12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

[The Magic Man]

Yea, I would say that you make the trade and not even bother trying to deal with the semantics of trading after the pick.

Also, you hold out for as much as possible or you make it seem like you take Jones. I think that you will drive up the price for teams that need a franchise dman.

Just make the selection that best helps your club. If you think Barkov is a legit 1C, then take him. What is so important that you need to move back one spot. Your gonna get, at best, a 2nd. Whoopity doo.

If you see at as Jones as the clear BPA, then take him.

You start trading back you end up with Josh Bailey. f that.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Just make the selection that best helps your club. If you think Barkov is a legit 1C, then take him. What is so important that you need to move back one spot. Your gonna get, at best, a 2nd. Whoopity doo.

If you see at as Jones as the clear BPA, then take him.

You start trading back you end up with Josh Bailey. f that.

This. No point in risking a potential #1 C for a potential 3rd liner/bottom pairing D

 

[showtime8]

Just make the selection that best helps your club. If you think Barkov is a legit 1C, then take him. What is so important that you need to move back one spot. Your gonna get, at best, a 2nd. Whoopity doo.

If you see at as Jones as the clear BPA, then take him.

You start trading back you end up with Josh Bailey. f that.

I think that its all dependent on what you are getting in return for moving back.

Obviously you are going to take the best player available regardless of where you pick, but if you are getting another prospect or another draft pick that is worth while, then you have to think very strongly about the deal.

I do think the 1st round pick, companied with the 2nd round pick gives you a better chance of hitting on a player.

 

[Epictetus]

If the Leafs have the 2nd overall pick and Mackinnon is selected first overall, then the Leafs will take Seth Jones. Any further discussion is laughable, including suggestions that the Leafs should trade the pick in an attempt to fill a hole at center.

This shouldn't even be debatable, really.

 

[showtime8]

If the Leafs have the 2nd overall pick and Mackinnon is selected first overall, then the Leafs will take Seth Jones. Any further discussion is laughable, including suggestions that the Leafs should trade the pick in an attempt to fill a hole at center.

This shouldn't even be debatable, really.

Why don't you even consider trading the pick?

 

[Bomber0104]

If the Leafs have the 2nd overall pick and Mackinnon is selected first overall, then the Leafs will take Seth Jones. Any further discussion is laughable, including suggestions that the Leafs should trade the pick in an attempt to fill a hole at center.

This shouldn't even be debatable, really.

THe chances the Leafs end up with the 2nd overall pick are very remote from what I understand.

 

[LV*]

If the Leafs have the 2nd overall pick and Mackinnon is selected first overall, then the Leafs will take Seth Jones. Any further discussion is laughable, including suggestions that the Leafs should trade the pick in an attempt to fill a hole at center.

This shouldn't even be debatable, really.

That's laughable.

 

[Epictetus]

Why don't you even consider trading the pick?

Why would you trade your chance at having what many consider to be the closest thing to a lock as a top-pairing d-man?

This is a franchise cornerstone player, who's only knock is that he relies on his intelligence and high-IQ rather than at times using his physicality and size. And quite contrary to popular myth, it is possible to have this kind of franchise player at a position other than center.

The problem with Leaf fans (not saying you) is that they over-value their assets. It just recently happened with their goaltending, and has happened before when the Leafs had Rask and Pogge. You already see glimpses of this happening with Reilly and Gardiner.

Why the Leafs cannot have something truly elite (i.e., a top-4 core of Jones, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Reilly) for the long-term is just astonishing.

THe chances the Leafs end up with the 2nd overall pick are very remote from what I understand.

It is, and to be honest, based on some of these responses I am kind of glad it is 'remote'. I wouldn't be surprised to see Jones get booed for being taken 2nd overall or not traded for a potential first-line center, but more likely second-line center.

That's laughable.

The fact you would trade Seth Jones, the BPA, for an apparent hole at the center position just goes to show the short-minded thinking at work here.

 

[showtime8]

Why would you trade your chance at having what many consider to be the closest thing to a lock as a top-pairing d-man?

This is a franchise cornerstone player, who's only knock is that he relies on his intelligence and high-IQ rather than at times using his physicality and size. And quite contrary to popular myth, it is possible to have this kind of franchise player at a position other than center.

The problem with Leaf fans (not saying you) is that they over-value their assets. It just recently happened with their goaltending, and has happened before when the Leafs had Rask and Pogge. You already see glimpses of this happening with Reilly and Gardiner.

Why the Leafs cannot have something truly elite (i.e., a top-4 core of Jones, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Reilly) for the long-term is just astonishing.



It is, and to be honest, based on some of these responses I am kind of glad it is 'remote'. I wouldn't be surprised to see Jones get booed for being taken 2nd overall or not traded for a potential first-line center, but more likely second-line center.



