1994-95 Hart Trophy Revisit

[Stephen]

Jagr was 33 or 34 and past his prime, which makes it even more impressive than Lindros. I was not aware awards were handed out based on "next one" status

Crosby 2006-07.

 

[Stephen]

I think Lindros deserved the Hart and correctly won it. In my opinion, Hasek had a better Hart argument for 1993-94. during which he was absolutely remarkable.

Coffey for the Hart in 1995? That seems unlikely to me because (to me) he was better in 1983-84 and 1984-85 than in 1995, and he wasn't even close to the Hart back then.

I think Hasek’s 1997 and 1998 Hart Trophies kind of cover his body of work from 1993-94 and up to the Nagano Olympics. Not lifetime Harts but more like long arc Harts where the full body of work and dominance were recognized.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think Lindros was a deserving winner and Coffey was up there as well with his effort to play a more rounded game that year to lead a talented club.

 

[Crosby2010]

Crosby 2006-07.

Sid deserved that Hart in 2007. The top 5 that year were Crosby, Luongo, Brodeur, Lecavalier and Thornton. No doubt the best forward that year was Crosby. Brodeur broke Bernie Parent's single season wins record with 48 wins and Luongo tied it with 47 (side note, Holtby has 48 wins in 2016 but that still remains the record even with shootouts). To be honest Brodeur and Luongo both had more or less identical type seasons and picking one is like picking a trip to Hawaii or Bahamas. You can't go wrong. I personally pick Brodeur over Luongo that year, but it was close, as was Vezina voting. But Sid definitely deserved it in 2007. He was the NHL's best player that year.

 

[Stephen]

Sid deserved that Hart in 2007. The top 5 that year were Crosby, Luongo, Brodeur, Lecavalier and Thornton. No doubt the best forward that year was Crosby. Brodeur broke Bernie Parent's single season wins record with 48 wins and Luongo tied it with 47 (side note, Holtby has 48 wins in 2016 but that still remains the record even with shootouts). To be honest Brodeur and Luongo both had more or less identical type seasons and picking one is like picking a trip to Hawaii or Bahamas. You can't go wrong. I personally pick Brodeur over Luongo that year, but it was close, as was Vezina voting. But Sid definitely deserved it in 2007. He was the NHL's best player that year.

Of course Crosby did. Just like Lindros. Because those franchise player breakout years which bring their dead teams back to the playoffs is just classic Hart material.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Of course Crosby did. Just like Lindros. Because those franchise player breakout years which bring their dead teams back to the playoffs is just classic Hart material.

quinn hughes last year

(i’ll see myself out now)

 

[authentic]

anecdotally coffey displayed a much better than usual defensive/all-round game for bowman that year but a statistical case for him:


team

led the best team in the league (5 pt cushion for the presidents trophy) in scoring by 8 pts, had more assists than anyone other than fedorov had pts

led the best PP in the league (tied with chicago) in scoring by 12 pts, 8 more PP assists than anyone had pts

led detroit in +/-

2nd on team in PPGA, so he did kill his share of penalties on the league’s second ranked PK


dmen

led all dmen in scoring by 15, more assists than anyone had pts

led dmen in goals

led dmen in ES scoring


all players

6th in league scoring (and if bowman hadn’t rested him in the last game of the season, he very likely would have finished top five, as he was just one pt back of francis)

led the league in PP scoring

led the league in goals on ice for by 11

led the league in PP goals on ice for by 4


his icetime must have been astronomical and the results, both individually and team success, were stellar

and it probably doesn’t need to be mentioned but these numbers are (1) as a dman and (2) in a 48 game season so the lead margins look smaller than they really are

When I see stuff like this I think the idea of Coffey not being a top 10 defenseman of all-time might be wrong.

 

[Crosby2010]

Of course Crosby did. Just like Lindros. Because those franchise player breakout years which bring their dead teams back to the playoffs is just classic Hart material.

I still think he deserved it in 2007 though. And that was a strong year for the Hart too.

When I see stuff like this I think the idea of Coffey not being a top 10 defenseman of all-time might be wrong.

He definitely could get more love from people on these boards. Coffey could coast in the regular season defensively but I never thought in the playoffs he was like that, nor did he not step up in big games. He won 4 Cups for a reason. As for the top 10, that's a hard list to crack, but I have him in there personally. In somewhat order:

Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Shore, Potvin, Lidstrom, Kelly, Robinson, Coffey/Chelios

Honestly, if I am to make an argument I don't see why he isn't a top 10 defenseman. Who else belongs there convincingly other than Coffey?

 

[authentic]

I still think he deserved it in 2007 though. And that was a strong year for the Hart too.



He definitely could get more love from people on these boards. Coffey could coast in the regular season defensively but I never thought in the playoffs he was like that, nor did he not step up in big games. He won 4 Cups for a reason. As for the top 10, that's a hard list to crack, but I have him in there personally. In somewhat order:

Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Shore, Potvin, Lidstrom, Kelly, Robinson, Coffey/Chelios

Honestly, if I am to make an argument I don't see why he isn't a top 10 defenseman. Who else belongs there convincingly other than Coffey?

Yeah I think that’s my top 10 as well. Tough to say who I would have in there ahead of Coffey.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Yeah I think that’s my top 10 as well. Tough to say who I would have in there ahead of Coffey.

That's a very solid top ten. If we're taking non NHL careers into account, Fetisov would push either Coffey or Chelios off the list.

