2014-2015 Champions Hockey League

[eme]

The comparisons between the CHL and KHL are a bit unfair, since the former is a cup formed competition played alongside national leagues and the latter is one.

As for the announced prizepool, its completely fine. Sure its not comparable to money teams from NHL or KHL or even in some of the smaller leagues get, but its a start. Without a single huge financial backer you have to take a slower route, to gradually build the tournament. Last time CHL had one, gazprom just pulled away when they were supposed to pay out the money, which also collapsed the whole tournament.

 

[eme]

Imagine KHL as I described upper and ask yourself. What is better for euro hockey? 1) KHL for best and ET/CHL/whatever for rest clubs or 2) KHL as is today and ET/CHL without Russians=money?

Many guys dont understand KHL´s expansion, they fear but there is no reason for it. You will see what Jokerit will cause in Finland, theere will be hockey boom....

I wrote it many times, biggest problem of euro hockey is a fact that BIG BUSSINESS is not involved in euro club competitions... only KHL is able to bring big bussiness into euro hockey. Someone does not like it because of moral, but the same people love NHL for the same reason - for big bussiness in us/can hockey.

If we are talking about a european wide league, then I'd prefer the latter option. Cross-nation hockey should always be open, or atleast partially open, for the best teams to play in. It has always been the European sports culture to allow new teams to enter the bigger arenas, while the less succesful teams might need to take a year or two in the lower tier (the finnish league deciders are idiots for possibly closing the opportunity). Open competition is what drives any sports in europe forward. KHL is likely not to have a relegation system, even if it would have more teams involved in Finland/Central Europe etc.

The economic structure in the KHL is unhealthy, sure the organisation itself makes a profit, but how long can the smaller teams really support huge budgets with arenas that barely hold 8000 spectators? In comparison, only few teams in FEL lose money yearly (Jokerit is one of the big spenders, havent made a profit for a long time).

And I severely doubt there will be a hockey boom in Finland, maybe a small one in Helsinki area. Major concensus seems to be rather indifferent, sad to see jokerit go but not really interested to follow the teams success in the KHL. I for one live quite close to the arena, and might go to see a game or two if I can get a free ticket or atleast a cheap one(as in cheaper than a FEL ticket for HIFK game). Otherwise i couldnt care less, especially if there is a FEL or CHL game going on the same time.

 

[QnebO]

The economic structure in the KHL is unhealthy, sure the organisation itself makes a profit, but how long can the smaller teams really support huge budgets with arenas that barely hold 8000 spectators?

This is what concerns me and probably every one most in KHL. Where does that money come from? The ticket prices are so cheap and arenas not even very big, how can they collect enough money for budgets? It's pretty clear that some one is doing charity.. But there is a risk that that charity guy decides not the give money any more, like Gazprom / CHL. What happens then? I sure hope this scenario is some how taken care of, but I'm not really clear on how KHL finance is done..

Sportswise I like it but then there are things unclear like this. I think if all goes wrong, teams can just go back to their national series. CHL doesn't sound too big or beautiful at the start, but it's full realism. The teams earn their living from the fans. Might get money from sponsors, but that's also just because of the fans and advertising for them ultimately.

Ps. I like SKA english site. But I think it's kind of a problem for fans if they can't even get over the border without some kind of a Visa. From Finland, you can go with a train I think, but with a plane, is it even possible? How would for example Swedes be able to even go to Russia? First to Finland, then a train to moscow?

Just trying to see the leagues from objective viewpoint. Do not consider me trying to go against KHL or pro KHL. I wanna be in the middle field staying as neutral and objective as I can.

 

[vorky]

If we are talking about a european wide league, then I'd prefer the latter option. Cross-nation hockey should always be open, or atleast partially open, for the best teams to play in. It has always been the European sports culture to allow new teams to enter the bigger arenas, while the less succesful teams might need to take a year or two in the lower tier (the finnish league deciders are idiots for possibly closing the opportunity). Open competition is what drives any sports in europe forward. KHL is likely not to have a relegation system, even if it would have more teams involved in Finland/Central Europe etc.

The economic structure in the KHL is unhealthy, sure the organisation itself makes a profit, but how long can the smaller teams really support huge budgets with arenas that barely hold 8000 spectators? In comparison, only few teams in FEL lose money yearly (Jokerit is one of the big spenders, havent made a profit for a long time).

