OT: 2013 Redskins Thread - Part II

[Capathetic]

Which same players are worse?

Wilson most noticeably. I get that fletcher would slow down eventually but Kerrigan and Rak are both looking average except a play or two per game. Bowen was dominant and he kind of fell off the map. Hall for all the hate he gets is making plays.

Last season they were better than this. Two years ago fletch laid the boom a few times per game. Sorry qb's would throw that screen pass and that rb/wr got destroyed. Now it's an automatic 8 yards minimum. Perry Riley was a fierce run stopper last year.

Other than the idiotic personal fouls there isn't any physicality back there and teams know it. They may not have won every game but they were laying the hurt on guys. AP went down against Gomes and the skins. I remember beating the packers the year they won the Super Bowl and half their team landed on IR after that game.

So yes those players that have been here for a few years now are looking old and slow.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

And how exactly are Steve Spurrier and Chip Kelly like David Shaw (who was an NFL assistant for 7 years)?

Shaw was a position coach for 7 years in the NFL. He has no experience as a coordinator or HC at the NFL.

He is very comparable to Kelly, but Shaw runs a pro-style offense that relies heavily on ball control and a very good defense. I don't see that being an improvement over Shanahan.

 

[Capsman]

Wilson most noticeably. I get that fletcher would slow down eventually but Kerrigan and Rak are both looking average except a play or two per game. Bowen was dominant and he kind of fell off the map. Hall for all the hate he gets is making plays.

Last season they were better than this. Two years ago fletch laid the boom a few times per game. Sorry qb's would throw that screen pass and that rb/wr got destroyed. Now it's an automatic 8 yards minimum. Perry Riley was a fierce run stopper last year.

Other than the idiotic personal fouls there isn't any physicality back there and teams know it. They may not have won every game but they were laying the hurt on guys. AP went down against Gomes and the skins. I remember beating the packers the year they won the Super Bowl and half their team landed on IR after that game.

So yes those players that have been here for a few years now are looking old and slow.

Orakpo, perhaps, has gotten worse. Kerrigan, in my mind, is as good as he has ever been. Still plays the run well, still gets pressure most plays from the left. Below is a very typical Redskins pass rush. This is the play where Ponder scrambles to the 1 yard line. Cofield being out was a loss, but Bowen has always stunk as a pass rusher. Don't let me even get started wit Kedrik Golston, who would probably not make half the NFL rosters.

 

[RandyHolt]

Have you really seen him successful on roll outs this year?

Its a tiny sample size but of course.

Did you miss his best throw this year, the throw to Garcon late vs the Bears for a first down?

We sprint him out last night, but then the 1 WR route was a tough throw across his body. A bad play design.

We never try a run pass option, when we roll him out, its always one or the other.

I know you have seen him unable to step up time and time again in the pocket, taking gut shot after gut shot. Did you see Kory blown up on the final play last night... its been like that all year.

Talk about how not to develop a young QB. The kid was born to run and had no trouble throwing on the move in college.

 

[Capsman]

Its a tiny sample size but of course.

Did you miss his best throw this year, the throw to Garcon late vs the Bears for a first down?

We sprint him out last night, but then the 1 WR route was a tough throw across his body. A bad play design.

We never try a run pass option, when we roll him out, its always one or the other.

I know you have seen him unable to step up time and time again in the pocket, taking gut shot after gut shot. Did you see Kory blown up on the final play last night... its been like that all year.

Talk about how not to develop a young QB. The kid was born to run and had no trouble throwing on the move in college.

I don't know, I've seen him struggle a lot on roll outs as well. And I thought he was pretty good in the pocket last night. Really on only one of those sacks did he hold the ball too long. That first half the Vikings were getting pressure on him and he was phenomenal in the pocket. There were really only two possessions where they got to him, so it's not like there was this large pattern of failure that Kyle didn't respond to.

My beef with the play calling is that the fade would have been my second down call to Reed or Garçon, not 4th down to Moss. That was awful.

But let's call the loss what it is. A defensive failure. Our secondary isn't much but in my opinion they are better than our defensive line. Look at that photo I posted and see where the interior rushers are compared to the blue line. That's almost every pass play, every game. One of the reasons we cannot hold a lead is that teams decide to go almost exclusively to the pass when they are behind. That's playing into the hands of most teams, but against us it is something teams should do from the opening kickoff.

 

[RandyHolt]

We have problems everywhere. The onus is on our offense to compensate for our defense (no true 3-4 nose, by design) and horrid just horrid truly "special" teams.

So I fixate on the offense. Dad and son at the helm. This is their baby.

