1994-95 Hart Trophy Revisit

[Stephen]

Jagr was 33 or 34 and past his prime, which makes it even more impressive than Lindros. I was not aware awards were handed out based on "next one" status

Crosby 2006-07.

 

[Stephen]

I think Lindros deserved the Hart and correctly won it. In my opinion, Hasek had a better Hart argument for 1993-94. during which he was absolutely remarkable.

Coffey for the Hart in 1995? That seems unlikely to me because (to me) he was better in 1983-84 and 1984-85 than in 1995, and he wasn't even close to the Hart back then.

I think Hasek’s 1997 and 1998 Hart Trophies kind of cover his body of work from 1993-94 and up to the Nagano Olympics. Not lifetime Harts but more like long arc Harts where the full body of work and dominance were recognized.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think Lindros was a deserving winner and Coffey was up there as well with his effort to play a more rounded game that year to lead a talented club.

 

[Crosby2010]

Crosby 2006-07.

Sid deserved that Hart in 2007. The top 5 that year were Crosby, Luongo, Brodeur, Lecavalier and Thornton. No doubt the best forward that year was Crosby. Brodeur broke Bernie Parent's single season wins record with 48 wins and Luongo tied it with 47 (side note, Holtby has 48 wins in 2016 but that still remains the record even with shootouts). To be honest Brodeur and Luongo both had more or less identical type seasons and picking one is like picking a trip to Hawaii or Bahamas. You can't go wrong. I personally pick Brodeur over Luongo that year, but it was close, as was Vezina voting. But Sid definitely deserved it in 2007. He was the NHL's best player that year.

 

[Stephen]

Sid deserved that Hart in 2007. The top 5 that year were Crosby, Luongo, Brodeur, Lecavalier and Thornton. No doubt the best forward that year was Crosby. Brodeur broke Bernie Parent's single season wins record with 48 wins and Luongo tied it with 47 (side note, Holtby has 48 wins in 2016 but that still remains the record even with shootouts). To be honest Brodeur and Luongo both had more or less identical type seasons and picking one is like picking a trip to Hawaii or Bahamas. You can't go wrong. I personally pick Brodeur over Luongo that year, but it was close, as was Vezina voting. But Sid definitely deserved it in 2007. He was the NHL's best player that year.

Of course Crosby did. Just like Lindros. Because those franchise player breakout years which bring their dead teams back to the playoffs is just classic Hart material.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Of course Crosby did. Just like Lindros. Because those franchise player breakout years which bring their dead teams back to the playoffs is just classic Hart material.

quinn hughes last year

(i’ll see myself out now)

 

[authentic]

anecdotally coffey displayed a much better than usual defensive/all-round game for bowman that year but a statistical case for him:


team

led the best team in the league (5 pt cushion for the presidents trophy) in scoring by 8 pts, had more assists than anyone other than fedorov had pts

led the best PP in the league (tied with chicago) in scoring by 12 pts, 8 more PP assists than anyone had pts

led detroit in +/-

2nd on team in PPGA, so he did kill his share of penalties on the league’s second ranked PK


dmen

led all dmen in scoring by 15, more assists than anyone had pts

led dmen in goals

led dmen in ES scoring


all players

6th in league scoring (and if bowman hadn’t rested him in the last game of the season, he very likely would have finished top five, as he was just one pt back of francis)

led the league in PP scoring

led the league in goals on ice for by 11

led the league in PP goals on ice for by 4


his icetime must have been astronomical and the results, both individually and team success, were stellar

and it probably doesn’t need to be mentioned but these numbers are (1) as a dman and (2) in a 48 game season so the lead margins look smaller than they really are

When I see stuff like this I think the idea of Coffey not being a top 10 defenseman of all-time might be wrong.

 

[Crosby2010]

Of course Crosby did. Just like Lindros. Because those franchise player breakout years which bring their dead teams back to the playoffs is just classic Hart material.

I still think he deserved it in 2007 though. And that was a strong year for the Hart too.

When I see stuff like this I think the idea of Coffey not being a top 10 defenseman of all-time might be wrong.

He definitely could get more love from people on these boards. Coffey could coast in the regular season defensively but I never thought in the playoffs he was like that, nor did he not step up in big games. He won 4 Cups for a reason. As for the top 10, that's a hard list to crack, but I have him in there personally. In somewhat order:

Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Shore, Potvin, Lidstrom, Kelly, Robinson, Coffey/Chelios

Honestly, if I am to make an argument I don't see why he isn't a top 10 defenseman. Who else belongs there convincingly other than Coffey?

