12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't know what Burke is thinking, but coming from Canada's performance, I'm not putting much weight in scouting the WJC Canada team as much as usual. I think Spott did a terrible job.

Jones was used as a 1D, NM was used as a 4C.

I wouldn't put too much faith in saying a Gaudreau type of player is a slam dunk, but players that are supposed to be good that do play good, usually have the questions about them silenced. And Jones came into the tourney hyped, he didn't disappoint.

 

[King Mapes]

I don't know what Burke is thinking, but coming from Canada's performance, I'm not putting much weight in scouting the WJC Canada team as much as usual. I think Spott did a terrible job.

Jones was used as a 1D, NM was used as a 4C.

yup. I felt he was terrible even after our 4-0 start. Questionable decisions. Completely misused our whole d corps. Nate had no icetime. Just terrible.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

As badly as I want a top line young star at forward, having Jones on our d-core would just be epic and I wouldnt complain...

Edmonton has Nuge, Hall, Eberle, Yakupov .. We'll counter with Jones, Rielly, Gardiner, etc..

I think we would win that match up. Add Dion, we are going to need his vet experience with such a young D.

 

[7even]

I'm lost that you are lost, since you brought up 83. You probably don't know Erik Johnson was a college player when drafted, why do you think I brought up Lawton? College player right? Mapes was making a Johnson reference and I said you can't compare them since Jones is not playing in College this year, he's playing in the WHL, far better league with a better track record. Get it now? Year has no bearing, college developed perhaps. Wheeler, Murphy, Turris. act...

Wha... I didn't bring up 83, you did, when you brought up Brian Lawton, who has absolutely nothing to do with anything because he was drafted 30 years ago from a program that's in a different universe than where it is now. And you can't parade around that Seth Jones isn't comparable to Erik Johnson solely because of their junior leagues. 30 games in the WHL does not a top prospect make. That's completely absurd. Completely. Erik Johnson, regardless of being a college player, was held with just the same amount of regard as Seth Jones is now. Both were (are) considered the best defensive prospects of their respective drafts. There's many arguments you can make here about them being completely different players and incomparable, but pointing out that Johnson played in the same league as Lawton as a reason why isn't one of them.

And you're going to patronize me about asking for clarification when half the time you make about as much sense as an ejector seat on a helicopter? Alright man. Whatever. Time has no relevance on busts and all that.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Wha... I didn't bring up 83, you did, when you brought up Brian Lawton, who has absolutely nothing to do with anything because he was drafted 30 years ago from a program that's in a different universe than where it is now. And you can't parade around that Seth Jones isn't comparable to Erik Johnson solely because of their junior leagues. 30 games in the WHL does not a top prospect make. That's completely absurd. Completely. Erik Johnson, regardless of being a college player, was held with just the same amount of regard as Seth Jones is now. Both were (are) considered the best defensive prospects of their respective drafts. There's many arguments you can make here about them being completely different players and incomparable, but pointing out that Johnson played in the same league as Lawton as a reason why isn't one of them.

And you're going to patronize me about asking for clarification when half the time you make about as much sense as an ejector seat on a helicopter? Alright man. Whatever. Time has no relevance on busts and all that.

The hype machine is almost EXACTLY the same as it was with Johnson, as it is with Seth Jones. They were/are being hyped as potential franchise defenders, and lauded for their size and skill.

And it's not like Jones played a flawless tournament, and didn't have questions. He turned the puck over quite a bit, at times was completely lost in front of his net (which resulted in two important goals vs Russia and Canada)....

Jones is a GREAT young defensive prospect. He has the elite tools to be a #1 guy, but to fluff this guy to this extent, at this point, is meaningless. He's played 30 games in the CHL. 30 games. Let's keep it in perspective.

Erik Johnson is exactly the reason you don't go claiming that someone will be a star, and will be a franchise guy. It's not that he's terrible, but he certainly didn't become what he was projected to be. The same could happen to Jones, MacK, Barkov, Drouin, Monahan... you get the point.

+1, Sir.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Wha... I didn't bring up 83, you did, when you brought up Brian Lawton, who has absolutely nothing to do with anything because he was drafted 30 years ago from a program that's in a different universe than where it is now. And you can't parade around that Seth Jones isn't comparable to Erik Johnson solely because of their junior leagues. 30 games in the WHL does not a top prospect make. That's completely absurd. Completely. Erik Johnson, regardless of being a college player, was held with just the same amount of regard as Seth Jones is now. Both were (are) considered the best defensive prospects of their respective drafts. There's many arguments you can make here about them being completely different players and incomparable, but pointing out that Johnson played in the same league as Lawton as a reason why isn't one of them.

