Prospect Info: 2013 Penguins Development Camp

[Ogrezilla]

I do think the drafting is at least somewhat influenced by the team understanding that they are better at evaluating and developing d-men.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

How has Forsberg (the legendary Pick 8 we passed on for Pouliot that almost gave some posters here a nervous breakdown) fared in his summer camps / development since last summer? There were a couple European posters in here who felt this guy was badly overrated. I haven't heard much about him since then.

He's impressed Trotz:

Nashville Predators coach Barry Trotz isn't sure how to describe it, but looking at Seth Jones and Filip Forsberg, he knows his top prospects have it.

"You've seen a lot of players, over my career, that you know have gone on to have careers and all that, and they carry themselves a certain way," Trotz said Tuesday at Predators development camp.

"I can't explain it, you just see it, and I think both of them have that little bit of that 'it factor,' whatever 'it' is. I really can't explain it, but they seem to have that."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=677372

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

How has Forsberg (the legendary Pick 8 we passed on for Pouliot that almost gave some posters here a nervous breakdown) fared in his summer camps / development since last summer? There were a couple European posters in here who felt this guy was badly overrated. I haven't heard much about him since then.

I truly think, in the end, management PLANS to move some of these kids for established forwards, just as they have in the past. IOW, they are very confident in their ability to pick and develop excellent D, and they prefer to do that and trade for F who have already proven themselves in the NHL, rather than trying to develop F in this system. Mgmt sees F picks in the bottom half of the 1st round (where we usually are) as a crap-shoot in terms of "will they ever make the Top 6"...

...so better to just target someone else's established forward (a guy they know can make our Top 6), and trade an NHL-ready, top-notch D asset for them. I almost don't care at this point how our F in camp look (either camp). The big picture is so bleak looking (The Kuhn? Sill? Payerl?) that the ONLY conclusion I can arrive at is, this is by design. They're passing on F prospects because they don't want the risk. They're never going to pick early enough (even at pick 8) to get a can't miss F prospect, so they go for the kids with the huge upside and if it works out fine and if it doesn't fine. Macaroni is one of those picks IMO. They take flyers on skilled guys that have slid down the rankings just in case, but they focus on the D.

But Yohe is still a dewshball for writing that article the way he did, before these guys have ever played a single game in black and gold.

I agree and I like the potential of guys they drafted this year like Guentzel and Byron who could both turn out to be top 6 forwards if they physically develop. They have the skill. I think we have plenty of room to add defenseman over the next couple years. When and if some of our better defense prospects are ready guys like Bortuzzo, Samuelsson and Dumoulin could be traded in 2-3 years after they have good value as established NHL defenseman and guys like Maatta, Harrington, and or Pouliot.

 

[Darth Vitale]

He's impressed Trotz:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=677372

Sounds like summertime PR-speak to me. Not very specific in his praise. We'll see if he gets the regular minutes out of camp; that's the only sure sign of an impressed coach.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I know absolutely nothing about other team's prospects. I just know ours aren't good.

I try to keep tabs on major prospects via nationally televised junior games and the World Juniors. Don't know too much about kids who develop in college and Europe and don't play internationally.

Our forward group is pathetic, relatively speaking. By far the lowest upside of any organization.

Sounds like summertime PR-speak to me. Not very specific in his praise. We'll see if he gets the regular minutes out of camp; that's the only sure sign of an impressed coach.

Trotz isn't usually givento that sort of thing. I'll say that Forsberg impressed me quite a bit with his offensive IQ and puck protection at the WJCs.

 

[Waffle Fries]

I try to keep tabs on major prospects via nationally televised junior games and the World Juniors. Don't know too much about kids who develop in college and Europe and don't play internationally.

Our forward group is pathetic, relatively speaking. By far the lowest upside of any organization.

I disagree. While we might not have any blue chip forwards who will make an impact in a few years, it's not like we're totally void of forwards that have an upside.

We certainly don't have a great or even good forward prospect pool, but it's 'ok' and saying it's the worst in the league is an exaggeration.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I disagree. While we might not have any blue chip forwards who will make an impact in a few years, it's not like we're totally void of forwards that have an upside.

We certainly don't have a great or even good forward prospect pool, but it's 'ok' and saying it's the worst in the league is an exaggeration.

Who's worse?

 

[Jacob]

I'm fine with our forward group sucking since we have the two best centers signed for another decade, plus Neal for the next 5 and hopefully Bennett will be around for a while too.

I'm concerned though that we don't even have many physical bottom-line guys in the system. Megna isn't cut out for a 4th line and I doubt that Wilson, Gibbons, Blueger etc. are either. I think it's important to have a lot of future bottom 6 guys because you don't want to be forced to fill such a role in free agency where you'll have to pay a premium for even the mediocre ones (like Glass). Or you end up having to hang onto a guy like Adams beyond his expiration date.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'm fine with our forward group sucking since we have the two best centers signed for another decade.

