Player Discussion Zac Jones

[nyr2k2]

Jones was one of the 3 best players on a top team at the Men's World Championships and Robertson didn't even make the team for the under-20's.

Come on guys. Robertson is a fine prospect, but there's clearly a gap here.

Robertson missed the WJC because of COVID.

It's definitely impressive that Jones played as well as he did, but this was the most watered-down WC I've ever seen. The US defense was primarily washed up NHLers like Clendening or guys who are fringe NHL/AHL players. The best player of that bunch isn't necessarily a great player--it's like being the best quarterback on the Jets or something.

I mean, I think it's fine to view Jones as a superior prospect to Robertson but let's keep what Jones did in context and also understand what happened with Robertson at the WJC.

 

[pblawr]

Robertson tested positive for Covid during the WJC camp. We don't know if he would have made the team had he not tested positive, but the WJC is the best of the best under 20 years old. The WC teams for the US and Canada are full of marginal NHL players, especially this year. If the US had sent their actually best, Jones wouldn't have been anywhere near making the team. This was the US defense:

Ryan Shea (24 years old, 0 NHL games, plays in the AHL)
Matt Roy (26 years old, 139 career NHL games)
Conner Mackey (24 years old, played 6 NHL games this year and 27 in the AHL)
Adam Clendening (28 years old, 90 career NHL games, currently plays in the AHL)
Chris Wideman (31 years old, 181 career NHL games, currently plays in the KHL)
Matt Tennyson (31 years old, 165 career NHL games)
Zac Jones (20 years old, 10 NHL games)
Matt Hellickson (23 years old, 0 NHL games, plays in the AHL)
Christian Wolanin (26 years old, 61 career NHL games)

It wasn't really that hard for Jones to stand out from that group.

Yes, the Men's World Championship doesn't include the best men's players, but it still seems clear that the level of competition at the Men's World Championship is significantly higher than at the U-20 tournament, which really should not be that surprising for a tournament that is primarily comprised of professional men's players instead of junior players.

- Schneider, who was a top 4 defenseman on the WJC team that Robertson didn't make, was on a Men's World Championship team and barely played.

- Zegras, who was the best player at the U-20's split time between the AHL and the NHL this year just like the guys you mentioned above.

- The US team included guys like Jason Robertson, who scored almost a PPG in the NHL this year and Kevin Labanc, who was recently a middle 6 player on a cup contender. Either of those guys would have been the best player at the WJC this year and the US coaching staff voted Jones over both of them.

 

[pblawr]

Robertson missed the WJC because of COVID.

It's definitely impressive that Jones played as well as he did, but this was the most watered-down WC I've ever seen. The US defense was primarily washed up NHLers like Clendening or guys who are fringe NHL/AHL players. The best player of that bunch isn't necessarily a great player--it's like being the best quarterback on the Jets or something.

I mean, I think it's fine to view Jones as a superior prospect to Robertson but let's keep what Jones did in context and also understand what happened with Robertson at the WJC.

Covid formally ended Robertson's try out, but do you think Robertson was making the WJC team over Byram, Harley, and Guhle either way? At best, he's a guy who was on the fringe of making that team, which really doesn't compare to what Jones did.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I think the Krug comparison is far more apt than Fox. That being said, I saw Fox more as a Shattenkirk type coming out of Harvard than a cornerstone #1 defensemen, so wtf do I know?

Krug is who he compares himself to

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Robertson missed the WJC because of COVID.

It's definitely impressive that Jones played as well as he did, but this was the most watered-down WC I've ever seen. The US defense was primarily washed up NHLers like Clendening or guys who are fringe NHL/AHL players. The best player of that bunch isn't necessarily a great player--it's like being the best quarterback on the Jets or something.

I mean, I think it's fine to view Jones as a superior prospect to Robertson but let's keep what Jones did in context and also understand what happened with Robertson at the WJC.

I personally think Jones is better than Robertson but I felt that way 2 years ago and certainly don't think the WC has any bearing on it at all.

 

[nyr2k2]

I personally think Jones is better than Robertson but I felt that way 2 years ago and certainly don't think the WC has any bearing on it at all.

