Confirmed Trade: Zibanejad for Brassard Part II.

[darko]

Keep posting gifs but it doesn't make you right.

 

[ecemleafs]

Keep posting gifs but it doesn't make you right.

if he says it enough maybe it will be true right?

 

[The Expert]

I think NYR are going to win this trade, not entirely sure what Ottawa is doing here... I guess the goal must be playoffs next season.

Only on hfboards is someone surprised that a team would try to make the playoffs.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

1) I don't know if he knows what it takes to lead or feel responsible for his team's fate because he's been a kid on pro teams for so long.

2) He doesn't carry the puck much, doesn't have a lot of vision and thinks shoot first. His future may ultimately be on RW.

I agree. I like Zib and see a lot of potential... Good size good wheels good shot. He can pk and is ok on the dot and he is pretty good at supporting down low in the d zone. But he is not a prototypical play making center and he is not the puck carrier although he is not terrible at it. He always looked better suited to the wing to me... others have argued but ... I think he might be really good on the wing.

He is young and he is learning about what it takes to be a pro and to get the best out of himself consistently... not new for young players. I think NYR will like him.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I agree. I like Zib and see a lot of potential... Good size good wheels good shot. He can pk and is ok on the dot and he is pretty good at supporting down low in the d zone. But he is not a prototypical play making center and he is not the puck carrier although he is not terrible at it. He always looked better suited to the wing to me... others have argued but ... I think he might be really good on the wing.

He is young and he is learning about what it takes to be a pro and to get the best out of himself consistently... not new for young players. I think NYR will like him.

If he's playing with Zuccarello he won't need to really carry the puck or be a playmaker, but I guess we'll see where he fits in when the season rolls around

 

[Tawnos]

In 2014 Brassard was the first line center on a Finals team.

In 2015 he was the first line center on a Presidents Trophy team that went to game 7 of the ECF.

I don't think Ottawa contends anytime soon anyway, but the ship has sailed as far as teams contending with Brassard as their best center.

There's an element of being a 1st line center that I think you're missing. Ice time.

In 2013-14, Stepan played 1:37 more per game at even strength in the playoffs, almost 13% higher. Brassard's P/60 was higher at 1.91 vs 1.62 for Stepan, so yes... more effective in production. In the regular season, both Richards and Stepan both played more at even strength. Stepan beat him in P/60 there. 1.85 to 1.43.

In 2014-15, Brassard was our top center in terms of ice time. However, in terms of production, Stepan was actually the better of the two, with a better P/60 at even strength and a higher PPG overall. Stepan, btw, got more ice time than Brassard in the playoffs, though Brassard outpaced him in production.

In 2015-16, Brassard got significantly more EV ice time than Stepan. Just about 10% more. Stepan outproduced him significantly in that time. 2.20 vs 1.85 in p/60.

My point is this. There's a equal weight to each argument about whether Brassard or Stepan has been the team's #1C for the last 3 years. In my mind, given that there's a strong argument either way, the answer is that neither player was the team's #1C, with the exception of the Crosby/Malkin situation.

 

[Samsquanch]

Because I think you already have a #2in Turris and I think you need a legit #1 and I don't think Bassard is that guy, you know I look at a team like Calgary who I think when you look at Monahan and Goodreau and the big 3 on D and the addition of Elliot to me that's a team would have been a fantastic fit for Bassard because I see Nonshan as a guy that I don't think has reached his peek, I thin Baring injury Monahan is putting up 75+ points this year.

I think Calgary is in the verge of being a contender and I think Bassard is a great fit for a team like them.

I also look at what some of the rising teams like Toronto and Buffalo have coming up the middle in Mathews and Eichel and I don't think Ottawa will be able to match up with those teams in a year or 2 once the likes of Eichel and Mathews are fully established plus Buffalo also has ROR who can play all forward positions.

I just think long term Ottawa won't be able to match up with the competition because I think they lack the guy down the midfield they can build around.

Not to mention Turris only has 2 years left under contract if they can't retain him that's a massive blow.

It's funny because people keep saying Brassard isn't that guy to put ottawa over the top, but it's even funnier because Zibanejad as the #2 was considered a road block for the Sens in their quest to become a contender. They didn't get impatient and trade away the future, we still have White and Brown and our other 1st round picks and top prospects.

