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12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

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Leaf Rocket said:
tavares had the same issues, he's doing just fine.
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Tavares is fine skating wise, plus he is much ahead of Barkov, and I will include Monahan too in hockey sense and as an offensive talent. This is a bad comparison.

Again Ernie pointed fault to Monahan's skating, why not Barkov, or is this defend all but Canadian players thread?

Given my druthers Jones is the clear #1 on my list with only Mac possible moving past him.
 
Interactif said:
Tavares is fine skating wise, plus he is much ahead of Barkov, and I will include Monahan too in hockey sense and as an offensive talent. This is a bad comaprison.
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Tavares was not a good skater when he came into the league though. I watched him in the WJC and that was the difference I noticed between he and Stamkos. I thought Stamkos looked like an effortless skater, while Tavares lugged his frame around.
 
Interactif said:
Tavares is fine skating wise, plus he is much ahead of Barkov, and I will include Monahan too in hockey sense and as an offensive talent. This is a bad comparison.

Again Ernie pointed fault to Monahan's skating, why not Barkov, or is this defend all but Canadian players thread?

Given my druthers Jones is the clear #1 on my list with only Mac possible moving past him.
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Nope, you're ignoring the facts again. I've said time and again that Barkov's skating was to this point, his problem. He doesn't have a fluid stride, and lacks an explosive first few steps. If you actually take the time to watch Sasha play, you'll notice that it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, for whatever agenda driven reason you are.

Tavares was an unbelievable prospect, but nobody is about to say he didn't come into the league with skating concerns. Watching him now should tell you all you need to know about the development of one's skating. It's not something that cannot be improved and refined, and given that Barkov knows this (just look at the difference of last year to this year, in terms of his improvement), you can bet it's at the top of his list of improvement. He went as far as to state in an interview, that the basis for the Finnish hockey style centers around skating, and he needed to improve. I would say that's enough for me to relax and not worry about it for now, afterall, he's only 17.

The same goes for Monahan. He has talent, IQ, and a solid two-way game, and thankfully, his issues are with skating as well, something that he'll be able to remedy with some extra work in practice and the off-season. These guys have access to some of the best coaching in the world, and to think that they won't improve is silly.

After the post on the last page, are you still willing to call him a perimeter player? Still going to say he doesn't play in the corners? Being an elite distributer, and a guy who creates massive amounts of space with his size and puck handling, are you still going to flat-out deny that he's the kind of player Kessel needs in the middle?

I will be baffled, if so. It's all there, and there's no being blind to it now..
 
ULF_55 said:
Tavares was not a good skater when he came into the league though. I watched him in the WJC and that was the difference I noticed between he and Stamkos. I thought Stamkos looked like an effortless skater, while Tavares lugged his frame around.
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He's not as bad as you guys are making him sound, and comparing to one of the best skaters in the NHL is not really a point worth making. 99% of NHL players are a worst skater than Stamkos. Tavares plays more as a Sakic than a Sundin. Remember Sakic couldn't skate either.
 
ULF_55 said:
Tavares was not a good skater when he came into the league though. I watched him in the WJC and that was the difference I noticed between he and Stamkos. I thought Stamkos looked like an effortless skater, while Tavares lugged his frame around.
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Indeed, and now tavares is miles ahead of what he used to b.
 
ErnieLeafs said:
Nope, you're ignoring the facts again. I've said time and again that Barkov's skating was to this point, his problem. He doesn't have a fluid stride, and lacks an explosive first few steps. If you actually take the time to watch Sasha play, you'll notice that it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, for whatever agenda driven reason you are.

Tavares was an unbelievable prospect, but nobody is about to say he didn't come into the league with skating concerns. Watching him now should tell you all you need to know about the development of one's skating. It's not something that cannot be improved and refined, and given that Barkov knows this (just look at the difference of last year to this year, in terms of his improvement), you can bet it's at the top of his list of improvement. He went as far as to state in an interview, that the basis for the Finnish hockey style centers around skating, and he needed to improve. I would say that's enough for me to relax and not worry about it for now, afterall, he's only 17.

