12'/13' Draft Thread: Offensive flash is a beauty but defensive presence rules.

[ErnieLeafs]

Finland in terms of a country are more known for goaltenders and good all around defensemen. Haven't seen too many high end forwards yet.

Rasmus Ristolainen put in one of the best tournaments of any player at any position.

I like him WAY more than Olli Määta

 

[DD03]

Rasmus Ristolainen put in one of the best tournaments of any player at any position.

I like him WAY more than Olli Määta

That's one player and one tournament. Like I said, they haven't produce very many high end forwards.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

That's one player and one tournament. Like I said, they haven't produce very many high end forwards.

I'm not commenting on Finland as a whole. I won't get sucked into a round-about here.

I was making note of a player who was exceptional, and raised a lot of eyebrows with his play. His all-around game should see him be the second defenseman taken, as he brings a pretty complete skill-set, and thinks the game on a high level.

He could be from Djibouti for all I care.

 

[Oan]

Wow, didn't know some Canadians have so big issues with prospects nationality "There haven't been many elite forwards from Finland, so I doubt this Barkov kid will be any different"

I won't pretend to comment on his play in the FEL, but I don't rate it as high as you obviously. The Finns are ok when it comes to hockey but as a hockey power, they are not quite there yet. What I will comment on is for all his hype, unlike Seth Jones or Drouin, he disappointed. I don't see it yet, Elite #1C, I see more in Grigorenko and you know how I feel about him. But I give him cred for at least showing up In games this tourney. The Finnish fans who watch Tappara, say he is surrounded by good vet talent, and this helps him, I listen since I have no desire watching FEL hockey. I am not as sure as you seem to be, on what I don't know unless you are a fan of the Tappara hockey team.

Seems to me that you are ignoring all the Finnish fans who have something positive to say about him, and listen only to those who have something negative to say about him. Also, you (and most every other forum member too) should just understand that the play in WJC doesn't affect his rankings in the eyes of scouts not one bit, because the sample size is so ridiculously small. Too bad he didn't impress you in the (maybe) 1-2 games you watched him in WJC, he still continues to impress all professional scouts with his play in FEL, although you don't seem to put much value to that either.

 

[theIceWookie]

But Reilly does ooze potential, completely misused in the WJC.

and even still scouts thought he was one of the best plauers on the canadian squad according to elliote friedman. he mentioned rnh and him as the two who actually looked liked they did anything.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

and even still scouts thought he was one of the best plauers on the canadian squad according to elliote friedman. he mentioned rnh and him as the two who actually looked liked they did anything.

Most popular comparsion seems toi be M Koivu with perhaps more offensive upside. Not sure that excites me too much, not for a top 3 pick this draft when the worst is Drouin if you are picking better than 3. Drouin looks like a special player to most. Me included.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Most popular comparsion seems toi be M Koivu with perhaps more offensive upside. Not sure that excites me too much, not for a top 3 pick this draft when the worst is Drouin if you are picking better than 3. Drouin looks like a special player to most. Me included.

For Rielly???

Lol, and when are a fan's player comparisons ever taken with any more than a grain of salt anyways?

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

So lets say hypothetically leafs finish dead last, however lose the draft lottery.

Who do we take vs should take?

we take Seth Jones but should take Elias Lindholm

What say you...

 

[ErnieLeafs]

So lets say hypothetically leafs finish dead last, however lose the draft lottery.

Who do we take vs should take?

we take Seth Jones but should take Elias Lindholm

What say you...

I don't get it... What position are we picking? 1? 30? 5?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

For Rielly???

Lol, and when are a fan's player comparisons ever taken with any more than a grain of salt anyways?

Finland is a contender for the gold I recall, said by you when you overreacted to a couple of meaningless pre tourney games.. I recall taking that statement with a grain of salt.

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

I don't get it... What position are we picking? 1? 30? 5?

This would mean selecting #2 overall.

 

[Guy Boucher]

Craig Button released his new scouting list:

He states Seth Jones is firmly in first place with the rest jockeying for the second spot. Barkov in the 3rd spot and Drouin in 4th.

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

 

[theIceWookie]

The hype machine is almost EXACTLY the same as it was with Johnson, as it is with Seth Jones. They were/are being hyped as potential franchise defenders, and lauded for their size and skill.

And it's not like Jones played a flawless tournament, and didn't have questions. He turned the puck over quite a bit, at times was completely lost in front of his net (which resulted in two important goals vs Russia and Canada)....

Jones is a GREAT young defensive prospect. He has the elite tools to be a #1 guy, but to fluff this guy to this extent, at this point, is meaningless. He's played 30 games in the CHL. 30 games. Let's keep it in perspective.

Erik Johnson is exactly the reason you don't go claiming that someone will be a star, and will be a franchise guy. It's not that he's terrible, but he certainly didn't become what he was projected to be. The same could happen to Jones, MacK, Barkov, Drouin, Monahan... you get the point.