For some odd reason, in the eyes of hfboarders, making the playoffs as one of the bottom seeds is a worse result than finishing in the bottom 10. It's not. At least for a team that's not trying to tank, and grow their young core.

I think that I speak for nearly all Sens fans when I say that while we have our superstar Dman in his prime, we would rather the Sens be continously making pushes towards becoming a better team, rather than hanging back and hoping that the team becomes elite all on its own.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Because I think you already have a #2in Turris and I think you need a legit #1 and I don't think Bassard is that guy, you know I look at a team like Calgary who I think when you look at Monahan and Goodreau and the big 3 on D and the addition of Elliot to me that's a team would have been a fantastic fit for Bassard because I see Nonshan as a guy that I don't think has reached his peek, I thin Baring injury Monahan is putting up 75+ points this year.

I think Calgary is in the verge of being a contender and I think Bassard is a great fit for a team like them.

I also look at what some of the rising teams like Toronto and Buffalo have coming up the middle in Mathews and Eichel and I don't think Ottawa will be able to match up with those teams in a year or 2 once the likes of Eichel and Mathews are fully established plus Buffalo also has ROR who can play all forward positions.

I just think long term Ottawa won't be able to match up with the competition because I think they lack the guy down the midfield they can build around.

Not to mention Turris only has 2 years left under contract if they can't retain him that's a massive blow.

If you wanted to remind the world who the mighty leafs picked first overall and what position he plays and what role he will ultimately play on the leafs just go ahead and inject / infect it into this thread .. no need to put all those other seemingly difficult to convey concepts in there. you should stick to the prospects and pretend trade threads

 

[projexns]

Only on hfboards is someone surprised that a team would try to make the playoffs.

I think the HFB model is to lie low in the weeds, suck every year, accumulate high picks, and when you think you're ready.....boom!....win the Stanley Cup.

No build-up required, no bumps in the road, no gaining playoff experience, just suck and then turn on a dime to a Stanley Cup.

And no players over age 29 allowed. They may be good, even great, but have no further upside.

 

[Tawnos]

It's funny because people keep saying Brassard isn't that guy to put ottawa over the top, but it's even funnier because Zibanejad as the #2 was considered a road block for the Sens in their quest to become a contender. They didn't get impatient and trade away the future, we still have White and Brown and our other 1st round picks and top prospects.

For some odd reason, in the eyes of hfboarders, making the playoffs as one of the bottom seeds is a worse result than finishing in the bottom 10. It's not. At least for a team that's not trying to tank, and grow their young core.

I think that I speak for nearly all Sens fans when I say that while we have our superstar Dman in his prime, we would rather the Sens be continously making pushes towards becoming a better team, rather than hanging back and hoping that the team becomes elite all on its own.

For a young team, the simple act of making the playoffs is invaluable, even if they get bounced early. The Rangers of 2011 fit that mold. The Penguins of 2007 fit that mold. The LA Kings of 2010 and 2011 fit that mold. The Blackhawks of 2009 would have fit that mold, but they went on an improbable run to the WCF with an inexperienced squad. The Lightning of 2014 fit that mold. ETC ETC ETC ETC.

Now, the Sens have a little more playoff experience around their roster than some of those. Still, if you look at the Rangers in 2011, that group needed that experience as a group, even if some of them were veterans or with the team in 2009.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think the HFB model is to lie low in the weeds, suck every year, accumulate high picks, and when you think you're ready.....boom!....win the Stanley Cup.

No build-up required, no bumps in the road, no gaining playoff experience, just suck and then turn on a dime to a Stanley Cup.

And no players over age 29 allowed. They may be good, even great, but have no further upside.

Where you go from being arguably the best player in the world to one peg up from hot garbage inside two years. The laf fans as quoted above ... were all about how great Marner is last year at this time ... now its "you can't win without a #1 franchise center" ... It will be interesting when they make the playoffs again.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Where you go from being arguably the best player in the world to one peg up from hot garbage inside two years. The laf fans as quoted above ... were all about how great Marner is last year at this time ... now its "you can't win without a #1 franchise center" ... It will be interesting when they make the playoffs again.

Name the last team to win without a legitimate #1 centre it doesn't happen often if at all

 

[SpezDispenser]

Names the last team to win without a legitimate #1 centre it doesn't happen often if at all

Turris was breaking out last year. I agree, it's near impossible, but you cannot discount how good Turris looked pre injury.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Turris was breaking out last year. I agree, it's near impossible, but you cannot discount how good Turris looked pre injury.