 

[authentic]

I still think he deserved it in 2007 though. And that was a strong year for the Hart too.



He definitely could get more love from people on these boards. Coffey could coast in the regular season defensively but I never thought in the playoffs he was like that, nor did he not step up in big games. He won 4 Cups for a reason. As for the top 10, that's a hard list to crack, but I have him in there personally. In somewhat order:

Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Shore, Potvin, Lidstrom, Kelly, Robinson, Coffey/Chelios

Honestly, if I am to make an argument I don't see why he isn't a top 10 defenseman. Who else belongs there convincingly other than Coffey?

Yeah I think that’s my top 10 as well. Tough to say who I would have in there ahead of Coffey.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Yeah I think that’s my top 10 as well. Tough to say who I would have in there ahead of Coffey.

That's a very solid top ten. If we're taking non NHL careers into account, Fetisov would push either Coffey or Chelios off the list.

I used to think Brad Park had a case too, but I've (somewhat) lowered my opinion on him over the past several years. (He looks really good based on how he fared in Norris trophy voting, but aside from Orr, the competition was relatively weak in several of those seasons. He was an amazing defenseman, of course, but I don't think he has a compelling case for the top 10).

 

[Stephen]

Getting off topic, but Coffey really suffers from having too long of a career and too much of a journeyman's career in his declining years. If he just didn't play in 1997-2001 his reputation probably improves.

 

[Crosby2010]

Yeah I think that’s my top 10 as well. Tough to say who I would have in there ahead of Coffey.

Already mentioned but Fetisov and Park are the two candidates. I can't put Park in the top 10, and Fetisov was awfully good as we know but he didn't get into the NHL until he was 31. The best we can do is compare him to Coffey/Bourque from 1989-'90 onwards and he loses there. It is the 1980s where we can try to speculate how good he was had he been in the NHL. I am okay with him #11 or #12 on the list but I can't put him ahead of Coffey personally. All of Pronger, Leetch, MacInnis, Horton, Stevens, Salming, Pilote, etc. didn't have Coffey's career despite all being Hall of Famers. Makar is a name I'd expect to bump several defensemen on that list eventually.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Jagr or Zhamnov

 

[Regal]

I think Lindros had a good argument as the best player and most valuable but the narrative of the “next one” turning his team around was definitely a major narrative in him winning.

I like Lindros over Jagr, as they were basically equal producers and possession players but Lindros was better defensively and added rare game-changing physicality.

Hasek is tougher. Statistically he make a solid case, though it’s interesting he didn’t do as well in the Vezina vote as you would think, finishing 17-6-1 out of 26 GMs. Save percentage wasn’t as prominent in those days so that may have been a factor, but from what I remember/read from others, something about the season didn’t feel as special as ‘94 or ‘97 or ‘98.

I never really considered Coffey much but vadimsharifijanov make a compelling case.

I would probably stick with Lindros, but it’s interesting that you had a top 4 Hart vote with the best C, W, D and G in the league where all of them were near-unanimous in All Star voting (Jagr and Hasek had 1 second place vote each). Makes it difficult to compare given the different positions.

 

[Stephen]

Hasek is tougher. Statistically he make a solid case, though it’s interesting he didn’t do as well in the Vezina vote as you would think, finishing 17-6-1 out of 26 GMs. Save percentage wasn’t as prominent in those days so that may have been a factor, but from what I remember/read from others, something about the season didn’t feel as special as ‘94 or ‘97 or ‘98.

With Hasek, you always have to remember that the last goaltender to win the Hart was Jacques Plante in 1962 and they already had the Vezina and Jennings to cover. It's not like the NHL just handed it out to goalies. I like to think by the time Hasek finally broke through in 1998 they were giving him that award encompassing everything done from 1993-onwards, including the Nagano games.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Getting off topic, but Coffey really suffers from having too long of a career and too much of a journeyman's career in his declining years. If he just didn't play in 1997-2001 his reputation probably improves.

i agree, but only statistically. i don’t think anybody remembers watching post-detroit coffey when they think about him.

one way or another bourque was going to catch him. but the way it worked out, with bourque forcefully passing him in their shared last year in the league, makes it look like offensively coffey didn’t have a gigantic gap on bourque, which of course he did.