Sure Robert is not well polished in rolling out. He will force balls, but at least he cant get called for grounding, and has safe throwaway options. I think its worth a shot since our interior play is so shoddy.

I question why he must learn right now to be changed into the mold of the "traditional" NFL QB.

He does well in the pocket but a lot like last year, is dependent on play action. And the interior holding up. When Kyle starts passing, and everyone knows he will, it just cant hold up.

I have this little theory, that when RG3 is moving around, he is doing what comes naturally to him. In the pocket, he is over thinking which A gap is going to blow first. I also have a theory, outside of Garcon our WRs suck and need time rollouts buy, to get open.

 

[BobRouse]

I didn't think the play calling was that bad. Its easy to second guess calls I guess.

Hochuli and crew were that bad tho. 1 penalty on Minnesota all night after all the holding and low hits on RGIII? Put the cherry on top by missing the blatent holding on Reed near the end of the game.

But they did call "holding" on Paulsen taking away a first down. Gotta love Baker's "helmet to helmet" contact call too.

One thing that is bad about coaching is the special teams. Who would have thought it could get this much worse post-Danny Smith? Burns has absolutely no idea what he is doing. Hopefully its a learning curve and he will figure it out.

But there were alot of bright spots in the game. Garcon, RGIII, Reed, Morris, Helu and a few others all came to play.

Its not looking good this year and I am not getting my hopes up to win out like last year.

Next year however we will be much better. No more cap penalty means we can really address multiple needs.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I didn't think the play calling was that bad. Its easy to second guess calls I guess.

Hochuli and crew were that bad tho. 1 penalty on Minnesota all night after all the holding and low hits on RGIII? Put the cherry on top by missing the blatent holding on Reed near the end of the game.

But they did call "holding" on Paulsen taking away a first down. Gotta love Baker's "helmet to helmet" contact call too.

One thing that is bad about coaching is the special teams. Who would have thought it could get this much worse post-Danny Smith? Burns has absolutely no idea what he is doing. Hopefully its a learning curve and he will figure it out.

But there were alot of bright spots in the game. Garcon, RGIII, Reed, Morris, Helu and a few others all came to play.

Its not looking good this year and I am not getting my hopes up to win out like last year.

Next year however we will be much better. No more cap penalty means we can really address multiple needs.

As much as we may disagree on the Caps, I agree with all of this for the skins. They are not a good team, so when pitted against a team on the road, with the refs being shady, they won't win. They are simply not good enough to do so.

The team wasn't really in place to win last year or this year, thanks to the Cap issues. The have what...a 15% lower Cap than everyone else? That's a tough climb, and we are seeing it on special teams more than anywhere (and on defense and the o line). Last years magical run was born on good health, good luck, and a soft schedule. But they still won 7 straight. That's impressive in the NFL, no matter what anyone says.

They need to really determine if the 3-4 is right for them. They need to see if Haslett is the guy, and they really should focus on their special teams. New coach, new players, new everything.

Firing Shanahan isn't really the answer, IMO. Maybe getting rid of Kyle is...but I'm not set on that. But managing family is not the same as managing someone else, so it HAS to colour Mike's thinking. He won't treat Kyle the same as say Norv Turner or Brian Shottenheimer or Marty Morningweg.

Teams can turn on a dime in today's NFL. We see it every year. So...don't blow it up, won't make sense yet. We need to fix some things, be smart w FA and bolster both lines, and the secondary in massive ways. Draft BPA again, and see where we are.

If next year isn't significantly better (read: over .500 easily), then maybe they make a change for RG3's sake (like the Caps should for Ovy's)

 

[BobRouse]

As much as we may disagree on the Caps, I agree with all of this for the skins. They are not a good team, so when pitted against a team on the road, with the refs being shady, they won't win. They are simply not good enough to do so.

The team wasn't really in place to win last year or this year, thanks to the Cap issues. The have what...a 15% lower Cap than everyone else? That's a tough climb, and we are seeing it on special teams more than anywhere (and on defense and the o line). Last years magical run was born on good health, good luck, and a soft schedule. But they still won 7 straight. That's impressive in the NFL, no matter what anyone says.

They need to really determine if the 3-4 is right for them. They need to see if Haslett is the guy, and they really should focus on their special teams. New coach, new players, new everything.

Firing Shanahan isn't really the answer, IMO. Maybe getting rid of Kyle is...but I'm not set on that. But managing family is not the same as managing someone else, so it HAS to colour Mike's thinking. He won't treat Kyle the same as say Norv Turner or Brian Shottenheimer or Marty Morningweg.