The same goes for Monahan. He has talent, IQ, and a solid two-way game, and thankfully, his issues are with skating as well, something that he'll be able to remedy with some extra work in practice and the off-season. These guys have access to some of the best coaching in the world, and to think that they won't improve is silly.

After the post on the last page, are you still willing to call him a perimeter player? Still going to say he doesn't play in the corners? Being an elite distributer, and a guy who creates massive amounts of space with his size and puck handling, are you still going to flat-out deny that he's the kind of player Kessel needs in the middle?

I will be baffled, if so. It's all there, and there's no being blind to it now..
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Why are you so hung up on convincing me to pick Barkov over Monahan, others agree with me too, surely it isn't an outrageous proposition.
 
TheFinnishKulemin said:
It's a good way to totally get the wrong idea on a prospect. One poster made a very good point about it (epictus I believe was the poster). It's a place where top prospects generally don't fall or rise as they have already solidified their status as top 5 picks, but some other guys can really improve there position (like Drouin/Dano this year).

This entire WJC wasn't exactly stellar for the 2013 draft class. Which isn't really surprising. We've all been told this is a 19 year olds tourney countless times. It's almost a little much we expect 17/18 year olds to dominant. I've been critical of Jones but really are a few games going to have me drop him from the top 3? Not a chance. It's such a small sample size it doesn't make any sense. Not to mention he's still very young.

We've already heard a GM (our own) admit that he completely ignored the WJC when drafting the Sedins, after he came away less than impressed with them at the tourney prior to their draft season.
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Agreed. WJC have to be taken with a grain of salt. One needs more viewings than the WJC to get a viable feel for a prospect.
 
Interactif said:
Why are you so hung up on convincing me to pick Barkov over Monahan, others agree with me too, surely it isn't an outrageous proposition.
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Oh, you've got me all wrong. I don't care that you like Monahan over Barkov, we all know your M.O.

I'm simply dispelling the garbage that you've invented about a kid that doesn't deserve the smear campaign. Some people don't actually see for themselves, and it would be a shame for a passer-by to form an opinion of a kid based on some of the sensationalism you come up with.

Here, since you're such a big fan..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xeoT_cBQyM

Nobody watching this next one can really say his skating is THAT bad. Certainly not where it needs to be, but not hindering him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcNh_Q_HrY8
 
TheNorthFace said:
Agreed. WJC have to be taken with a grain of salt. One needs more viewings than the WJC to get a viable feel for a prospect.
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One amendment.

If you are a highly rated prospect going into the tourment and you perform well, it carries weight.

Not as much if you are a less touted prospect.

Ie. Jones, Drouin.
 
I also think what makes/made Tavares and Barkov successful, despite issues with skating, is that they both have a knack for being in the right place at the right time.

Much like a defender like Finn. If you are always in the right position, or know where to be off the puck, things will fall into place. This was something Tavares was lethal for. You wouldn't notice the guy, because he never jumped off the page at you on the rush, but all of a sudden, BANG! he's got 3 points, and you're going home disappointed.

It was hard when he was in London, though we did a number on them.
 
ErnieLeafs said:
I also think what makes/made Tavares and Barkov successful, despite issues with skating, is that they both have a knack for being in the right place at the right time.

Much like a defender like Finn. If you are always in the right position, or know where to be off the puck, things will fall into place. This was something Tavares was lethal for. You wouldn't notice the guy, because he never jumped off the page at you on the rush, but all of a sudden, BANG! he's got 3 points, and you're going home disappointed.

It was hard when he was in London, though we did a number on them.
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thats the thing i lvoed about barkov watching his games...he was there always somehow someway to be involved in the play.
 
ErnieLeafs said:
Oh, you've got me all wrong. I don't care that you like Monahan over Barkov, we all know your M.O.