And I severely doubt there will be a hockey boom in Finland, maybe a small one in Helsinki area. Major concensus seems to be rather indifferent, sad to see jokerit go but not really interested to follow the teams success in the KHL. I for one live quite close to the arena, and might go to see a game or two if I can get a free ticket or atleast a cheap one(as in cheaper than a FEL ticket for HIFK game). Otherwise i couldnt care less, especially if there is a FEL or CHL game going on the same time.

KHL has been copying NHL´s economic structure, so if KHL is unhealthy, then NHL is as well.

KHL has been in "invest mode" now, but it wont take long.

Poor CSKA, they had financial problems and got Rosneft. Do you consider it as bad thing? Yes, Yugra etc will have problem to stay in league, but it is clear that these clubs belongs to VHL. Only 12-16 russian clubs will stay in KHL + all euro (and Jokerit), including new one, maybe Lev will be replaced by Sparta.

 

[vorky]

This is what concerns me and probably every one most in KHL. Where does that money come from? The ticket prices are so cheap and arenas not even very big, how can they collect enough money for budgets? It's pretty clear that some one is doing charity.. But there is a risk that that charity guy decides not the give money any more, like Gazprom / CHL. What happens then? I sure hope this scenario is some how taken care of, but I'm not really clear on how KHL finance is done..

Sportswise I like it but then there are things unclear like this. I think if all goes wrong, teams can just go back to their national series. CHL doesn't sound too big or beautiful at the start, but it's full realism. The teams earn their living from the fans. Might get money from sponsors, but that's also just because of the fans and advertising for them ultimately.

Ps. I like SKA english site. But I think it's kind of a problem for fans if they can't even get over the border without some kind of a Visa. From Finland, you can go with a train I think, but with a plane, is it even possible? How would for example Swedes be able to even go to Russia? First to Finland, then a train to moscow?

Just trying to see the leagues from objective viewpoint. Do not consider me trying to go against KHL or pro KHL. I wanna be in the middle field staying as neutral and objective as I can.

NOTHING, new sponsor will come.

Guys, I dont understand your fear... dont get it.

 

[eme]

The "fear", as you call it, is that it's an unhealthy business model. Hockey teams are companies, and are supposed to generate income, not just collect charity. Sponsorship deals are ofcourse the major revenue path for most of the professional sports teams in any sport, but in KHL the funds are mostly given as a gift, not because of turnover. There is the difference, when the godfather gets bored, the club will go under.

 

[Jussi]

This is what concerns me and probably every one most in KHL. Where does that money come from? The ticket prices are so cheap and arenas not even very big, how can they collect enough money for budgets? It's pretty clear that some one is doing charity.. But there is a risk that that charity guy decides not the give money any more, like Gazprom / CHL. What happens then? I sure hope this scenario is some how taken care of, but I'm not really clear on how KHL finance is done..

Sportswise I like it but then there are things unclear like this. I think if all goes wrong, teams can just go back to their national series. CHL doesn't sound too big or beautiful at the start, but it's full realism. The teams earn their living from the fans. Might get money from sponsors, but that's also just because of the fans and advertising for them ultimately.

Ps. I like SKA english site. But I think it's kind of a problem for fans if they can't even get over the border without some kind of a Visa. From Finland, you can go with a train I think, but with a plane, is it even possible? How would for example Swedes be able to even go to Russia? First to Finland, then a train to moscow?

Just trying to see the leagues from objective viewpoint. Do not consider me trying to go against KHL or pro KHL. I wanna be in the middle field staying as neutral and objective as I can.

Jokerit fan club are doing research on what the interest for road trips next season would be. The initial plan would be to do 3-4 trips (which pales in comparison what they are doing now) into nearest locations. The fact that the trips would take much longer and be more expensive (though not that much), is going to eliminate many of the younger fans (who these days make most of the noise in Eteläpäty) who have school and those with work from making those trips. A trip to St. Petersburg e.g. would involve staying at a "fairly modest at best hotel" for one night.

 

[QnebO]

I'm just too cynical to believe that those KHL team's charity people do it just for charity. There must be some way to earn money / power behind it. In case of Harkimo, there is the Arena case, and Harkimo getting access and connections to Russian markets, where obviously is alot of money and hard to get in, as Russia is still pretty closed country business wise. Valio for example is doing very big business there with their products.. not all the competitors get to the shelf's of Russian shops. But what is the motivation behind current, say Russian KHL team owners? Or is the case so, that it really is charity.