Teams can turn on a dime in today's NFL. We see it every year. So...don't blow it up, won't make sense yet. We need to fix some things, be smart w FA and bolster both lines, and the secondary in massive ways. Draft BPA again, and see where we are.

If next year isn't significantly better (read: over .500 easily), then maybe they make a change for RG3's sake (like the Caps should for Ovy's)

Yeah right on.

I actually like Kyle. I don't think Hazlitt is terrible either.

I do think the real root of this is Vinny Cerrato and the horrendous long term damage he did. The Cap penalty is a direct result of that awful Haynesworth contract (to go along with all his other awful contracts he handed out). Some of the depth issues are mainly due to years of awful drafting (Kelly, Thomas, Davis sticks out)

The good new is that the rest of our schedule is soft and RGIII is looking healthier every week.

Its sad to see the decline of Fletcher and Moss. They were both good last year and bad this year and that has really hurt us too.

We got some very very good pieces going forward and as you said really do need to bolster the lines on both sides.

Also you are right about special teams as they have felt the cap penalty more than either O or D. Mix that in with an inexperienced ST coach and I guess the results shouldn't be suprising.

We aren't a good team that can overcome horrendous officiating like last night. It showed in the final result.

The main reason we lost tho? Our D line got zero push up the middle and our O line got demolished on the interior. Montgomery and co. have been pretty bad this year.

 

[Capsman]

We have problems everywhere. The onus is on our offense to compensate for our defense (no true 3-4 nose, by design) and horrid just horrid truly "special" teams.

So I fixate on the offense. Dad and son at the helm. This is their baby.

Sure Robert is not well polished in rolling out. He will force balls, but at least he cant get called for grounding, and has safe throwaway options. I think its worth a shot since our interior play is so shoddy.

I question why he must learn right now to be changed into the mold of the "traditional" NFL QB.

He does well in the pocket but a lot like last year, is dependent on play action. And the interior holding up. When Kyle starts passing, and everyone knows he will, it just cant hold up.

I have this little theory, that when RG3 is moving around, he is doing what comes naturally to him. In the pocket, he is over thinking which A gap is going to blow first. I also have a theory, outside of Garcon our WRs suck and need time rollouts buy, to get open.

Garcon and Reed are enough to succeed. Hankerson hasn't been half bad.

 

[BobRouse]

Garcon and Reed are enough to succeed. Hankerson hasn't been half bad.

I think RH is referring to the huge drop off from Moss and Morgan and the continued insignificance of Robinson.

Hankerson has steadily improved but it would help to have him as the #3 and get a compliment to Garcon.

Meh...we have other holes on the team to address first and formost I guess.

 

[NobodyBeatsTheWiz]

Shaw was a position coach for 7 years in the NFL. He has no experience as a coordinator or HC at the NFL.

He is very comparable to Kelly, but Shaw runs a pro-style offense that relies heavily on ball control and a very good defense. I don't see that being an improvement over Shanahan.

John Harbaugh had no experience as a coordinator or head coach in the NFL.

And I'm not seeing how Shaw is remotely comparable to Kelly. Their experience is completely different. Shaw would be most comparable to Jim Harbaugh.

Shanahan is so incredibly overrated. Has he won a playoff game without John Elway yet?

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Shanahan is so incredibly overrated. Has he won a playoff game without John Elway yet?

Here we go again. How about Elway never won a SB until Shanahan got him a running game in the 6th round in Terrell Davis?

After the way the Skins have played this year I wouldn't be against a HC change at the end of the year, but Shanahan is a good NFL HC. That's is fact.

Just heard about this:

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 2h
#Steelers sources expect Big Ben to ask them to explore trade options after 2013. They fielded offers for him last offseason. Could again

Interested to read what people on here would think of the Skins trading Griffin straight up for Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger has taken a beating over the last handful of years, but at 31 I wouldn't be opposed to the Skins doing such a thing. Big Ben is a winner.

 

[Cush]

Packers are down to their 3rd string QB

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Here we go again. How about Elway never won a SB until Shanahan got him a running game in the 6th round in Terrell Davis?

After the way the Skins have played this year I wouldn't be against a HC change at the end of the year, but Shanahan is a good NFL HC. That's is fact.

Just heard about this:

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 2h
#Steelers sources expect Big Ben to ask them to explore trade options after 2013. They fielded offers for him last offseason. Could again

Interested to read what people on here would think of the Skins trading Griffin straight up for Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger has taken a beating over the last handful of years, but at 31 I wouldn't be opposed to the Skins doing such a thing. Big Ben is a winner.

