that Marty St. Louis didn't want to go?

I guess you don't.

Any player who is still under contract with their team says they want to stay. Even when it's being reported that a player has ASKED for a trade, the player themselves usually says he wants to stay or that he just wants what is best for the team.

It was also "reported" that Thornton ONLY wants to go to NY to play with good friends Dan Boyle and Rick Nash.

Don't be naive.

 

[Zuccarello Awesome*]

Very, VERY few transactions take place in August.

That doesn't mean much. GM's aren't going to not make a deal because "very few transactions take place in August." ;P

There are also 6 more days of July.

AND, I think it makes a lot of sense that Sather would be waiting to see the result of the final arbitration case (or if Brassard is re-signed before that obviously) before he does anything major. John Moore still needs a contract (likely 900k or less) as well. I'm sure other teams are in the same boat with arbitration hearings holding up potential trades / plans.

 

[Championship*]

Do you remember how many times it was reported that Marty St. Louis didn't want to go?

I guess you don't.

Any player who is still under contract with their team says they want to stay. Even when it's being reported that a player has ASKED for a trade, the player themselves usually says he wants to stay or that he just wants what is best for the team.

It was also "reported" that Thornton ONLY wants to go to NY to play with good friends Dan Boyle and Rick Nash.

Don't be naive.

1) Go read Elliot Friedman
2) Because MSL wanted to get traded to the Rangers (because of his house in CT) has nothing to do with this. Apples and Oranges situation.
3) That report from MacClean was before free agency, Dan Boyle wasn't on the team at that point, so tough to see that being reported


Do us all a favor, stick to making crazy trade proposals for us to laugh at.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I'm not against seeing if Thornton will waive his NTC, he may. We would have to do a salary dump that would either include Staal or Hagelin and Klein. So possible trades look like this I imagine

1. Brass/Staal/pick or prospect for Thornton/Braun

2. Brass/Hagelin/Klein/pick and prospect for Thornton/Nieto/Irwin