I'm simply dispelling the garbage that you've invented about a kid that doesn't deserve the smear campaign. Some people don't actually see for themselves, and it would be a shame for a passer-by to form an opinion of a kid based on some of the sensationalism you come up with.

Here, since you're such a big fan..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xeoT_cBQyM

Nobody watching this next one can really say his skating is THAT bad. Certainly not where it needs to be, but not hindering him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcNh_Q_HrY8
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I'm typing on my phone and you are trying way too hard trying to convince everyone on Barkov, still I love how you ignored that USA hockey was heavily scouted post Lake Placid gold, but given you were not even born to witness it, I will forgive your oversight.
 
Interactif said:
I'm typing on my phone and you are trying way too hard trying to convince everyone on Barkov, still I love how you ignored that USA hockey was heavily scouted post Lake Placid gold, but given you were not even born to witness it, I will forgive your oversight.
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Age has little to do with wisdom, as proven time and again. Call me when you've got your Masters in the field of HISTORY, and have spent the Lion share of 23 years actually playing and being INVOLVED in hockey, not just a spectator.... lol

When you're comepletely out of your depth on something, and have been proven wrong, you go back to something that has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and something that I was hardly involved in (outside of pointing out that you were once again wrong, calling a high school program an NCAA institution).

Okay.

Moving forward, I think the guy I like the most outisde of the top-10 right now is Adam Erne, of the Quebec Remparts. I may not get a chance to see him live, as I don't know if I'll have the money to go see my uncle in QC, but I'm going to try to see a Remparts/Mooseheads game before the playoffs.

I was watching some highlights of him, and really started liking his game. A good blend of skill and grit.

Here's a vid of a clean, open ice hit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlyggKl8sKk

A little highlight package:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYia_G-XDy4

A skilled, young, American forward, who has grit and a good set of hands. Good touch around the net, and seems to be in the right places.

Someone to keep an eye on.
 
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ErnieLeafs said:
Our favourite feature of any draft thread (a definite hit last year, as I recall), It's time for a mid-season edition of Prospect Myth Busters!!

Last year, we went ahead and dispelled the nonsense foolishly made up by one of our resident posters on young American pivot, Alex Galchenyuk.

Let's take a look at this year's foreign target, Aleksander "Sasha" Barkov:

Interactif:
"he's also a perimeter player from my limited viewings"

Well, if by "perimeter", you mean perimeter of the crease....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tdFCl5_tvY

Yeah, he looks a lot like our old #13 out there.

Interactif:
" Barkov may be too slow to adjust playing in the NHL"
"his skating that reminds me of Barkov that prevented him from being an elite NHL fwd"

And then he asked: "Barkov's skating doesn't worry you, but Monahan's does?"

well, I never said Monahan's skating worried me, just that it needs work. Something that scouts agree with for both of them, but then there was this exerpt from The Hockey Writers:

"He has Mario Lemiuex-like speed, in that he looks like a lumbering giant, but is deceptively fast"

So then you were like...

Interactif:
"Good point." In response to a bolded quote about Kessel needing a guy to fish pucks out of corners...

so Goran Stubb, of NHL Central Scouting was all like:
""Barkov is big, strong and a hard worker in all areas of the ice," NHL Central Scouting's Goran Stubb told NHL.com.

And just for some other points of interest, let's look at some attitude and character notes, as we KNOW just how important these are, right?

"My parents' meaning to me is very great," Barkov said. "They both taught me to skate and spent time with me and they drove me to team practices."

Doesn't sound too much different than how most of us grew up playing the game, or how those CHL kids started...

“[Barkov] acknowledged that his defensive game needed to be better – saying he’s working on it every game and every practiceâ€

A smart, honest kid. Hardworking, and committed to improving his game

“I try not to concentrate on external factors during my games. What I aim for is to play my best game, and give everything that I got in favour of my team.â€

“For me, every goal I score is important because hopefully it could help my team to win.â€

A focused, team-first centerman. A kid who puts the good of the team before his personal accolades.

