zeke's Official Top-20 Center Rankings

[Sentinel]

Why don't you take the names on the list and sort them by cups, I'm sure many people will be impressed. Shouldn't take much effort either so have at it. Side benefit - Matthews, Tavares and Kadri will be tied for last with 0 cups so many of those who aren't impressed will at least be happy.

Why don't you turn off your TV at the end of regular season? Clearly, playoffs and Stanley Cup (aka "The Holy Grail") winners don't matter to you.

Kuznetsov should be ranked higher than Tavares and Kadri combined. At least in the land beyond Toronto.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Why don't you turn off your TV at the end of regular season? Clearly, playoffs and Stanley Cup (aka "The Holy Grail") winners don't matter to you.

Kuznetsov should be ranked higher than Tavares and Kadri combined. At least in the land beyond Toronto.

Is that a land where numbers and math don't matter?

 

[Sentinel]

Is that a land where numbers and math don't matter?

I am curious if you rank Mike Gartner in the Top 10 players (or even goalscorers) of all time.

If the numbers contradict common sense and results in the only category that really matters, the numbers need to be reevaluated. Perhaps they don't tell the whole story. Perhaps context matters. Perhaps your methodology needs more factors.

"There is lies, damn lies, and statistics."

 

[Nizdizzle]

Could we see the same thing with PP as well? It seems like a really weak excuse to outright cut it out, and feels like the most likely source of bias available in this.

At the very least, you could provide the ranking setup with it, as well, and let other people decide how much merit they want to give to it

See post #39

 

[Rob Brown]

Not that I agree that Kadri, for example, is in the top 20, but at least zeke put some effort in instead of making a totally arbitrary and subjective list. If so many of you have issues with his list you should put some work in and come up with some better that isn't just personal opinion.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Why don't you turn off your TV at the end of regular season? Clearly, playoffs and Stanley Cup (aka "The Holy Grail") winners don't matter to you.

Kuznetsov should be ranked higher than Tavares and Kadri combined. At least in the land beyond Toronto.

Is that what you think I said?

You seem to be angry and confused, time to take a deep breath (and a step back) IMO.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I am curious if you rank Mike Gartner in the Top 10 players (or even goalscorers) of all time.

If the numbers contradict common sense and results in the only category that really matters, the numbers need to be reevaluated. Perhaps they don't tell the whole story. Perhaps context matters. Perhaps your methodology needs more factors.

"There is lies, damn lies, and statistics."

Hockey is a job to these people, the better they do in the regular season the more money they get. Yes players go all out in the playoffs but a great playoff doesn't make you a great player. Ray Bourque is another example, he doesn't become a better player because at the end of his career he goes to Colorado.

His best seasons were in Boston, he was at his best when he didn't win the cup.

 

[Echo Roku]

Have you read the thread because he already did one for that since people kept assuming bias, it actually helps the Leaf centers as they were great on the power play. Tavares was a little bit worse Kadri was a lot better and Matthews was slightly better.

The Leafs had an elite power play why would not adding power play stats help them?

Well, you have a lot to learn from the guy who just linked it. Wow oh wow. Calm yourself.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Well, you have a lot to learn from the guy who just linked it. Wow oh wow. Calm yourself.

People who open their mouths without doing the smallest amount of research are a pet peeve. Perhaps actually read a thread before you jump in guns blazing next time.

 

[Echo Roku]

People who open their mouths without doing the smallest amount of research are a pet peeve. Perhaps actually read a thread before you jump in guns blazing next time.

"Guns blazing"

Yeah, you really need to calm down.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

"Guns blazing"

Yeah, you really need to calm down.

Do you usually attack people when they point out you're wrong instead of just admitting fault and moving on?

 

[Echo Roku]

Do you usually attack people when they point out you're wrong instead of just admitting fault and moving on?

Telling someone to calm down is attacking them?

Seriously, calm down. You're taking this way too personally to be beneficial for anyone's mental health. Claiming I'm attacking you is just proving it outright.

 

[Albi34]

Lol at the people saying bias because it's 5v5 stats. Discarding the powerplay literally hurts the leafs players in this formula...have people forgotten they have one of the best powerplays in the league the last 2 years?

 

[Alf the dwarf]

Hey guyyyys, calm doown, every little things gonna be alright. Peace and love.