And I don't think it's an unreasonable opinion. Having watched a ton of both of them over the past two seasons, though, I don't think the gap is particularly significant. It's also not a direct comparison as despite the numbers he's posted the past couple years, Robertson really isn't going to be a huge point producer, but more of a two-way transitional guy. I think his defensive game is going to be quite a bit better than Jones' as well, despite Jones making up for his lack of size and top-end skating with excellent smarts. Different players.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

And I don't think it's an unreasonable opinion. Having watched a ton of both of them over the past two seasons, though, I don't think the gap is particularly significant. It's also not a direct comparison as despite the numbers he's posted the past couple years, Robertson really isn't going to be a huge point producer, but more of a two-way transitional guy. I think his defensive game is going to be quite a bit better than Jones' as well, despite Jones making up for his lack of size and top-end skating with excellent smarts. Different players.

Yeah, it's more a matter of personal preference rather than one being significantly better than the other. I think Jones is a better playmaker and allround player, while Robertson edges him out in pure defense

 

[pblawr]

I've watched both of them multiple times and think Jones is clearly better. I guess we'll find out in time.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I've watched both of them multiple times and think Jones is clearly better. I guess we'll find out in time.

And that's fine but I don't feel the WC impacts that at all

 

[jay from jersey]

Yeah, it's more a matter of personal preference rather than one being significantly better than the other. I think Jones is a better playmaker and allround player, while Robertson edges him out in pure defense

I agree with this. Robertson’s size is a huge plus. He uses his stick very well and cuts down on angles very well when defending. Similar to the way Staal played early in his tenure. Or even Malik to an extent. Robertson isn’t overly physical but doesn’t shy away from contact either. He’s going to be a real solid defender. He has an excellent first and always seems to make the right subtle little plays and choices with the puck
Offensively he moves the puck way better then Staal ever did. I think when he adds 10-15 pounds he’ll use his body more as well. Not from throwing huge hits but more so cancelling guys out along the boards, that kind of thing.
I agree with you that Jones is the better purely offensive defender. I think he sees the ice better offensively and has that sneakiness when making passes etc. he’s not a bad defender in his own right, but not as good as Robertson
Whose the better prospect?? Tough call. I think Jones will always have better numbers. He will run a PP somewhere at some point. I don’t think robertson ever will. I think he’s more of a 30-35 pt guy that can kill penalties and play top 4 tough D minutes. Jones could also get better on the defensive side of the puck. He hasn’t been a defenseman all that long. 2 very good prospects but different styles. Flip a coin

 

[eco's bones]

With maybe the exceptions of Hajek and Reunanen I think it’s way too early to be moving on from any of our top young defensemen and I wouldn’t be moving on from Trouba either.

Lindgren’s late season injury gave both Hajek and Jones a lot more ice time than they would have otherwise and I think they both looked very good at the end of the year.

on comparing Jones to Fox I think that physically Jones can do practically anything that Fox can. It’s the mental three steps ahead of the play stuff though that sets Fox apart not only from Jones but even peers like Makar and Quinn Hughes both of whom however who are better skaters than Fox.

On Jones game from what I’ve seen there’s more of a physical edge. He’s almost like a cross between Fox and his D partner Lindgren and yeah he could turn into a Torey Krug like player.

 

[eco's bones]

Matt Robertson should become a really good defensemen. Going into next season I think Jones if only because of the experiences he’s had already has the edge on him but looking down the line a few years—a young Marc Staal or Adam Pelech is what we might have in Robertson. You don’t give those players away just because you have a glut at a position. To me you let all the stuff between Lindgren, Miller, Jones and Robertson on the left side play out.

 

[eco's bones]

Even with Hajek it should be remembered he’s still a really young guy and not a seasoned veteran. The two concerns I have with him right now is the two way game he had at the WJC and in the WHL has still yet to make an appearance in his pro game and he has the body and strength to play a more physical and aggressive game if he pushed himself and IMO it would benefit his game overall. He’s laying back a little much being too careful.

But whether with the Rangers or another NHL team I think eventually he’ll be a good player.

 

[pblawr]

And that's fine but I don't feel the WC impacts that at all

It doesn't mean everything, but it should have some impact. It's another data point where Jones is clearly ahead Robertson.

Having your head 6 inches higher off the ice doesn't mean everything either. Other than size, is there anything you can point to where Robertson is better than Jones?