The fact you would trade Seth Jones, the BPA, for an apparent hole at the center position just goes to show the short-minded thinking at work here.

The thing about defensemen is that you never know what you're going to get at the top of the draft. The big debate in 2009 was, who would you rather have... John Tavares or Viktor Hedman? Well its clear now about who the majority would have, but at the time its the same debate as what we're having now.

Defensemen don't develop as fast as forwards, so as a Leaf fan I would hope that you draft a top forward regardless of how good you think that Jones will be.

 

[leugangen]

The thing about defensemen is that you never know what you're going to get at the top of the draft. The big debate in 2009 was, who would you rather have... John Tavares or Viktor Hedman? Well its clear now about who the majority would have, but at the time its the same debate as what we're having now.

Defensemen don't develop as fast as forwards, so as a Leaf fan I would hope that you draft a top forward regardless of how good you think that Jones will be.

Tavares = MacKinnon
Hedman = Jones

But this argument is more about Jones and Barkov right? Then the argument should be Hedman or Duchene which is way tougher. I think an issue is that Hedman doesn't get enough praise. He is an absolute defensive stud.

All that said, there are benefits to taking Jones or Barkov. I'd be gleaming with taking either/or if we have the #2 pick. I'd rather have the #1 pick and take MacKinnon, but a Jones-Rielly pairing for the next decade would probably stack up as one of the best in the league.

Taking Jones would also allow to us to consider trading Gardiner for a #1C if necessary.

 

[7even]

If the Leafs have the 2nd overall pick and Mackinnon is selected first overall, then the Leafs will take Seth Jones. Any further discussion is laughable, including suggestions that the Leafs should trade the pick in an attempt to fill a hole at center.

This shouldn't even be debatable, really.

And so it has been ordained.

THe chances the Leafs end up with the 2nd overall pick are very remote from what I understand.

'bout 6.25%.

 

[New Liskeard]

If were at #2, I look at moving down a spot, getting another asset, and taking a C. We need an elite C like nothing else.

I'm amazed to see this quote as often as I do. The Leafs need goaltending more than anything else by a huge margin. I guess the Leafs need a number one center to improve their scoring, and help Kessel? Draft BPA, when it comes up.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Barkov and Jones are about equal. How do you not take the #1 center, when you have a solid D-core already, is beyond me.

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Barkov and Jones are about equal. How do you not take the #1 center, when you have a solid D-core already, is beyond me.

Well there is still a season left, we will see soon enough who is the better of the two or possibly 3. However best player available is always the best way to go at any draft, I always doughty of the L.A. Kings as an example for it.

 

[Epictetus]

Well there is still a season left, we will see soon enough who is the better of the two or possibly 3. However best player available is always the best way to go at any draft, I always doughty of the L.A. Kings as an example for it.

This, except Jones is the BPA regardless of how the season unfolds.

I really am beginning to question if people actually know what the term "BPA" really means.

Barkov and Jones are about equal. How do you not take the #1 center, when you have a solid D-core already, is beyond me.

The fact that you think Barkov and Jones are about equal is just...

The Leafs need to be asking themselves: who has the better chance of reaching their top-end potential? And the answer is Seth Jones. 10 out of 10 times. At the very worst, you are getting a top 4 d-man for the next ten years. Do not let the failures of Luke Schenn scare you.

The thing about defensemen is that you never know what you're going to get at the top of the draft. The big debate in 2009 was, who would you rather have... John Tavares or Viktor Hedman? Well its clear now about who the majority would have, but at the time its the same debate as what we're having now.

Defensemen don't develop as fast as forwards, so as a Leaf fan I would hope that you draft a top forward regardless of how good you think that Jones will be.

I'm confused. Do you think Barkov will be the next John Tavares? If you think he's John Tavares, then who does Nathan Mackinnon project to be? I don't think this is a fair comparison. And for the record, Hedman holds tremendous value. Just ask the Tampa Bay fans on this board.

From my understanding, the knocks on Jones are:

1) He's a d-man, while the Leafs need forwards (particularly a center).
2) D-man take longer to develop.
3) The Leafs already have a 'solid' d-core.

All of these are extremely challengable.

I have yet to see anything that is a severe knock to his game, or at the very least, someone challenging his high-end potential.

Take the BPA, which is Jones (if you have the #2 pick). Build up your defensive-core, and if you really find it is a strength, then a d-man can be moved for a number #1 center or a prospect with that upside. I fail to see how this is not a viable strategy, where value can best be maximized.

 

[Sundinisagod]

This, except Jones is the BPA regardless of how the season unfolds.

I really am beginning to question if people actually know what the term "BPA" really means.