I used to think Brad Park had a case too, but I've (somewhat) lowered my opinion on him over the past several years. (He looks really good based on how he fared in Norris trophy voting, but aside from Orr, the competition was relatively weak in several of those seasons. He was an amazing defenseman, of course, but I don't think he has a compelling case for the top 10).

 

[Stephen]

Getting off topic, but Coffey really suffers from having too long of a career and too much of a journeyman's career in his declining years. If he just didn't play in 1997-2001 his reputation probably improves.

 

[Crosby2010]

Yeah I think that’s my top 10 as well. Tough to say who I would have in there ahead of Coffey.

Already mentioned but Fetisov and Park are the two candidates. I can't put Park in the top 10, and Fetisov was awfully good as we know but he didn't get into the NHL until he was 31. The best we can do is compare him to Coffey/Bourque from 1989-'90 onwards and he loses there. It is the 1980s where we can try to speculate how good he was had he been in the NHL. I am okay with him #11 or #12 on the list but I can't put him ahead of Coffey personally. All of Pronger, Leetch, MacInnis, Horton, Stevens, Salming, Pilote, etc. didn't have Coffey's career despite all being Hall of Famers. Makar is a name I'd expect to bump several defensemen on that list eventually.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Jagr or Zhamnov

 

[Regal]

I think Lindros had a good argument as the best player and most valuable but the narrative of the “next one” turning his team around was definitely a major narrative in him winning.

I like Lindros over Jagr, as they were basically equal producers and possession players but Lindros was better defensively and added rare game-changing physicality.

Hasek is tougher. Statistically he make a solid case, though it’s interesting he didn’t do as well in the Vezina vote as you would think, finishing 17-6-1 out of 26 GMs. Save percentage wasn’t as prominent in those days so that may have been a factor, but from what I remember/read from others, something about the season didn’t feel as special as ‘94 or ‘97 or ‘98.

I never really considered Coffey much but vadimsharifijanov make a compelling case.

I would probably stick with Lindros, but it’s interesting that you had a top 4 Hart vote with the best C, W, D and G in the league where all of them were near-unanimous in All Star voting (Jagr and Hasek had 1 second place vote each). Makes it difficult to compare given the different positions.

 

[Stephen]

Hasek is tougher. Statistically he make a solid case, though it’s interesting he didn’t do as well in the Vezina vote as you would think, finishing 17-6-1 out of 26 GMs. Save percentage wasn’t as prominent in those days so that may have been a factor, but from what I remember/read from others, something about the season didn’t feel as special as ‘94 or ‘97 or ‘98.

With Hasek, you always have to remember that the last goaltender to win the Hart was Jacques Plante in 1962 and they already had the Vezina and Jennings to cover. It's not like the NHL just handed it out to goalies. I like to think by the time Hasek finally broke through in 1998 they were giving him that award encompassing everything done from 1993-onwards, including the Nagano games.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Getting off topic, but Coffey really suffers from having too long of a career and too much of a journeyman's career in his declining years. If he just didn't play in 1997-2001 his reputation probably improves.

i agree, but only statistically. i don’t think anybody remembers watching post-detroit coffey when they think about him.

one way or another bourque was going to catch him. but the way it worked out, with bourque forcefully passing him in their shared last year in the league, makes it look like offensively coffey didn’t have a gigantic gap on bourque, which of course he did.

1980 to 1996

bourque: 1228 games, 343 goals, 970 assists, 1313 pts

coffey: 1154 games, 372 goals, 1038 assists, 1410 pts

and this is with coffey not being in the league yet in the first year

whereas, 1997 to 2001

coffey: 255 games, 24 goals, 97 assists, 121 pts

bourque: 384 games, 67 goals, 199 assists, 266 pts

bourque kept playing full seasons and putting up 50 to 60 pts a year, while coffey missed a lot of time and his offence fell off a cliff.

so in the end, to ppl who never watched prime coffey, you can make the argument that coffey wasn’t that much better than bourque offensively. but he was. offensively he was the closest thing we’ve seen to orr. and that would be totally obvious by their career totals if coffey had retired in 1996.

coffey: 1154 games, 372 goals, 1038 assists, 1410 pts

bourque: 1612 games, 410 goals, 1169 assists, 1579 pts

 

[MadLuke]

This is 88 pts vs 100 pts by 82 games pace (Bourque vs Coffey), in that 80 to 96 stretch.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

This is 88 pts vs 100 pts by 82 games pace (Bourque vs Coffey), in that 80 to 96 stretch.

and if you break it down further, the gap just gets wider

their 20s (1983–91)

coffey: 735 games, 298 goals, 715 assists, 1013 pts (110 pts/80)
bourque: 723 games, 207 goals, 606 assists, 813 pts (90 pts/80)


absolute offensive peaks (1984–87)

coffey: 298 games, 142 goals, 310 assists, 452 pts (121 pts/80)
bourque: 303 games, 93 goals, 261 assists, 354 pts (93 pts/80)

 

[ozzie]

I would have had no problem with Hasek winning it, luckily he went on to win 2 anyhow. Bowman would have had a break down if Coffey won, he wasn't a fan.

I still think Jagr over Eric, if not for Eric being the 'next one' and new face of the league. i still thing this played a part in him winning. Jagr went on to win several anyhow, so in the end. All good.

 

[Felidae]

Looks to be near unanimous that Lindros was the rightful winner.

Would Hasek and Jagr have been your Finalists as well? I think I'd have Coffey over Jagr but all 4 were well deserving Hart finalists.