And you're going to patronize me about asking for clarification when half the time you make about as much sense as an ejector seat on a helicopter? Alright man. Whatever. Time has no relevance on busts and all that.

Look at the 1983 draft and the 2011 and 2012 NHL drafts and see where the players are coming from? I count 3 Americans at first glace, a couple of highschool/college players, a czech and a finn. But the majority of players in the first 2 rds were from the CJHL. Other than Russians who were not draft possible, is it that much different than last year or the year before? You completely ignored the College reference because I suppose you are always looking to poke me when it is obvious what the reference is. College hockey is a much more risky predictor than CJHL prospects are. Whether it is 1983. 1986 or 2006 or 2007. You conveniently also ignored the more recent examples I provided.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The hype machine is almost EXACTLY the same as it was with Johnson, as it is with Seth Jones. They were/are being hyped as potential franchise defenders, and lauded for their size and skill.

And it's not like Jones played a flawless tournament, and didn't have questions. He turned the puck over quite a bit, at times was completely lost in front of his net (which resulted in two important goals vs Russia and Canada)....

Jones is a GREAT young defensive prospect. He has the elite tools to be a #1 guy, but to fluff this guy to this extent, at this point, is meaningless. He's played 30 games in the CHL. 30 games. Let's keep it in perspective.

Erik Johnson is exactly the reason you don't go claiming that someone will be a star, and will be a franchise guy. It's not that he's terrible, but he certainly didn't become what he was projected to be. The same could happen to Jones, MacK, Barkov, Drouin, Monahan... you get the point.

+1, Sir.

And the Barkov hype machine, strangely silent after the WJC.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

And the Barkov hype machine, strangely silent after the WJC.

Haven't changed my tune one bit. He's still right at the top, and has given no reason, given his body of work in his junior performances, or his pro league, to think otherwise.

Oh, and if you're going to go on about nonesense from '83, why don't you get the facts straight.

Give me a little history of the HIGH SCHOOL program Lawton was drafted from; Mount Saint Charles Academy, in Woonsocket, RI., and how that can be extrapolated to display his bust potential.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Haven't changed my tune one bit. He's still right at the top, and has given no reason, given his body of work in his junior performances, or his pro league, to think otherwise.

Oh, and if you're going to go on about nonesense from '83, why don't you get the facts straight.

Give me a little history of the HIGH SCHOOL program Lawton was drafted from; Mount Saint Charles Academy, in Woonsocket, RI., and how that can be extrapolated to display his bust potential.

Didn't you tell me you were 27? You wouldn't have been born to remember Lawton when he was drafted would you, do you recall who was passed over when he was picked. Obcourse you do you looked it up, another American player that is coaching in western NY at the moment.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Didn't you tell me you were 27? You wouldn't have been born to remember Lawton when he was drafted would you, do you recall who was passed over when he was picked. Obcourse you do you looked it up, another American player that is coaching in western NY at the moment.

I'm 28, and that hardly matters, when someone grew up involved and around the game, had family that played the game at high levels, knows someone currently working with an NHL team, whose son works with the local OHL club, and has Mem.Cup rings..... Not sure about you, but where I come from, age doesn't matter. I know kids who are 12 that know more about the game than people who post on here regularly.


You've painted yourself into a corner, and now you're going to come at me personally for pointing it out, on the basis of my age? Most ridiculous thing I've read on this board in a long time.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I'm 28, and that hardly matters, when someone grew up involved and around the game, had family that played the game at high levels, knows someone currently working with an NHL team, whose son works with the local OHL club, and has Mem.Cup rings..... Not sure about you, but where I come from, age doesn't matter. I know kids who are 12 that know more about the game than people who post on here regularly.


You've painted yourself into a corner, and now you're going to come at me personally for pointing it out, on the basis of my age? Most ridiculous thing I've read on this board in a long time.

I was only asking because if you were old enough to remember Lawton as I am, you would know that Mount St. Charles Hockey is a factory for NHL hockey players, compare it to St Mikes of Toronto. They have a renowned Hockey program that certainly was comparable to college hockey for developing prospects. Google them up if you haven't already.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

I was only asking because if you were old enough to remember Lawton as I am, you would know that Mount St. Charles Hockey is a factory for NHL hockey players, compare it to St Mikes of Toronto. They have a renowned Hockey program that certainly was comparable to college hockey for developing prospects. Google them up if you haven't already.

They're a high school hockey program. That's the facts, simply put, whether or not they're a hockey factory, they are not a collegiate institution under the umbrella of the NCAA, right?

