Not at all. First off, a 65-70 point center is clearly a player of first line quality at the NHL-level, the fact that Grigorenko has the potential to even exceed this offensive output speaks volumes about his talent. Secondly you spent the better time of the last year to invent fictional aspects and things about the kid's game and his character, which he has already proven to be wrong with his play at this point. You questioned his work ethic, effort, dedication, character, his ability to play in big games, his offensive upside and simply, without any substance, used every Russian stereotype that came to your mind against him. Even if he doesn't make it to the NHL-level(which is a possibility for EVERY prospect) and your bad or blinded(?) talent evaluation aside, you don't have the right to make claims about someone's character you haven't even talked to once.
12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.
- Thread starter Leaf Rocket
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
- Status
Not at all. First off, a 65-70 point center is clearly a player of first line quality at the NHL-level, the fact that Grigorenko has the potential to even exceed this offensive output speaks volumes about his talent. Secondly you spent the better time of the last year to invent fictional aspects and things about the kid's game and his character, which he has already proven to be wrong with his play at this point. You questioned his work ethic, effort, dedication, character, his ability to play in big games, his offensive upside and simply, without any substance, used every Russian stereotype that came to your mind against him. Even if he doesn't make it to the NHL-level(which is a possibility for EVERY prospect) and your bad or blinded(?) talent evaluation aside, you don't have the right to make claims about someone's character you haven't even talked to once.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
Points are not everything, a center like Toews getting 70 points is a franchise C with all the intangibles he brings to a team, understand the difference.
Secondly, he slipped to #12 when he was a top 2 pick for much of the year, so there are a lot of blindfolds I guess in hockey opinions.
ULF_55
Moderator
He did okay against older players at the WJC, that's certain. Better than some 2012's in the tournament.
Stepped up in some of the big games, didn't seem to have stage fright that one 2012 exhibited.
Not sure I'd confirm my opinion on a player during a period he has mono.
Although Grigo's two way game is nowhere near elite, it isn't bad enough to not calling him a first liner at your speculated offensive output. It is solid in fact, which you would be able to observe as well, if you evaluate him objectively.
Scouts and NHL teams make mistakes, too, we've seen it before and we will see it again.
Last edited:
Exactly, among the 2012's I would rank his performance second behind Trouba(unless I'm missing someone).
ULF_55
Moderator
Leaf Rocket
Leaf Fan Till I Die
I guess Zherdev, Nilsson, Bernier and Co. were just better
He's quite young and still can turn it around. Zherdev didn't lack talent, he lacked a good head to stay over here. Grigo who many didn't want, has been playing extremely well and has outplayed the first overall/captain of his team in UFA and carried their team quite a bit.
Could he have been first overall ? Questionable but his talent and so far what he has been saying says otherwise
TheMadHatTrick
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2008
- 7,160
- 3,349
I'd love to pick up one of Shinkaruk, Pulock, or Lazar if picking outside the top 5. Possibly due to my WHL bias haha.
Lazar's stat line might turn people off, but he doesn't get as many quality minutes to produce in Edmonton as other players do. He could be the best defensive forward in the Draft and is a very good goal scorer.
Another player I don't think gets as much credit as he should is Kerby Rychel. Gritty winger with good size and looks to be an excellent goal scorer.
Lazar's stat line might turn people off, but he doesn't get as many quality minutes to produce in Edmonton as other players do. He could be the best defensive forward in the Draft and is a very good goal scorer.
Another player I don't think gets as much credit as he should is Kerby Rychel. Gritty winger with good size and looks to be an excellent goal scorer.
TheMadHatTrick
Registered User
- Nov 2, 2008
- 7,160
- 3,349
You're probably right Terrence. I would be ecstatic if he did though. I think it would take a guy like Nichushkin going in the top 6 to make a guy drop though. I love the depth of this draft regardless. We can get solid prospects all the way into the 3rd round, based on the lists I've seen.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
Nichuskin is a top 4 prospect to me, he blows Barkov out of the water IMO.
SarcazemKadri
Registered User
Reasoning?
I like Nichushkin, I think hes a great player. However in my viewings of him I see a player with tunnel vision. He doesn't utilize his line mates well and because of it often makes poor decisions. His hockey IQ could definitely be questioned. Barkov on the other hand has hockey IQ in spades with great hands. The only knock on his game is skating, which time and time again has proven to be the easiest skill to acquire and develop. Skating can be improved, hockey IQ cannot.
Barkov > Nichushkin
theIceWookie
#LeafHysteriaAlert
Lazar still interests me a lot. He hasn't taken the expected offensive jump that some thought he could (me included) but he very well could be getting "staaled" on the Oil Kings. However maybe his total upside isn't as high as originally thought. Still an interesting mid first round pick.
Rychel has become sort of the forgotten guy. He was seen as having some pretty high power forward potential (although one amateur OHL scout I know wasn't totally impressed but still saw some upside). He's sort of been good but not amazing, and sort of lost some steam to a guy like Mantha or Erne. But he still looks like an excellent scoring forward.
The Magic Man
With God given hands
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
If you watch Nichuskin play, you can easily see he has the potential to dominate a game. His skating is miles ahead of Barkov's, he uses his size, he impacts a game when it is on the line, you can see he wants to make a difference. Whether this was in the under 17 tourney when Russia beat Canada, or at the Worlds in the bronze medal game. He is a dynamic player, I have been preaching this since August. Hockey IQ bad? Says who? I certainly do not see this.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
Hockey IQ bad, because he couldn't figure out when and who to pass the puck to if you drew it on a whiteboard.