 

[Rebels57]

Well done Zeke

 

[Nizdizzle]

Hey guyyyys, calm doown, every little things gonna be alright. Peace and love.

You've just made an enemy for life!

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Telling someone to calm down is attacking them?

Seriously, calm down. You're taking this way too personally to be beneficial for anyone's mental health. Claiming I'm attacking you is just proving it outright.

Uh huh, you get that pretty much everyone here just posts to kill time and don't actually care that much. You're welcome to continue your childish antics but I'm done engaging with you.

Have the last word or don't.

 

[howkie]

no doubt I place great importance on QOC. thing is, Malkin is the actual 2nd line center that gets turned into a 1st line center by other stats. Couts, Toews, Monahan are all clearcut #1Cs on their teams, not sheltered 2nd line guys. And kadri over the last 2yrs started as the #1C as Matthews was eased into the league.



true, though again the difference you're thinking of is probably exaggerated by PP minutes. and I still think the PP is way too prone to small sample fluke and opporunity to get a good read from it. I'm not really sure why a player's superior true talent offense wouldn't show up at even strength.

and, of course, if we include PP we should probably include PK too.

But here's how these 28 rank in PP p/60 over the last 2yrs

1.Stamkos 7.51
2.Malkin 7.11
3.Backstrom 6.70
4.Seguin 6.45
5.Crosby 6.44
6.Kadri 6.33
7.Matthews 6.29
8.Eichel 6.12
9.Kuznetsov 6.00
10.McDavid 5.72
11.MacKinnon 5.71
12.Barzal 5.65
13.Kopitar 5.63
14.Bergeron 5.52
15.Getzlaf 5.32
16.Tavares 5.41
17.Staal 5.05
18.Krejci 4.71
19.Horvat 4.47
20.Scheifele 4.12
21.Zetterberg 4.06
22.Barkov 3.98
23.Point 3.92
24.Monahan 3.91
25.Toews 3.88
26.Stastny 3.44
27.Duchene 2.98
28.Couturier 2.56

and p1/60:

1.Stamkos 5.82
2.Kadri 5.28
3.Seguin 4.78
4.Crosby 4.65
5.Bergeron 4.65
6.Matthews 4.49
7.Malkin 4.43
8.MacKinnon 4.22
9.Backstrom 3.97
10.Tavares 3.94
11.Getzlaf 3.87
12.Kuznetsov 3.77
13.Staal 3.75
14.Horvat 3.72
15.Eichel 3.70
16.Krejci 3.49
17.Monahan 3.32
18.McDavid 3.23
19.Kopitar 3.14
20.Stastny 2.97
21.Zetterberg 2.84
22.Barzal 2.82
23.Duchene 2.54
24.Toews 2.44
25.Barkov 2.33
26.Scheifele 2.27
27.Point 2.05
28.Couturier 1.92

and then we combine them:

1.Stamkos 2
2.Seguin 7
3.Kadri 8
4.Crosby 9
5.Malkin 9
6.Backstrom 12
7.Matthews 13
8.MacKinnon 19
9.Bergeron 19
10.Kuznetsov 21
11.Eichel 23
12.Tavares 26
13.Getzlaf 26
14.McDavid 28
15.Staal 30
16.Kopitar 32
17.Horvat 33
18.Barzal 34
19.Krejci 34
20.Monahan 41
21.Zetterberg 42
22.Stastny 46
23.Scheifele 46
24.Barkov 47
25.Toews 49
26.Point 50
27.Duchene 50
28.Couturier 56

already I think you can see more anomalies pop up in the PP numbers, most of which is likely just small sample size issue. Or maybe scheifele really just sucks on the PP for some reason, I dunno.

Including the PP numbers would give a solid boost to Stamkos/Seguin/Kadri/Crosby/Malkin (2-3 spots maybe?) and would hurt Scheifele, Barkov, Toews, Couturier by a similar amount.

If I just eyeball it, maybe it would change my list into this?


1.McDavid 19
2.Crosby 45
3.MacKinnon 63
4.Bergeron 70
5.Scheifele 57
6.Barkov 63
7.Kopitar 76
8.Tavares 79
9.Couturier 67
10.Stamkos 92
11.Backstrom 85
12.Matthews 88
13.Getzlaf 85
14.Toews 78
15.Malkin 104
16.Kadri 110
17.Seguin 115
18.Staal 109
19.Barzal 109
20.Monahan 120

maybe something like that? does that look better?