 

[Jussi]

KHL has been copying NHL´s economic structure, so if KHL is unhealthy, then NHL is as well.

Except the only thing KHL really copied from the NHL is a salary cap, which isn't even tied to the revenues by any means. Not forgetting the lack of revenue sharing of course. It's blatant to anyone with some level of math skills that the only way to make profits for the clubs would be to lower the salary cap to around 20 million dollars for a few years and re-evaluate the situation then. If they copied the full CBA from NHL to KHL the cap would drop well below the 20 million mark because there's no tv money on the level of the NHL to raise it. It is also not realistic to expect that type of tv money from Europe because hockey simply isn't that big a ratings draw.

 

[Den]

I'm just too cynical to believe that those KHL team's charity people do it just for charity.

It's not charity. It's a form of a social tax: "you want to do business with the low tax that we have in Russia, then help out local projects, sports included".

 

[Den]

Jokerit fan club are doing research on what the interest for road trips next season would be. The initial plan would be to do 3-4 trips (which pales in comparison what they are doing now) into nearest locations. The fact that the trips would take much longer and be more expensive (though not that much), is going to eliminate many of the younger fans (who these days make most of the noise in Eteläpäty) who have school and those with work from making those trips. A trip to St. Petersburg e.g. would involve staying at a "fairly modest at best hotel" for one night.

What will eliminate most fans, is the visas: in my experience Europeans simply don't bother applying and prefer not to go.

So, it's Riga, Prague and Bratislva mostly for you, then.

 

[ForumNamePending]

The CHL is going to have a lot to prove and the jury is still very much out on it, but I don't think you need to have huge prize money at stake to make it a success. It looks like the prize money up for grabs in basketball's Euroleague is pretty small, but the people who run that competition have managed to build it into something that matters to clubs, players and fans.

KHL has been copying NHL´s economic structure, so if KHL is unhealthy, then NHL is as well.

If by copying the NHL's economic struture you specifically mean the Phoenix Coyotes then yes, I agree, The KHL is following the NHL's economic struture.

KHL has been in "invest mode" now, but it wont take long.

Poor CSKA, they had financial problems and got Rosneft. Do you consider it as bad thing?

Yes, Yugra etc will have problem to stay in league, but it is clear that these clubs belongs to VHL.

A company spending millions on CSKA is a good thing for the KHL and overall a good thing for hockey but with some of the numbers you have been throwing around, like 40 million EUR salary floor within 5 years, plenty of clubs, unless they can find their own Rosneft, are going to have a problems staying in the league.

Only 12-16 russian clubs will stay in KHL + all euro (and Jokerit), including new one, maybe Lev will be replaced by Sparta.

Once again I ask where is the money coming from? How is Jokerits budget going to go from 10 million (I'm sure Jussi will correct me If I am wrong on that number ) to 3, 4, 5 times that amount? Am I correct in assuming the club will not be self sufficient and the plan is to have someone backroll it for the foreseable future? If this is the case you might see why moving to the KHL may not be the best move for most clubs across Europe. If this isn't the case where is the revenue coming from?

 

[QnebO]

What will eliminate most fans, is the visas: in my experience Europeans simply don't bother applying and prefer not to go.

And if owners think this way, KHL will fail to be that European league.

 

[Den]

And if owners think this way, KHL will fail to be that European league.

You mean that the management will start doing visas for the fans en mass? Might work, I don't know. In fact, as I know, it is elementary to get a Russian visa for a Finn. They just need to make one centrelazied application for all season ticket holders, for example.


Regardless, you don't see many Riga or Slovan fans in, say, Moscow games. Well, those from Riga you do see actually...

 

[FlutteringSaucer]

I'm just too cynical to believe that those KHL team's charity people do it just for charity. There must be some way to earn money / power behind it. In case of Harkimo, there is the Arena case, and Harkimo getting access and connections to Russian markets, where obviously is alot of money and hard to get in, as Russia is still pretty closed country business wise. Valio for example is doing very big business there with their products.. not all the competitors get to the shelf's of Russian shops. But what is the motivation behind current, say Russian KHL team owners? Or is the case so, that it really is charity.

It's not really charity but the reasons are political. The owners help the extremely politically influenced KHL to grow faster and run bigger than it would on a purely income based business model. And when you give some you get some. Just few days ago there were news that the new Jokerit owner Rotenberg has landed at least 21 construction contracts without basically any tendering for the Sochi Olympics. One of the contracts was for a €6.5 billion highway. If supporting Jokerit for let's say 10 million euros a year smooths his way to land these kinds of deals, I'd say it's quite a good deal for him (although its extremely wrong that the business is still run that way).