I'm concerned though that we don't even have many physical bottom-line guys in the system. Megna isn't cut out for a 4th line and I doubt that Wilson, Gibbons, Blueger etc. are either. I think it's important to have a lot of future bottom 6 guys because you don't want to be forced to fill such a role in free agency where you'll have to pay a premium for even the mediocre ones (like Glass).

I got the impression that Wilson, Archibald, and Rust were little buzzsaws who could fill F1 bottom 6 roles. Don't watch much college though so I haven't seen any of them firsthand.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Who's worse?

Colorado for sure. They have a lot of good young forwards in the NHL, but their prospect depth in the position is extremely weak.
San Jose has very poor depth in their prospect pool for wingers. The Coyotes have less forwards with upside than we do. I'd also put us over the Devils and Flyers.

Then there's teams like the Kings, Canucks, Capitals, Jets, Leafs, Sabres, and Hurricanes who I'd say we're similar to.

You could argue for or against us for those 7 teams depending on if you're looking at upside (as you originally mentioned) or likelihood of actually making it there.

 

[Jacob]

I got the impression that Wilson, Archibald, and Rust were little buzzsaws who could fill F1 bottom 6 roles. Don't watch much college though so I haven't seen any of them firsthand.

Maybe, but they're all average-sized to under-sized and while they play with a good tempo none of them are physical in an intimidating sense.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Who's worse?

Close to home, the Devils and Flyers are worse.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Maybe, but they're all average-sized to under-sized and while they play with a good tempo none of them are physical in an intimidating sense.

Rust is excellent on the PK and loves going to the hard areas to battle. I value those qualities much more than intimidation (honestly, is that even a thing in today's NHL? outside of like Frolik going in against Chara or something...).

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Colorado for sure. They have a lot of good young forwards in the NHL, but their prospect depth in the position is extremely weak.

Not a chance. MacKinnon (!), Hishon, and Sgarbossa are better than any forward prospect we have.

San Jose has very poor depth in their prospect pool for wingers. The Coyotes have less forwards with upside than we do. I'd also put us over the Devils and Flyers.

Prospects like Hertl, Samuelsson, Domi, Boucher, Matteau, and Laughton are in a class we just can't match, and those organizations have comparable depth.

Then there's teams like the Kings, Canucks, Capitals, Jets, Leafs, Sabres, and Hurricanes who I'd say we're similar to.

Come on, man.

You could argue for or against us for those 7 teams depending on if you're looking at upside (as you originally mentioned) or likelihood of actually making it there.

I just think that's hopelessly optimistic. You take our best forward prospects and match them up against anyone in the league, and we still fall short. I'd trade our forward group for any other team's in a heartbeat.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Bored at work post: I went through HF real quick and added up the number of forward prospects with a rating of 7 or higher on each team in the Pens conference. I made some quick additions/subtractions to each team based on graduations/draft/etc... probably not perfect, but it gives an idea.

I'm certainly not using this to make the claim that the Pens have the 2nd best crop of forwards in the conference. Just thought it was interesting that there is in fact a good amount of quality depth. Whether they make it to the NHL remains to be seen, but that goes for every team.

Mtl: 16
Pens: 9
Carolina: 8
Boston: 8
Florida: 8
TB: 7
Washington: 7
Detroit: 7
Columbus: 6
NYI: 6
NYR: 5
Buffalo: 5
Ottawa: 4
Philly: 3
NJ: 3
Toronto: 3

 

[Waffle Fries]

Not a chance. MacKinnon (!), Hishon, and Sgarbossa are better than any forward prospect we have.

I wasn't including MacKinnon as he'll be playing in the NHL this year. You can make an argument about Sgarbossa (and I don't agree), but Hishon is certainly not better than any forward prospect we have. After that they are completely baron and we have way more forwards with upside than they do.

Prospects like Hertl, Samuelsson, Domi, Boucher, Matteau, and Laughton are in a class we just can't match, and those organizations have comparable depth.

It's not about just one player, it's about the prospects as a group. The depth is not really comparable, some more so than others.

Come on, man.

What? Which of those teams are clearly better off than we are in terms of forwards?

I just think that's hopelessly optimistic. You take our best forward prospects and match them up against anyone in the league, and we still fall short. I'd trade our forward group for any other team's in a heartbeat.

I just really disagree.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Bored at work post: I went through HF real quick and added up the number of forward prospects with a rating of 7 or higher on each team in the Pens conference. I made some quick additions/subtractions to each team based on graduations/draft/etc... probably not perfect, but it gives an idea.

I'm certainly not using this to make the claim that the Pens have the 2nd best crop of forwards in the conference. Just thought it was interesting that there is in fact a good amount of quality depth. Whether they make it to the NHL remains to be seen, but that goes for every team.

Mtl: 16
Pens: 9
Carolina: 8
Boston: 8
Florida: 8
TB: 7
Washington: 7
Detroit: 7
Columbus: 6
NYI: 6
NYR: 5
Buffalo: 5
Ottawa: 4
Philly: 3
NJ: 3
Toronto: 3

Our ratings are very...ahem...generous.