Scheiff doesnt suck, just that he is not the setup guy who horde points, that would be Wheeler. Scheif is a shooter hovering in the center spot.

 

[Echo Roku]

Uh huh, you get that pretty much everyone here just posts to kill time and don't actually care that much. You're welcome to continue your childish antics but I'm done engaging with you.

Have the last word or don't.

And apparently you'll just tell yourself anything to convince yourself you're in the right for basically harassing me at this point. You even pulled the cliche "have the last word" thing to make yourself feel as though you could "win" whatever battle you think you're in by not replying.

Well, have fun with that.

 

[Mr Positive]

great work. This has got to be the only stat based list I've seen. I have to admit it's interesting to see considering some of the big surprises, but all of them are fair.

So many subjective analysis rely too much on what "feels" right. It's a lot of basis on reputation instead of facts. So for instance, it really makes me look sideways to see Kadri there, but if he puts up those kinds of numbers then he deserves it I guess.

It's also really good to see Barkov so high considering that he never really gets his due on these lists. Sure, he gets mentioned, but being on Florida and not being a flashy scorer drags him down more than he should be.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Well, you have a lot to learn from the guy who just linked it. Wow oh wow. Calm yourself.

"Guns blazing"

Yeah, you really need to calm down.

Telling someone to calm down is attacking them?

Seriously, calm down. You're taking this way too personally to be beneficial for anyone's mental health. Claiming I'm attacking you is just proving it outright.

And apparently you'll just tell yourself anything to convince yourself you're in the right for basically harassing me at this point. You even pulled the cliche "have the last word" thing to make yourself feel as though you could "win" whatever battle you think you're in by not replying.

Well, have fun with that.

So you respond to a perfectly reasonable, on topic post with all this zero-content nonsense? Hopefully you're 13 years old and this is a passing phase, nothing else to say really. And since that IS is all I'm going to say on the "subject" I'll leave the last word to you, you seem to like that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

great work. This has got to be the only stat based list I've seen. I have to admit it's interesting to see considering some of the big surprises, but all of them are fair.

So many subjective analysis rely too much on what "feels" right. It's a lot of basis on reputation instead of facts. So for instance, it really makes me look sideways to see Kadri there, but if he puts up those kinds of numbers then he deserves it I guess.

It's also really good to see Barkov so high considering that he never really gets his due on these lists. Sure, he gets mentioned, but being on Florida and not being a flashy scorer drags him down more than he should be.

Excellent post, especially the bolded - I really think we underestimate the "reputation" effect.

 

[Echo Roku]

So you respond to a perfectly reasonable, on topic post with all this zero-content nonsense? Hopefully you're 13 years old and this is a passing phase, nothing else to say really. And since that IS is all I'm going to say on the "subject" I'll leave the last word to you, you seem to like that.

He treated me asking for the full story as a personal attack on the Leafs of all things, and only doubled down on it as it was pointed out that he was taking it way too personally.

You need some chill pills, too? You seem awfully desperate to treat it the same for no reason in particular

 

[Sentinel]

Hockey is a job to these people, the better they do in the regular season the more money they get. Yes players go all out in the playoffs but a great playoff doesn't make you a great player. Ray Bourque is another example, he doesn't become a better player because at the end of his career he goes to Colorado.

His best seasons were in Boston, he was at his best when he didn't win the cup.

How good of a player he was? Probably not. How great of a player? Most certainly.

I'm starting to suspect your aversion to playoffs (known to most hockey fans as "the real season") might have something to do with the current and recent playoff success of your team and its players. Or, ratherr lack thereof. Phil Kessel's value certainly went up after he showed he could deliver in playoffs.

 

[Notsince67]

So the #1C on the reigning cup champion who scored the most playoff points since Malkin and has been statistically comparable to Schiefele isn't a top 20 C in the NHL and would be the #4C on the Leafs.

Should the rest of the NHL just forfeit 2018-2019? Maybe the caps players can cross out their names on the cup and write in the leafs names instead as a courtesy.

The approach was spelled out. It is really unfair to criticize the results unless you have a suggestion to tweak the methodology.