 

[QnebO]

You mean that the management will start doing visas fopr the fans en mass? Might work, I don't know


Regardless, you don't see many Riga or Slovan fans in, say, Moscow games. Well, those from Riga you do see actually...

It needs Visa free travel. No one's going to buy a visa for 200-300€ for one or few hockey game.

 

[Jussi]

I'm just too cynical to believe that those KHL team's charity people do it just for charity. There must be some way to earn money / power behind it. In case of Harkimo, there is the Arena case, and Harkimo getting access and connections to Russian markets, where obviously is alot of money and hard to get in, as Russia is still pretty closed country business wise. Valio for example is doing very big business there with their products.. not all the competitors get to the shelf's of Russian shops. But what is the motivation behind current, say Russian KHL team owners? Or is the case so, that it really is charity.

If you want to get in the Russian markets, you basically have to know the right people to pay to and the right amount.

 

[Jussi]

What will eliminate most fans, is the visas: in my experience Europeans simply don't bother applying and prefer not to go.

So, it's Riga, Prague and Bratislva mostly for you, then.

Yup, that was the big problem mentioned by the person (at the jatkoaika.com forums)who
created the survey.

 

[Den]

It needs Visa free travel. No one's going to buy a visa for 200-300€ for one or few hockey game.

It is not that much

 

[Jussi]

Once again I ask where is the money coming from? How is Jokerits budget going to go from 10 million (I'm sure Jussi will correct me If I am wrong on that number ) to 3, 4, 5 times that amount? Am I correct in assuming the club will not be self sufficient and the plan is to have someone backroll it for the foreseable future? If this is the case you might see why moving to the KHL may not be the best move for most clubs across Europe. If this isn't the case where is the revenue coming from?

That's the number they're aiming for (8-12 million euros) but whether they can reach it is another thing. Supposedly Rotenberg is already trying to gather Russian sponsors as the amount coming from Finnish ones isn't going to cover it anywhere close what is needed.

 

[EbencoyE]

Can't wait for this! The more I hear the most excited I get. (still not a fan of the licences of course but they are a necessary evil at this point)

love that they're planning to include the continental cup winner as well which will definitely help make that tournament a lot more meaningful.

 

[eme]

That's the number they're aiming for (8-12 million euros) but whether they can reach it is another thing. Supposedly Rotenberg is already trying to gather Russian sponsors as the amount coming from Finnish ones isn't going to cover it anywhere close what is needed.

I assume you are talking about player budget alone, yes? When you are referring to specific numbers that is. since the overall budget of Jokerit is around 6-8 million this season alone.

I remember reading somewhere that Jokerit is going to use charter flights on their away journeys, which would put the total budget way more expensive that it has been before. Do you reckon that Jokerit will need to use rotenberg's money or will they be able to gather the whole pot from sponsors? I'm genuinely curious. I doubt that they can, but then again, I have no insight whatsoever.

 

[Jussi]

I assume you are talking about player budget alone, yes? When you are referring to specific numbers that is. since the overall budget of Jokerit is around 6-8 million this season alone.

I remember reading somewhere that Jokerit is going to use charter flights on their away journeys, which would put the total budget way more expensive that it has been before. Do you reckon that Jokerit will need to use rotenberg's money or will they be able to gather the whole pot from sponsors? I'm genuinely curious. I doubt that they can, but then again, I have no insight whatsoever.

Yes, the player budget. Overall budget is 8 million this season. Overall budget has to go well over 20 million to cover for the travel.

The posters who have inside info/sources at Jatkoaika have been saying Rotenberg/Russians might have to cover more of the budget than they hoped/expected. The state of Finnish economy, even among the ones having business in Russia is in such a shape than sports sponsorship comes after keeping jobs.

 

[Jussi]

It is not that much

It's a lot of money to students and average workers. Jokerit fan club/base doesn't consist of middle class people so much.

 

[Den]

It's a lot of money to students and average workers. Jokerit fan club/base doesn't consist of middle class people so much.

35$ for an year multi-entrance (per Russian embassy in Finnland)? Give me a break...

There all these discussions going on to introduce visa free travel between EU and Russia. But Russia is not gonna drop visas unileterally. And at this point it looks like EU would rather allow visa free travel for Turkey, Moldova and Albania, rather than Russia.