You watched him in the World Juniors, how did you not see him continuously not use his teammates? The commentators pointed it out on a few occasions.
And Barkov doesn't use his size? You clearly just REFUSE to watch anything of the kid. Using his size to score rebound goals, puck protection in the offensive zone, driving the net with the puck... But hey, I guess none of tht has anything to do with properly using a big frame...
Dynamic players have multiple elements to their game. When your game simply revolves around bullishly driving the net, and not a heck of a lot else at the moment (at least from what was shown in the WJC and super series), that's not a dynamic player.
I think he's a top-8 talent, but the Russian factor, and his much needed development in his own zone and off the puck screams anything but dynamic.
The beat goes on.
The Magic Man
With God given hands
Last year I thought your were anti-russian, now I think your just anti-fanboy. Whatever the player is that everyone likes, you dislike and throw in your favourite.
Last year everyone was gushing over the chance to get one of Galchenyuk or Grigorenko, and you knocked them every chance you got. Pushing guys like Dumba and Faksa.
This year it's Barkov. Now you want a player that is most commonly seen as a 7-10 spot at 4. You can't even agree that MacKinnon would be the best choice for the Leafs over Jones. Although that's not too outrageous.
You constantly say you like the position of contrarian. Stating that's why you like Button over most consensus draft rankings. That he's not afraid to be out of the norm. I get it, but I get sick of seeing you derail threads simply for the purpose of argument. you claim to be 'friends' with guys like Ernieleafs, despite the fact he adamantly denies this, claiming friendly banter, when really it's just a chance for you to belittle others opinions.
You remind too much of so many that irritate the hell out of me in my own family
. They (especially my mom) take opposite sides of you on any topic. They will even flip flop on you just to not agree and keep the argument going.On the Barkov vs whatever debate, the reality is that if all pans out for these prospects, he fits the bill for our needs more then anyone in this draft. Big, strong, 2way playmaking center with a high offensive upside. That's all it is with him, that fans see a serious hole being filled with him. Nichuskin could do it to, but according to scouts, a little less likely. It's the same reason I brought up Gauthier a few days ago. Someone who fits the bill, to a tee, a little higher up the draft. I think if we get Luongo, we're likely looking at a 12-20 pick. I'd like it if we took a flyer on Frederick Gauthier. On paper he looks like a perfect fit. BIG, offensive player. According to ISS Hockey, he is a 2way power forward:
From their twitter feed. He's trending upward. They had him at 26, then 22, been as high as ~15 on mynhldraft.com.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
Last year I thought your were anti-russian, now I think your just anti-fanboy. Whatever the player is that everyone likes, you dislike and throw in your favourite.
Last year everyone was gushing over the chance to get one of Galchenyuk or Grigorenko, and you knocked them every chance you got. Pushing guys like Dumba and Faksa.
This year it's Barkov. Now you want a player that is most commonly seen as a 7-10 spot at 4. You can't even agree that MacKinnon would be the best choice for the Leafs over Jones. Although that's not too outrageous.
You constantly say you like the position of contrarian. Stating that's why you like Button over most consensus draft rankings. That he's not afraid to be out of the norm. I get it, but I get sick of seeing you derail threads simply for the purpose of argument. you claim to be 'friends' with guys like Ernieleafs, despite the fact he adamantly denies this, claiming friendly banter, when really it's just a chance for you to belittle others opinions.
You remind too much of so many that irritate the hell out of me in my own family
On the Barkov vs whatever debate, the reality is that if all pans out for these prospects, he fits the bill for our needs more then anyone in this draft. Big, strong, 2way playmaking center with a high offensive upside. That's all it is with him, that fans see a serious hole being filled with him. Nichuskin could do it to, but according to scouts, a little less likely. It's the same reason I brought up Gauthier a few days ago. Someone who fits the bill, to a tee, a little higher up the draft. I think if we get Luongo, we're likely looking at a 12-20 pick. I'd like it if we took a flyer on Frederick Gauthier. On paper he looks like a perfect fit. BIG, offensive player. According to ISS Hockey, he is a 2way power forward:
From their twitter feed. He's trending upward. They had him at 26, then 22, been as high as ~15 on mynhldraft.com.
Anti fanboy? I like Nichushkin so much, I have him ahead of Monahan right now. Am I anti Monahan too? LOL Sorry to keep breaking down the myths here. Ernie certainly knows my feelings on Monahan. Button has Valeri at #5, 2 spots lower than Barkov. My opinion can't be that far off and he is rising on other lists.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
The Magic Man
With God given hands
And who has been pumping Nichuskins tires around here? Only you. I like him if we're at ~7 or higher. So do others. But this isn't about him. It's about the amount of attention that Barkov has received, that Galy and Grig and Forsberg received. That's why I say your anti-fanboy or contrarian.
The Magic Man
With God given hands
and again it's comments like this that are only put out there to insight arguments. It's getting old though.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
- 71,030
- 21,383
Nope it's comments, that infer I am anti Russian that I am forced to defend myself on. Despite me liking this prospect, even over Monahan a player I like a lot. This is what is getting old.
- Status