And don't try to play it off like you weren't trying to make the suggestion that because I was born in 1984, I wouldn't know well enough, the history of the game before that time. Are you on a bike? because the back-pedal is strong here.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

They're a high school hockey program. That's the facts, simply put, whether or not they're a hockey factory, they are not a collegiate institution under the umbrella of the NCAA, right?

And don't try to play it off like you weren't trying to make the suggestion that because I was born in 1984, I wouldn't know well enough, the history of the game before that time. Are you on a bike? because the back-pedal is strong here.

You weren't around then, you have no idea what Mt Charles is, sorry but you don't. But I bet you have heard of St Mikes, you recall Eric Lindros before he went to the Gens? You might have been about 5 then but I am sure you have heard of St Mikes by then.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

You weren't around then, you have no idea what Mt Charles is, sorry but you don't. But I bet you have heard of St Mikes, you recall Eric Lindros before he went to the Gens? You might have been about 5 then but I am sure you have heard of St Mikes by then.

This is so immature, that I'm not even going to continue to feed this troll job.

I like how you're a mind reader, and know, for sure, what I know or don't about the game of hockey.

Mathieu Schneider? Garth Snow? Bryan Berard?

A couple of those played for the Leafs... do you honestly think I didn't know where they came from? lol

Completely moving on, who does everyone think turns heads, that will be picked after the top-10?

I'm going to go with Adam Erne, Artturi Lehkonen, and Zach Fucale.

 

[Auzzie19]

This is so immature, that I'm not even going to continue to feed this troll job.

I like how you're a mind reader, and know, for sure, what I know or don't about the game of hockey.

Mathieu Schneider? Garth Snow? Bryan Berard?

A couple of those played for the Leafs... do you honestly think I didn't know where they came from? lol

Completely moving on, who does everyone think turns heads, that will be picked after the top-10?

I'm going to go with Adam Erne, Artturi Lehkonen, and Zach Fucale.

I think we should take a look at this De La Rose kid, also I can see Nichushkin dropping out of top 10 if teams fear the "russian factor".

 

[ErnieLeafs]

De La Rose had a pretty good WJC from what I saw of him. Have you seen him much?

He's one of the 1st round guys I haven't seen much of.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

More Questions

About Barkov than Answers, Finnish fans perspective.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1271145&page=27

bit disapointed with his tournament looked tired and did lots of weak plays propably won't affect his draft ranking much but im thinking the tournament drouin & lindholm are having he might drop from top5 but still top10 talent

Barkov might be exhausted but it doesn't change the fact that he looked slow.

As well as faceoff wins he protected the puck well especially along the boards today

good solid game

Expected Barkov to step up, didn't happen... and now I have even bigger doubts about his skating. He looked really slow.

Yeah, like there is no 'post-season' for a 17 year old whose biggest weakness is skating to train skating.

Barkov played a good tournament IMO.. The expectations were just set too high based on his excellent FEL season playing against men.

Mixed bag of opinions. Many mentioned his skating is an issue. Funny, I thought this was Monahan's weakness.

 

[JSn0w93]

This is so immature, that I'm not even going to continue to feed this troll job.

I like how you're a mind reader, and know, for sure, what I know or don't about the game of hockey.

Mathieu Schneider? Garth Snow? Bryan Berard?

A couple of those played for the Leafs... do you honestly think I didn't know where they came from? lol

Completely moving on, who does everyone think turns heads, that will be picked after the top-10?

I'm going to go with Adam Erne, Artturi Lehkonen, and Zach Fucale.

Erne, Lazar, and potentially Pulock who is borderline top 10.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

About Barkov than Answers, Finnish fans perspective.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1271145&page=27













Mixed bag of opinions. Many mentioned his skating is an issue. Funny, I thought that was Monahan's weakness.

explosiveness is a weakness of both of them, yes.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

explosiveness is a weakness of both of them, yes.

Seth Jones is a great skater already. Does Not need a battleship radius to turn, Monahan may not be explosive, but he is more effective skater than Barkov.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Seth Jones is a great skater already. Does Not need a battleship radius to turn, Monahan may not be explosive, but he is more effective skater than Barkov.

I like how you always take a "me vs. you" approach to prospects. It's unfortunate you can't be an adult, and hope for the best for these 17 and 18 year olds. Always have to choose a kid to pick on, and funny enough, it's usually whoever I like. I can't wait to choose a random prospect with a blindfold on next year, and watch one of your board famous smear campaigns take flight.

Monahan doesn't think, nor play a complete game at Barkov's level. To suggest so is ridiculous.

Jones is a defenseman, and a solid skater, sure. Different position. Lots of work to do for him as well.