Goran Stubb then describes a 3-zone weapon:

"He's a sniper who can also set up scoring chances for teammates. I like the fact that he's a two-way center with a good understanding of his defensive duties."

Doesn't disappear in big games:

“It seems as if all the attention may have made him even stronger. In his final tuneup against the United States on Saturday, Barkov struck for a goal and two assists in a 5-1 win.â€

“In fact, Barkov, who was one of only four 1995-born players participating at the 2012 WJC, became the youngest Finnish player to score a goal at the Under-20 tournament. At 16 years and four months, the 6-foot-2, 209-pound center made history when he connected for the decisive goal in an 8-5 victory against Slovakia in the tournament's quarterfinal round.â€

A workhorse at 16/17:

“As we’ve seen, he’s fourth in the league in goals, and he’s averaging more than three shots per game, too. He has also emerged as a top option for Tappara (“Battle Axeâ€), playing more than 20 minutes per night regularly over the last stretch of games.â€

"He keeps his head calm in every situation and can be used in shorthanded situations too. "


Has had his share of big moments that impacted his team:

"Barkov has started the 2012/13 season on fire scoring seven goals and five assists in eight games."

“Aleksander Barkov leads Tappara with 14 goals and sits among the top ten scorers in the Finnish SM-liiga – and padded a whirlwind month by taking home MVP honours at the U-20 4-Nations Tournament last month in Sundsvall, Sweden (3-0-3-3).â€

And lastly, here are just a few snippets of what the experts have to say about this fine young man:

"Very untypical for Finnish prospects, Barkov is big and strong and uses his size very well"

From Edmonton's head of Amateur Scouting:

“[Barkov] was very good. A big, strong, centerman that is very smart with the puck and strong with the puck and works hard at both ends of the ice.â€

“He’s 6’2†at least, maybe a little more and very close to 200 pounds as a 17-year old. He skates well, very good first step, gets off the mark well. Passes the puck very well, good hands, controls the puck using his puck skills and his body to protect. More of a setup guy than a shooter but he does possess a very good shot.â€

Why do we need a hometown kid? We have a budding star who LOVES playing in the spotlight, and thrives on the challenge:

“It seems as if all the attention may have made him even stronger."

OH! And those player comparisons......:

“He has Mario Lemiuex-like speed"

From Barkov:

“I follow (Evgeni) Malkin and (Pavel) Datsyuk because they are amazingly skillful players, and can dominate in every situation.â€

"His style has been compared a lot to Pavel Datsyuk. "

And before we close, let's leave off with some buzzwords and phrases for you to use:

"He has also emerged as a top option"

"Barkov is big, strong and a hard worker in all areas of the ice"

"He's a sniper"

"he's a two-way center"

"A big, strong, centerman " "is very smart with the puck" "strong with the puck "

"but is deceptively fast, to go with tremendous hands" " a high compete level"

“Barkov is mature beyond his years on the ice, and plays with the confidence and swagger of a savvy veteran. He is a hyprid of pure ability, skill, power and strength, and simply can create something out of nothing in an instant.â€


And finally, for some fun videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZDaxZHxoM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYiSFRj5yiQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmz-nxuYaqo

So there's your perimeter player.

Proof is in the pudding, right?

And if people cared to watch, You can catch Tappara games on firstrowsports.
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Interactif is so set in his way against Barkov, I doubt anything will change his mind. Barkov being taken by Burke probably wouldn't even change it. And don't expect a response from him on this post. I had a very similar post showing that virtually every scout, scouting service and their respective mother thought he was better than Monohan in every way and he didn't even bother mentioning it. Somehow he has it in his head that a two-way center similar to Koivu that has better offensive upside and has been stated by scouts to possibly be the most rounded player in the entire draft is a bad thing.