The fact that you think Barkov and Jones are about equal is just...

Can I ask how you know with such certainty that Jones is clearly superior? Is it based on your extensive viewing of both players or from reading reports? Thanks.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Got this list from a smart scout of his christmas rankings. Horvat a big mover, also I was surprised he had Bailey, a guy I liked prior to the start of the season in the top 18. Great minds think alike.

1 Nathan MacKinnon
2 Seth Jones
3 Aleksander Barkov - big horse
4 Jonathon Drouin - not gritty but so slick
5 Sean Monahan
6 Bo Horvat - big riser
7 Max Domi
8 Elias Lindholm - great feet, looks good, but takes periods off
9 Ryan Pulock
10 Rasmus Ristolainen
11 Hunter Shinkaruk
12 Anthony Mantha
13 Darnell Nurse
14 Josh Morrissey
15 Kerby Rychel
16 Robert Hagg
17 Curtis Lazar
18 Justin Bailey - could become a dominant fwd(I agree with scout's comment)
19 Nikita Zadorov - Big mean horse, like him too.
20 Madison Bowey

 

[Rare Jewel]

Got this list from a smart scout of his christmas rankings. Horvat a big mover, also I was surprised he had Bailey, a guy I liked prior to the start of the season in the top 18. Great minds think alike.

1 Nathan MacKinnon
2 Seth Jones
3 Aleksander Barkov - big horse
4 Jonathon Drouin - not gritty but so slick
5 Sean Monahan
6 Bo Horvat - big riser
7 Max Domi
8 Elias Lindholm - great feet, looks good, but takes periods off
9 Ryan Pulock
10 Rasmus Ristolainen
11 Hunter Shinkaruk
12 Anthony Mantha
13 Darnell Nurse
14 Josh Morrissey
15 Kerby Rychel
16 Robert Hagg
17 Curtis Lazar
18 Justin Bailey - could become a dominant fwd(I agree with scout's comment)
19 Nikita Zadorov - Big mean horse, like him too.
20 Madison Bowey

Deary me.

Do the Hunters have you on the payroll?

 

[Leaf Rocket]

Wow horvat lol.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Deary me.

Do the Hunters have you on the payroll?

I know, we are all arm chair quarterbacks that watch more games from our computers or read boxscores than scouts that make a living watching hundreds of games a year.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Wow horvat lol.

I know wow Drouin at #4?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Personally I think Drouin is a little high at #4, a slick winger with offensive talents is not as valuable as a good top defensive prospect or a Center with more to his game than compiling points. Saying that it's obvious Drouin has immense skills, one dimensional as they are, but good skills indeed. I just question are they more valuable than what a Monahan can bring to the table.

If only highlight reel goals counted towards winning championships, reality is garbage goals count just as much.

 

[Rare Jewel]

I know, we are all arm chair quarterbacks that watch more games from our computers or read boxscores than scouts that make a living watching hundreds of games a year.

They may watch a lot of games it doesn't stop them from making wrong or bad picks. Conversely you have a team like Buffalo who depends a lot on video scouting and do well.

There's no perfect formula for scouting.



Also don't post a draft rankings list if you don't want it criticized.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

They may watch a lot of games it doesn't stop them from making wrong or bad picks. Conversely you have a team like Buffalo who depends a lot on video scouting and do well.

There's no perfect formula for scouting.



Also don't post a draft rankings list if you don't want it criticized.

That's fair enough, I'm actually all for discussion. As even I have pointed out I think Drouin is a tad high, but he and Barkov seem to the the flavours of the month right now. I think there is a difference in laughing at Horvat and being critical of it, but that's the norm around here. BTW this list did not come from Button, I for one love reading contrarian choices rather than the standard safe lists, scouting is subjective, no definitive right or wrong until years later.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Got this list from a smart scout of his christmas rankings. Horvat a big mover, also I was surprised he had Bailey, a guy I liked prior to the start of the season in the top 18. Great minds think alike.

1 Nathan MacKinnon
2 Seth Jones
3 Aleksander Barkov - big horse
4 Jonathon Drouin - not gritty but so slick
5 Sean Monahan
6 Bo Horvat - big riser
7 Max Domi
8 Elias Lindholm - great feet, looks good, but takes periods off
9 Ryan Pulock
10 Rasmus Ristolainen
11 Hunter Shinkaruk
12 Anthony Mantha
13 Darnell Nurse
14 Josh Morrissey
15 Kerby Rychel
16 Robert Hagg
17 Curtis Lazar
18 Justin Bailey - could become a dominant fwd(I agree with scout's comment)
19 Nikita Zadorov - Big mean horse, like him too.
20 Madison Bowey

No Nichushkin. Are you still high on him?