1980 to 1996

bourque: 1228 games, 343 goals, 970 assists, 1313 pts

coffey: 1154 games, 372 goals, 1038 assists, 1410 pts

and this is with coffey not being in the league yet in the first year

whereas, 1997 to 2001

coffey: 255 games, 24 goals, 97 assists, 121 pts

bourque: 384 games, 67 goals, 199 assists, 266 pts

bourque kept playing full seasons and putting up 50 to 60 pts a year, while coffey missed a lot of time and his offence fell off a cliff.

so in the end, to ppl who never watched prime coffey, you can make the argument that coffey wasn’t that much better than bourque offensively. but he was. offensively he was the closest thing we’ve seen to orr. and that would be totally obvious by their career totals if coffey had retired in 1996.

coffey: 1154 games, 372 goals, 1038 assists, 1410 pts

bourque: 1612 games, 410 goals, 1169 assists, 1579 pts

 

[MadLuke]

This is 88 pts vs 100 pts by 82 games pace (Bourque vs Coffey), in that 80 to 96 stretch.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

This is 88 pts vs 100 pts by 82 games pace (Bourque vs Coffey), in that 80 to 96 stretch.

and if you break it down further, the gap just gets wider

their 20s (1983–91)

coffey: 735 games, 298 goals, 715 assists, 1013 pts (110 pts/80)
bourque: 723 games, 207 goals, 606 assists, 813 pts (90 pts/80)


absolute offensive peaks (1984–87)

coffey: 298 games, 142 goals, 310 assists, 452 pts (121 pts/80)
bourque: 303 games, 93 goals, 261 assists, 354 pts (93 pts/80)

 

[ozzie]

I would have had no problem with Hasek winning it, luckily he went on to win 2 anyhow. Bowman would have had a break down if Coffey won, he wasn't a fan.

I still think Jagr over Eric, if not for Eric being the 'next one' and new face of the league. i still thing this played a part in him winning. Jagr went on to win several anyhow, so in the end. All good.

 

[Felidae]

Looks to be near unanimous that Lindros was the rightful winner.

Would Hasek and Jagr have been your Finalists as well? I think I'd have Coffey over Jagr but all 4 were well deserving Hart finalists.

 

[Crosby2010]

I would have had no problem with Hasek winning it, luckily he went on to win 2 anyhow. Bowman would have had a break down if Coffey won, he wasn't a fan.

I still think Jagr over Eric, if not for Eric being the 'next one' and new face of the league. i still thing this played a part in him winning. Jagr went on to win several anyhow, so in the end. All good.

Surprisingly, just the one Hart Jagr won in 1999. It lines up with Richard only winning one Hart in his career too. It surprises people. It was the Art Ross Jagr won many times of course.

I just think the overall physicality of Lindros makes him the clear winner here. He was a force without the puck on his stick simply because of how he hit. He was still young then, still tearing up the ice and crunching guys and hadn't had Stevens or Hal Gill or Kaspar give them one of their crushing hits yet that he got hurt from. He burned the candle at both ends and it didn't last long, but man when he was at that physical level with no fear he was tantalizing.

With Hasek, you always have to remember that the last goaltender to win the Hart was Jacques Plante in 1962 and they already had the Vezina and Jennings to cover. It's not like the NHL just handed it out to goalies. I like to think by the time Hasek finally broke through in 1998 they were giving him that award encompassing everything done from 1993-onwards, including the Nagano games.

I think the Jagr/Lindros competition was a bit sharper in 1995 than what Hasek faced in 1997. There were injuries to star players in 1997, Mario had "only" a 122 point season and he was basically competing against himself for the Hart. So it was more of a clear path for Hasek. And 1998 forget about it, that was his Hart all day and in MANY seasons in NHL history.

I am just trying to think of the time a goalie should have or could have won the Hart in between 1962 and 1997. Because even since 1998 its only been Price and Theodore. I am thinking Thomas had a good chance in 2011, maybe Brodeur in 2007, but no one stands out. Prior to 1997 I am trying to pin point a time as well. 1994 you had Hasek, Beezer and Roy in the top 5 in Hart voting. Although Fedorov won that one by a mile. Roy was 2nd in 1992, but a mile behind Messier who got all but 2 first place votes. Fuhr finished 2nd in 1988 but that was Mario's year and it wasn't close. Liut finishes a close 2nd to Gretzky in 1981. It was quite close actually. Vachon in 1975 finished 2nd and was close to Orr. Parent finished 2nd in 1974 to Esposito who won it clearly but Parent certainly had support. Dryden was relatively close in 1972 as well. Tony Esposito finished 2nd in 1970 with his great year but that would have been hard to unseat Orr.