Oh he is good, he is VERY VERY good no question but I still see him as more of a#2 than a #1 but there is no question he is a very very good player.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Oh he is good, he is VERY VERY good no question but I still see him as more of a#2 than a #1 but there is no question he is a very very good player.

Yeah, the juries out right now. Obviously if he had continued uninjured last season we'd have a better idea.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Name the last team to win without a legitimate #1 centre it doesn't happen often if at all

The first one that comes to mind for me is the 1978/79 Montreal Canadiens

their top C was Jacque Lemaire (33 y/o) or Pierre Mondou (23 y/o)
Neither one of them you would classify as a #1 Franchise Center... They had a really deep team with stellar D and very good Goal tending.

Turris and Brassard are not the franchise type Centers but they are a strong 1 2 punch because they are arguably both low end #1 Cs and they compete hard.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The first one that comes to mind for me is the 1978/79 Montreal Canadiens

their top C was Jacque Lemaire (33 y/o) or Pierre Mondou (23 y/o)
Neither one of them you would classify as a #1 Franchise Center... They had a really deep team with stellar D and very good Goal tending.

Turris and Brassard are not the franchise type Centers but they are a strong 1 2 punch because they are arguably both low end #1 Cs and they compete hard.

Ok that's almost 40 years ago. You just proved my point that being you don't win without a guy down the middle that you know is the guy.

Ottawa is better today than they were before the deal but they still lack that true #1 stud at centre.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Ok that's almost 40 years ago. You just proved my point that being you don't win without a guy down the middle that you know is the guy.

Ottawa is better today than they were before the deal but they still lack that true #1 stud at centre.

No argument there. But the question is can a team win with depth ala 1978/79 Canadiens without the #1 Franchise C piece. I don't know. But depending on the other strengths it seems to me that it is possible.

 

[Crease]

Stepan was great that year. The last two years he's been awful. And Brassard has always been better defensively. Always.

Always? When has Brassard ever been better than Stepan defensively?

How can you explain the Selke votes, the short-handed time on ice, that Brassard and Zuccarello were separated because of issues in their own zone...

 

[Tawnos]

No argument there. But the question is can a team win with depth ala 1978/79 Canadiens without the #1 Franchise C piece. I don't know. But depending on the other strengths it seems to me that it is possible.

1993 Canadiens.
1995 Devils.
2011 Bruins.

 

[projexns]

Name the last team to win without a legitimate #1 centre it doesn't happen often if at all

The Rangers went to the Finals and another ECF with Brassard-Stepan as their 1-2 punch.

The Senators now have Brassard-Turris. There's not much difference between Turris and Stepan.

The Rangers had Lundqvist, the Sens have Karlsson.

Both teams have good wingers and good defencemen but I think the Rangers depth went farther down the roster.

The wild-card is the new coaching staff in Ottawa.

We're also probably one season away from Logan Brown's debut as a Senator. After Windsor hosts the Memorial Cup this season, I wouldn't see the point of sending a 6'6" center back to junior, so he'll have to play in the NHL as a 19 year-old.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

No argument there. But the question is can a team win with depth ala 1978/79 Canadiens without the #1 Franchise C piece. I don't know. But depending on the other strengths it seems to me that it is possible.

I think you can but in order to to do that you need I think you need 2 studs in another area, perfect example is the 07 ducks I feel like even if they did have Andy macdonald who I think had 80 points anyway that year anyway so the ducks might be a bad example.

But even if they didn't have A Mac they still had Pronger and Nedimayer and Beyond that a VERY VERY good JS Giguere so they might have Vern able to win anyway

But I think if you don't have the #1 at centre then you need to have something like the ducks did in 07 I think you need to be able to make up for that in other areas.

It's the equivalent of the sens having EK AND Doughty

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

1993 Canadiens.
1995 Devils.
2011 Bruins.

The Bruins had Bergeron Seguin and Krejci they don't count

 

[Proust*]

This is DJ ZBAD at a recent gig. Explains why he shows up to camp every year looking like the Pillsbury Doughboy.

 

[Tawnos]

The Bruins had Bergeron Seguin and Krejci they don't count

Yeah, no. Seguin is a franchise C, but wasn't performing like one in 2011. Bergeron and Krejci are great in their own rights, but not franchise centers. I'll admit this is debatable, since a lot of people consider Bergeron to be one. I don't.