But fantastic post. Loved every bit of it. Especially the Edmonton head amateur scout part.

As an aside, the quote about him needing to work on his defensive game actually came from him last season as a 16 year old. And now he's considered one of the better two-way players in the draft? Dude's got work ethic and desire to improve like crazy.
 
TheFinnishKulemin said:
Interactif is so set in his way against Barkov, I doubt anything will change his mind. Barkov being taken by Burke probably wouldn't even change it. And don't expect a response from him on this post. I had a very similar post showing that virtually every scout, scouting service and their respective mother thought he was better than Monohan in every way and he didn't even bother mentioning it. Somehow he has it in his head that a two-way center similar to Koivu that has better offensive upside and has been stated by scouts to possibly be the most rounded player in the entire draft is a bad thing.

But fantastic post. Loved every bit of it. Especially the Edmonton head amateur scout part.

As an aside, the quote about him needing to work on his defensive game actually came from him last season as a 16 year old. And now he's considered one of the better two-way players in the draft? Dude's got work ethic and desire to improve like crazy.
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Thanks.

In truth, this franchise and it's fanbase could be considered blessed to get ANY of the top-5 in this draft, regardless of position. All have the potential to make a significant impact on the future of this franchise. Barkov is my kind of player, and a player that I think fits what we've been missingsince Sundin.

He's my hopeful pick, that's all.
 
Interactif said:
Rielly was a dissapoitment?

Looked good to me given his role given by Spott, perhaps you mixed him up with #24 or An Ontario city named after a player
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Come on you can't just make excuses for players you like.

What I saw of Jones was an offensive player with size, but mentally not sharp defensively.
 
ULF_55 said:
Come on you can't just make excuses for players you like.

What I saw of Jones was an offensive player with size, but mentally not sharp defensively.
Click to expand...

Sample size of the WJHC is too small. Especially when your team finishes 4th and completely underachieves.
 
Interactif said:
He's not as bad as you guys are making him sound, and comparing to one of the best skaters in the NHL is not really a point worth making. 99% of NHL players are a worst skater than Stamkos. Tavares plays more as a Sakic than a Sundin. Remember Sakic couldn't skate either.
Click to expand...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=640469

"Skating may have been his only weakness during his junior career, but it was an obvious one.

"John had a very awkward, clunky, some might have said slow stride," Dawn Braid, a renowned skating instructor out of the greater Toronto area who has worked with Tavares since 2008, told NHL.com. "He was very off-balanced."

Tavares was what is commonly referred to as railroader -- someone who looks like they're skating with legs as far apart as railroad tracks, burdening themselves with short strides that require too much energy to get from point A to point B. Tavares knew that in order to be a great pro he would have to improve his skating in all aspects."

http://thehockeywriters.com/overtime/the-evolution-of-john-tavares/

"The player that was bumped off of the puck and criticized for his sub-par skating during his first two seasons with New York was nowhere to be found. Instead, Tavares’ opponents, fans, and scouts were playing against a stronger and more complete center, one that had refined his skating and increased his strength. "

"Tavares’ skating was much improved in his final season in the OHL, but there were many times where the young forward’s hockey sense and soft hands made up for his skating and lack of muscle."

http://blogs.bettor.com/New-York-Is...to-become-top-level-Skater-NHL-Update-a182966

Entering the league, the 21-year-old certainly was well known of struggling to achieve a perfect form of skating on the ice, which obviously than hindered his full potential. No one better than Dawn Braid, Tavares training instructor since 2008, knew how bad his form was, but overtime, the young player has been working hard to improve it.

"John had a very awkward, clunky, some might have said slow stride," Dawn Braid told NHL.com. "He was very off-balanced."

Tavares skating was his one weakness and yeah it was pretty bad. In fact many scouts were actually starting to question if he could be an effective player at the NHL level because of it. And he learned. And he had worse skating than barkov does now before he entered the league.
 
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