Comparing to Detroit, Blueger and Sundqvist have the same numerical ratings as Jarnkrok and Tatar, and higher ratings than Frk and Jurco.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah, I appreciate the effort, there. But the Penguins' player ratings are kind of a joke. All in all the ratings system is kind of wacky, owing to the subset of letter grades.

I have to agree with RRP. The Penguins' crop of young forwards is pretty miserable, overall. Not just in top end ability but, like Jacob was saying, also when it comes to potential bottom six forwards. I, too would take just about any other team's over what the Penguins have. I think saying that they have nice "depth" is pretty disingenuous, too. To say they have an inordinate amount of projects is more accurate.

 

[Nietzsche Zone Play]

Our ratings are very...ahem...generous.

Comparing to Detroit, Blueger and Sundqvist have the same numerical ratings as Jarnkrok and Tatar, and higher ratings than Frk and Jurco.

You could certainly nitpick for every team - I didn't. Personally though I would probably only feel comfortable putting Tatar ahead of Blueger or Sundqvist in terms of ceiling. I think if those two were drafted in the 2nd/3rd rounds by Detroit some people would be talking about them differently.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I wasn't including MacKinnon as he'll be playing in the NHL this year. You can make an argument about Sgarbossa (and I don't agree), but Hishon is certainly not better than any forward prospect we have. After that they are completely baron and we have way more forwards with upside than they do.

He absolutely is. Concussions or not, he's simply a much more talented prospect than any forward we have.

What? Which of those teams are clearly better off than we are in terms of forwards?

All of them? Vey, Zykov, Pearson, Jensen, Horvat, Shinkaruk, freaking Kuznetsov, Wilson, Scheifele, Petan, Lowry, Grigorenko, Girgensons, Armia, Larsson, Lindholm...these guys are all a step above what we have.

The only team that arguably has a comparable forward pool is the Leafs, and Gauthier trumps any forward we've got.

I just really disagree.

Ditto. I just don't see where the optimism is coming from. Our standout at camp was Adam bloody Payerl. We have a collection of guys who have a chance to be muckers, and then some real longshots to be top 6ers.

 

[mr sidney crosby]

Our group doesn't include Beau Bennett. Bennett playing with Crosby could probably top out at 80 points.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Ditto. I just don't see where the optimism is coming from. Our standout at camp was Adam bloody Payerl. We have a collection of guys who have a chance to be muckers, and then some real longshots to be top 6ers.

I disagree with the other two parts of your post as well, but I'll just address this one.

It's not optimism. I don't think we have a good crop of forwards. But I think they are about average. I think it's disingenuous and a case of 'the grass is always greener' to say that we have the worst in the league.

And again in regards to Payerl, the only reason he was mentioned so much is because he is the closest to being NHL ready because of his size.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I disagree with the other two parts of your post as well, but I'll just address this one.

It's not optimism. I don't think we have a good crop of forwards. But I think they are about average. I think it's disingenuous and a case of 'the grass is always greener' to say that we have the worst in the league.

And again in regards to Payerl, the only reason he was mentioned so much is because he is the closest to being NHL ready because of his size.

Our top end is hilariously bad. We don't have anyone who reasonably projects to be a top sixer, man! On top of that, the guys who project to be bottom 6ers aren't even sure bets.

Most NHL ready or not, when the forward who makes the biggest impression in camp is someone who'll likely top out as a 4th liner, you have serious issues.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Our top end is hilariously bad. We don't have anyone who reasonably projects to be a top sixer, man! On top of that, the guys who project to be bottom 6ers aren't even sure bets.

Most NHL ready or not, when the forward who makes the biggest impression in camp is someone who'll likely top out as a 4th liner, you have serious issues.

We do have guys that project to be in the top six. Archibald, for example, wasn't at camp but has a shot. Most of the potential top six candidates need to gain size, and once they do we'll have a better idea on if they can make it. Plus if you're going to include guys like Grigorenko for Buffalo (as you did in a previous post), then you still have to count Bennett for us.

As far as the bottom sixers, I actually think we have quite a few that have a very, very good chance at making it to the NHL.

With Payerl, it wasn't a case of standing out or making the biggest impression. When he was brought up it was about who was the most NHL ready.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

We do have guys that project to be in the top six. Archibald, for example, wasn't at camp but has a shot. Most of the potential top six candidates need to gain size, and once they do we'll have a better idea on if they can make it. Plus if you're going to include guys like Grigorenko for Buffalo (as you did in a previous post), then you still have to count Bennett for us.

As far as the bottom sixers, I actually think we have quite a few that have a very, very good chance at making it to the NHL.

With Payerl, it wasn't a case of standing out or making the biggest impression. When he was brought up it was about who was the most NHL ready.

Yeah, but they're longshots with a capital "L". These guys don't have the pedigree or standout talent that virtually every other team has in some way. What we have is a bunch of late-drafted hardscrabble types, generally undersized, and with precious little natural skill.

You're right, Grigorenko shouldn't have been mentioned - didn't realize he had played that many games. Omit.

Payerl was specifically pointed out by Guerin as the guy who "stood out". NHL readiness wasn't mentioned.