Honestly, it's Liut who is the closest and I don't think he should have won it in 1981 either. I can't make a case for him over Gretzky, I wonder how it was so close. Gretzky shattered offensive records that year and he was only starting. Its hard for a goalie to win the Hart. Even in 1998, 2002 and 2015 it was done because of a low offensive year for forwards. 1997 to a lesser extent too. In 1962 Plante had a sweet year, led the NHL in lots of categories and the Habs had by far the best record in the NHL. Hull seemed to get some love to with his 50 goals but overall that was hard to beat Plante's year.

 

[Stephen]

I would have had no problem with Hasek winning it, luckily he went on to win 2 anyhow. Bowman would have had a break down if Coffey won, he wasn't a fan.

I still think Jagr over Eric, if not for Eric being the 'next one' and new face of the league. i still thing this played a part in him winning. Jagr went on to win several anyhow, so in the end. All good.

People have to remember 1995 Jagr was not yet Jagr even at the point production he came in at. He had yet to break the 100 point mark despite playing in the early 90s and Pittsburgh was still an offensive powerhouse coming off their glory years. That singular offensive juggernaut that Jagr would become would come in 1996.

 

[The Panther]

Liut 1981 Pearson.
Carlyle 1981 Norris.
(And yes , I'ma say it -- Thornton 2006 Hart.)
Hall 2018 Hart.

These are the award wins that keep me up at night. But thank God Liut didn't win the 1981 Hart, or the universe as we know it may have imploded... and that was back when Happy Days and Laverne & Shirley were still on.

 

[Sentinel]

Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Shore, Potvin, Lidstrom, Kelly, Robinson, Coffey/Chelios

Honestly, if I am to make an argument I don't see why he isn't a top 10 defenseman. Who else belongs there convincingly other than Coffey?

Fetisov?

 

[Crosby2010]

Liut 1981 Pearson.
Carlyle 1981 Norris.
(And yes , I'ma say it -- Thornton 2006 Hart.)
Hall 2018 Hart.

These are the award wins that keep me up at night. But thank God Liut didn't win the 1981 Hart, or the universe as we know it may have imploded... and that was back when Happy Days and Laverne & Shirley were still on.

Mario's Pearson award in 1986 too. I just can't grasp how a guy wins this award when he had 22 points less than the actual leader had assists that season. Were the players just sick of Gretzky at that time and had their own voter fatigue?

Carlyle in 1981 I agree, and Liut too. I was more of a fan of MacKinnon in 2018 over Hall. But I have to ask, Thornton in 2006? Why him? He ticked off a lot of boxes. Led the NHL in points, led the NHL in assists and only 4 players in NHL history had more than him in a season that year. Was the reason Cheechoo won the Rocket. He is a solid pick for the Hart. Jagr is close granted, but I think there is a better case for Thornton.

Fetisov?

That's a tough list to crack though. Who do you take off? Maybe take off Chelios and put Fetisov in at #10. I wouldn't take Coffey off of the top 10. With Fetisov we have the 1980s to judge him on and it is just taking an educated guess how he competes with Bourque and Coffey for the Norrises. He would do just fine in an 80 game season I think. But what bothers me a bit is that we do have Fetisov from 1989-'98 in the NHL. Now I know there was a shift in cultures from the Soviet Union to North America, the language is different and he's 31 and had played a lot of exhausting hockey under Tikhonov by then. So we aren't seeing him at his best. But even so, he isn't even close to either one of Bourque or Coffey from 1989-'98. I think he's pretty close to them in the 1980s, just by guessing and seeing how he played and seeing his stats in Canada Cups and World Championships/Olympics and such. We also saw how he played on the ice, and he was certainly Doug Harvey-ish if I would describe it any way. Bourque-like too.

But I don't think you can rank him higher since he is miles behind them in the 1990s. Every season from Coffey from 1989-'96 was an elite year. Perhaps 1992 is his "worst" year. But he's still among the elite defenseman until 1996. Fetisov wasn't an elite defender in the 1990s. Bourque was still winning Norrises up until 1994 and still had good years after that, pretty much right up until 2001. I can't put Fetisov ahead of Coffey when you saw them head to head in the 1990s and even on the same team and saw that Coffey was better. We can factor in that Fetisov was tired and such but it wasn't as if Coffey and Bourque didn't play a lot of hockey either. 80 game seasons, Canada Cups, long playoff runs, etc.