Solid top-5 this year.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I like how you always take a "me vs. you" approach to prospects. It's unfortunate you can't be an adult, and hope for the best for these 17 and 18 year olds. Always have to choose a kid to pick on, and funny enough, it's usually whoever I like. I can't wait to choose a random prospect with a blindfold on next year, and watch one of your board famous smear campaigns take flight.

Monahan doesn't think, nor play a complete game at Barkov's level. To suggest so is ridiculous.

Jones is a defenseman, and a solid skater, sure. Different position. Lots of work to do for him as well.

Solid top-5 this year.

This wasn't necessary for the response, why do you always drag me into these subplots of your responses?

Anyway, from watching Barkov it is obvious his skating is going to be the 'big if' in the NHL. Since Monahan is a better skater from what I have seen, at least he can make tight turns and can make an effort getting somewhere in a hurry. I am genuinely miffed why you continue to be so bullish on Barkov?

Keeping it to hockey, it wasn't me mods.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

This wasn't necessary for the response, why do you always drag me into these subplots of your responses?

Anyway, from watching Barkov it is obvious his skating is going to be the 'big if' in the NHL. Since Monahan is a better skater from what I have seen, at least he can make tight turns and can make an effort getting somewhere in a hurry. I am genuinely miffed why you continue to be so bullish on Barkov?

Keeping it to hockey, it wasn't me mods.

Sub-plots?
okay. Go ahead and play the "huuuh?", playing stupid game.

I'm not bullish, I'm responding to nonsense. Barkov is and has been a better hockey player than Monahan, and it's not even close. Skating is something that can be fixed with work. In fact, you talk to "scouts", ask your scout buddy about the difference in Sasha's skating from last year to this year. Or ask him about how scouts comapare his awareness, IQ, defensive ability, and poise to that of Pavel Datsyuk. Or about his tremendous character and leadership ability, for such a young kid, playing over his head in terms of his age.

He was dominant as an underager in the Ivan Hlinka tournament, played great in the WJC last year, had a solid (though not dominant) WJC this year, and at times, dominates entire games against men. He's looked at as one of the most NHL-ready players in the draft, with a rare blend of size and skill that doesn't come along every day. He anchors the PK unit, he runs the PP, plays huge minutes against the opposition's best.... Not seeing how what he does makes you drag him through the mud, as he's everything that you like other kids for...

Wouldn't you wonder a little, why someone would have it out for a kid for no apparent reason, other than that he thinks he's too "hyped", yet jumps on the massive hype bandwagon (a mirror image of the hype) for another kid? I find myself asking what low self-esteem, personal issue someone must have, to run an entire year of down-talking a kid, and waving the flag anytime he doesn't dominate.

Last year it was the Russians, this year it's the Finns. The names and flags change, but the song remains the same.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Sub-plots?
okay. Go ahead and play the "huuuh?", playing stupid game.

I'm not bullish, I'm responding to nonsense. Barkov is and has been a better hockey player than Monahan, and it's not even close. Skating is something that can be fixed with work. In fact, you talk to "scouts", ask your scout buddy about the difference in Sasha's skating from last year to this year. Or ask him about how scouts comapare his awareness, IQ, defensive ability, and poise to that of Pavel Datsyuk. Or about his tremendous character and leadership ability, for such a young kid, playing over his head in terms of his age.

He was dominant as an underager in the Ivan Hlinka tournament, played great in the WJC last year, had a solid (though not dominant) WJC this year, and at times, dominates entire games against men. He's looked at as one of the most NHL-ready players in the draft, with a rare blend of size and skill that doesn't come along every day.

Wouldn't you wonder a little, why someone would have it out for a kid for no apparent reason, other than that he thinks he's too "hyped", yet jumps on the massive hype bandwagon (a mirror image of the hype) for another kid? I find myself asking what low self-esteem, personal issue someone must have, to run an entire year of down-talking a kid, and waving the flag anytime he doesn't dominate.

Last year it was the Russians, this year it's the Finns. The names and flags change, but the song remains the same.

I won't pretend to comment on his play in the FEL, but I don't rate it as high as you obviously. The Finns are ok when it comes to hockey but as a hockey power, they are not quite there yet. What I will comment on is for all his hype, unlike Seth Jones or Drouin, he disappointed. I don't see it yet, Elite #1C, I see more in Grigorenko and you know how I feel about him. But I give him cred for at least showing up In games this tourney. The Finnish fans who watch Tappara, say he is surrounded by good vet talent, and this helps him, I listen since I have no desire watching FEL hockey. I am not as sure as you seem to be, on what I don't know unless you are a fan of the Tappara hockey team.

 

[DD03]

Finland in terms of a country are more known for goaltenders and good all around defensemen. Haven't seen too many high end forwards yet.