+1, Sir.

you have to realize that johnson didnt dissapoint because of anything other that a devestating injury. he lost an entire season of his development because of it and its arguable that the injury caused that over anything else. i will say thay (which i cant believe is semi in support of interactif).

Look at the 1983 draft and the 2011 and 2012 NHL drafts and see where the players are coming from? I count 3 Americans at first glace, a couple of highschool/college players, a czech and a finn. But the majority of players in the first 2 rds were from the CJHL. Other than Russians who were not draft possible, is it that much different than last year or the year before? You completely ignored the College reference because I suppose you are always looking to poke me when it is obvious what the reference is. College hockey is a much more risky predictor than CJHL prospects are. Whether it is 1983. 1986 or 2006 or 2007. You conveniently also ignored the more recent examples I provided.

your not listening. hes saying that between now and 1983 the college progream has drastically improved, you cant compare the two anymore because there literally isnt a good frame of reference. same with other leagues. theyve all grown and become a lot more close to the chl for development. hes saying your comparisons dont make any sense, and i agree (although not with the use of johnson to show caution for jones).

 

[ErnieLeafs]

you have to realize that johnson didnt dissapoint because of anything other that a devestating injury. he lost an entire season of his development because of it and its arguable that the injury caused that over anything else. i will say thay (which i cant believe is semi in support of interactif).



your not listening. hes saying that between now and 1983 the college progream has drastically improved, you cant compare the two anymore because there literally isnt a good frame of reference. same with other leagues. theyve all grown and become a lot more close to the chl for development. hes saying your comparisons dont make any sense, and i agree (although not with the use of johnson to show caution for jones).

First off, blame it on the injury all you want, but Johnson's failure to live up to the hype can't be blamed on it. Lots of guys in lots of sports have deastating injuries (Adrian Peterson, anyone?) and are still able to live up to their billing, and in many cases, exceed these expectations.

The point is that nobody is a sure thing, and the hype machine isn't self-propelled. It's often due to the collective erection of the masses.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Finland is a contender for the gold I recall, said by you when you overreacted to a couple of meaningless pre tourney games.. I recall taking that statement with a grain of salt.

Hmmm... Sub-plots..... Right.

We're talkingabout Rielly, try staying on topic. Your agenda is tiring.

Call MacKenzie and the rest of the pros out too, I guess, as Finland was billedd to be a medal-worthy squad, with an outside shot at the top prize.

In regards to the lost draft lottery, Burke picks Jones, but should've picked Barkov.

 

[theIceWookie]

I won't pretend to comment on his play in the FEL, but I don't rate it as high as you obviously. The Finns are ok when it comes to hockey but as a hockey power, they are not quite there yet. What I will comment on is for all his hype, unlike Seth Jones or Drouin, he disappointed. I don't see it yet, Elite #1C, I see more in Grigorenko and you know how I feel about him. But I give him cred for at least showing up In games this tourney. The Finnish fans who watch Tappara, say he is surrounded by good vet talent, and this helps him, I listen since I have no desire watching FEL hockey. I am not as sure as you seem to be, on what I don't know unless you are a fan of the Tappara hockey team.

no they dont. finns who watch him say hes literally the biggest part of his team, and has very little offensive help, they applauded hansen coming because even a player like him helped there depth vastly (which says a lot about their team when a 3rd line nhler becomes one of their better players). they mention nieminen has been a good influence on him and hes helped a lot but barkov is still shoukders above not only his own team but most of the league.

look at the finns that you sourced. the dominant theme was "tired" and analysts agreed. hes used so much its not a surprise he was disapointing. hes his teams top player in EVERY situation and at least he still played defensive well, not something jones can say in most games.

and your idea that someone who wasnt alive during lawtons drafting not knowing anything about it, is incredible folly. your logoc pretty much states that history isntnsomething anyonen can be knowleagable or an expert in unless they lived during it at an arbitrary age. thats just terrible logic.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I won't pretend to comment on his play in the FEL, but I don't rate it as high as you obviously. The Finns are ok when it comes to hockey but as a hockey power, they are not quite there yet. What I will comment on is for all his hype, unlike Seth Jones or Drouin, he disappointed. I don't see it yet, Elite #1C, I see more in Grigorenko and you know how I feel about him. But I give him cred for at least showing up In games this tourney. The Finnish fans who watch Tappara, say he is surrounded by good vet talent, and this helps him, I listen since I have no desire watching FEL hockey. I am not as sure as you seem to be, on what I don't know unless you are a fan of the Tappara hockey team.

Of course. Team game.

Same way that Jones is helped by playing on a stacked Portland team. Or Nate and Drouin on a stacked Halifax team together.

Barkov's team isn't as good compared to the rest of the league as with those other kids. I'd also argue he has face tougher opposition than what he has on his line.

He has played some games with Jannik Hansen (about half of the games) though but looked better than him imo.

Barkov is the MVP there.