No thanks on Big Ben. Too much mileage. The Steelers, like the Eagles tend to know when to let guys walk. The Steelers would wet themselves for that deal.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Here we go again. How about Elway never won a SB until Shanahan got him a running game in the 6th round in Terrell Davis?

After the way the Skins have played this year I wouldn't be against a HC change at the end of the year, but Shanahan is a good NFL HC. That's is fact.

Just heard about this:

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet 2h
#Steelers sources expect Big Ben to ask them to explore trade options after 2013. They fielded offers for him last offseason. Could again

Interested to read what people on here would think of the Skins trading Griffin straight up for Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger has taken a beating over the last handful of years, but at 31 I wouldn't be opposed to the Skins doing such a thing. Big Ben is a winner.

you want a old broken down QB for our young star QB we arent even finished playing for in draft picks...

Big ben isnt doing much winning right now?

yeh right

 

[Cush]

Wow @ Cincy/Bal

 

[QuadrupleDeke]

Interested to read what people on here would think of the Skins trading Griffin straight up for Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger has taken a beating over the last handful of years, but at 31 I wouldn't be opposed to the Skins doing such a thing. Big Ben is a winner.

Wait, what?

You have to be the worst at asset management of any poster on these boards. First you think an untested rookie quarterback is worth three firsts and a second, and then after trading all that for him you consider trading him straight up for a washed up quarterback on the wrong side of 30 who has played all 16 games exactly once in his NFL career.

Absolutely insane.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If Griffin is traded for Ben I'll lose my goddamned mind.

He's looked washed up every time I've seen him this season. Beyond that, it just wouldn't make any sense.

 

[RandyHolt]

Good thing McPhee is not our GM

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Wait, what?

You have to be the worst at asset management of any poster on these boards. First you think an untested rookie quarterback is worth three firsts and a second, and then after trading all that for him you consider trading him straight up for a washed up quarterback on the wrong side of 30 who has played all 16 games exactly once in his NFL career.

Absolutely insane.

Worst at asset management of any poster on these boards? Talk about insane.

Big difference between saying "I wouldn't be opposed to it" and saying "the Skins need to make this trade right now".

 

[QuadrupleDeke]

Worst at asset management of any poster on these boards? Talk about insane.

Big difference between saying "I wouldn't be opposed to it" and saying "the Skins need to make this trade right now".

If you wouldn't be opposed to an RG3 for Roethlisberger trade, then you know absolutely nothing about NFL asset management. None.

RG3 is a 23-year-old star quarterback making $4.8million this year and $5.8million next year, while Roethlisberger is a below-average 31-year-old making $13.6million this year and $17.9million next year (and he's signed for another expensive season after that).

RG3 is a top-10 trade asset in the entire league, while I wouldn't put Roethlisberger in the top 50 considering his age and contract (and the fact that he has played all 16 games in a season exactly once in his entire career).

You should be very opposed to that trade.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

If you wouldn't be opposed to an RG3 for Roethlisberger trade, then you know absolutely nothing about NFL asset management. None.

RG3 is a 23-year-old star quarterback making $4.8million this year and $5.8million next year, while Roethlisberger is a below-average 31-year-old making $13.6million this year and $17.9million next year (and he's signed for another expensive season after that).

RG3 is a top-10 trade asset in the entire league, while I wouldn't put Roethlisberger in the top 50 considering his age and contract (and the fact that he has played all 16 games in a season exactly once in his entire career).

You should be very opposed to that trade.

I played football in College and coached HS, but I have no NFL experience as a player, coach or front office person so you are right I dont' know much about NFL asset management because I don't have much experience at the NFL level beyond being a fan. You on the other hand sound like you must have NFL experience as a player, coach or front office person. Which team are you affiliated with?

There is more to me not being opposed to trading for Roethlisberger then just wanting to bail on a 23 year old QB for a 31 year old 2 time SB winner, but what is the point elaborating?

 

[QuadrupleDeke]

I played football in College and coached HS, but I have no NFL experience as a player, coach or front office person so you are right I dont' know much about NFL asset management because I don't have much experience at the NFL level beyond being a fan. You on the other hand sound like you must have NFL experience as a player, coach or front office person. Which team are you affiliated with?

There is more to me not being opposed to trading for Roethlisberger then just wanting to bail on a 23 year old QB for a 31 year old 2 time SB winner, but what is the point elaborating?

Keep defending it, man. It's making you look like a genius.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Keep defending it, man. It's making you look like a genius.

Will do, brah.