Most popular comparsion seems toi be M Koivu with perhaps more offensive upside. Not sure that excites me too much, not for a top 3 pick this draft when the worst is Drouin if you are picking better than 3. Drouin looks like a special player to most. Me included.

Joe Thornton or Kopitar would be more like it. Personally like Joe Thornton comparison the most.

But anyway, I have Barkov third. Behind Nate and Jones.

 

[theIceWookie]

Rasmus Ristolainen put in one of the best tournaments of any player at any position.

I like him WAY more than Olli Määta

elliote friedman actually mentioned a few scouts were dissapointed with him. specifically because of a lack of desire to be hit almost like he was scared. could be because of an injury but its interesting.

i loved hartman and dano. lindholm was solid. but id say only drouin and hartman (first rounders) really improved their standing. the rest merely stood still

 

[ErnieLeafs]

no they dont. finns who watch him say hes literally the biggest part of his team, and has very little offensive help, they applauded hansen coming because even a player like him helped there depth vastly (which says a lot about their team when a 3rd line nhler becomes one of their better players). they mention nieminen has been a good influence on him and hes helped a lot but barkov is still shoukders above not only his own team but most of the league.

look at the finns that you sourced. the dominant theme was "tired" and analysts agreed. hes used so much its not a surprise he was disapointing. hes his teams top player in EVERY situation and at least he still played defensive well, not something jones can say in most games.

and your idea that someone who wasnt alive during lawtons drafting not knowing anything about it, is incredible folly. your logoc pretty much states that history isntnsomething anyonen can be knowleagable or an expert in unless they lived during it at an arbitrary age. thats just terrible logic.

+1, to all points.

Not to mention I have my Masters in History.... Lol

Someone mentioned Craig Button's list being released... Look no further than Zadorov in the top 10, and the fact that Ristolainen in at 21 (after Button expressing he doesn't like the kid). If you don't like a kid, and are too blind to open your eyes, your credibility is a joke. Nichushkin all the way up, ahead of Monahan (a far more complete forward), due to his WJC, and Jones at #1 because of his WJC (not even a really great performance), but Ristolainen at 21 DESPITE his WJC?

Button's list/opinion is like reading the Daily Star.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

elliote friedman actually mentioned a few scouts were dissapointed with him. specifically because of a lack of desire to be hit almost like he was scared. could be because of an injury but its interesting.

i loved hartman and dano. lindholm was solid. but id say only drouin and hartman (first rounders) really improved their standing. the rest merely stood still

He was a bit tentative, for whatever reason, and that's why I wouldn't say his tournament was as good as it could've been, but in terms of poise, smart decision making, skating, shooting, passing... He pretty much covered it all.

 

[Rockinz]

Craig Button released his new scouting list:

He states Seth Jones is firmly in first place with the rest jockeying for the second spot. Barkov in the 3rd spot and Drouin in 4th.

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

MacKinnon will be first... I like Seth but he wont go #1...

I agree with Barkov #3 but any one of Linholm/Drouin/Monahan could go #4...

 

[theIceWookie]

First off, blame it on the injury all you want, but Johnson's failure to live up to the hype can't be blamed on it. Lots of guys in lots of sports have deastating injuries (Adrian Peterson, anyone?) and are still able to live up to their billing, and in many cases, exceed these expectations.

The point is that nobody is a sure thing, and the hype machine isn't self-propelled. It's often due to the collective erection of the masses.

collective erection heh. i like that.

while i agree, the point i made cant be ignored. not many people can take an entire year off a sport and still maintain the dominance theynsaw beforehand, thats not feasible. can it happen? yes. does it always happen? no. johnson has an asterisk beside his name with hype. that is because od his injury. it cant be ignored because it 100 percent factored into his development.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

collective erection heh. i like that.

while i agree, the point i made cant be ignored. not many people can take an entire year off a sport and still maintain the dominance theynsaw beforehand, thats not feasible. can it happen? yes. does it always happen? no. johnson has an asterisk beside his name with hype. that is because od his injury. it cant be ignored because it 100 percent factored into his development.

Is there an asterisk next to AP's incredible year, after having his knee almost completely re-constructed, and dominating as a running back?

He didn't make excuses, and everyone was ready to make them for him, but he STILL stepped up. I don't buy it.

 

[BIitz]

Craig Button released his new scouting list:

He states Seth Jones is firmly in first place with the rest jockeying for the second spot. Barkov in the 3rd spot and Drouin in 4th.

http://www.tsn.ca/draftcentre/feature/?id=49649

I'd be happy with Jones or Erne.

 

[Guy Boucher]

MacKinnon will be first... I like Seth but he wont go #1...

I agree with Barkov #3 but any one of Linholm/Drouin/Monahan could go #4...

I said back in August that MacKinnon will not be drafted 1st overall and I'm sticking with that.

Jones' is dynamic on so many levels that I just don't see any teams passing on him.