I hope I'm wrong, but I think Robertson's defensive play gets overrated. Unfortunately the clips I've posted before got taken down (Prospect Info: - 2020 NHL Draft 19th Overall Pick, Braden Schneider, D), but Robertson loses a lot of puck battles every time I watch him play (Rees and Pelletier are 5'11" and 5'9" by the way).

Meanwhile Jones' possession and defensive micro stats were off the charts in college (just like Fox's), and he's held his own against NHL players in two settings now. If you are evaluating them based on actual hockey performance so far, I think Jones has clearly been the better defensive player.

Jones has improved at a dramatically faster rate. Whose development would you rather bet on? The guy who has played 5 seasons in the same league now or the guy who went from high school hockey to USHL rookie of the year to the top defenseman on the NCAA Championship team to the NHL to a top 3 player on a team with several NHL players in 4 years?

@Beacon and I got ripped on when we were the only guys here arguing that Fox would be better than a 3rd pairing defenseman who played on the PP. I didn't think Fox would be as good as he is, and I don't think Jones will be as good as Fox is, but this feels an awful lot like a similar player with similar production and possession / defensive stats at a similar level getting underrated for similar reasons.

 

[NYR425]

For all the back and forth you can not win 4 playoff series to win the Stanley Cup with 3- defenseman less then 6ft tall. You need bigger stronger players on defense to survive the grind of these playoff rounds. Fox is starting to establish himself as an elite defenseman. Lundkvist and Jones are very good prospects but I don't see how you can expect to be a cup contender and have all 3 in your top 6. One of them at the very least has to be moved for help at center.

 

[cwede]

Jones was one of the 3 best players on a top team at the Men's World Championships... Robertson is a fine prospect, but there's clearly a gap here.

i respectfully thoroughly disagree that "there's clearly a gap here"
With massive respect for what Jones has accomplished

much of any basis for a perceived gap is due to visibility, opportunity and situation
We learn to evaluate players by their performance in the situation they are in, because those situations, and the opportunities the players have, vary.
Robertson has only excelled and achieved consistently since drafted.
So has Jones.

 

[nyr2k2]

@Beacon and I got ripped on when we were the only guys here arguing that Fox would be better than a 3rd pairing defenseman who played on the PP. I didn't think Fox would be as good as he is, and I don't think Jones will be as good as Fox is, but this feels an awful lot like a similar player with similar production and possession / defensive stats at a similar level getting underrated for similar reasons.

When did that happen? I don't ever remember this board thinking that Fox was topping out as a third-pair PP specialist. I mean I have no doubt that some looney was out there arguing that giving up two second was a catastrophe because Fox was nothing special, but the consensus on Fox from day one here was that he was an excellent prospect with a chance to be really good. I don't recall anyone proclaiming him Norris material in his second year, but we all expected him to be really good.

Beacon got roasted over and over for his obsession with only looking at point-per-game production and what league it came in, and comparing players based on that alone. And that roasting was totally justified.

 

[Raspewtin]

For all the back and forth you can not win 4 playoff series to win the Stanley Cup with 3- defenseman less then 6ft tall. You need bigger stronger players on defense to survive the grind of these playoff rounds. Fox is starting to establish himself as an elite defenseman. Lundkvist and Jones are very good prospects but I don't see how you can expect to be a cup contender and have all 3 in your top 6. One of them at the very least has to be moved for help at center.

What's with the 6 foot cut off? it's so arbitrary. so if Lundkvist, Fox, and Jones all grew two inches it would be okay?

I don't disagree that we are probably not going to see a Rangers team where all three of them are regulars but it's weird how with these players, the 6 foot cutoff strips their entire game of merit. Fox is 5'10" and has been hit like twice in his life because his IQ and puck moving is god tier. Lundkvist is physical and strong positionally, he has some room to bulk up and brings a big shot and great puck moving. Jones has won and exceled at every level and brings skating, physicality, and high end puck moving skill. These players bring things that we're likely not getting anywhere else, let alone in another player who's at the mythical 6'1".

 

[pblawr]

When did that happen? I don't ever remember this board thinking that Fox was topping out as a third-pair PP specialist. I mean I have no doubt that some looney was out there arguing that giving up two second was a catastrophe because Fox was nothing special, but the consensus on Fox from day one here was that he was an excellent prospect with a chance to be really good. I don't recall anyone proclaiming him Norris material in his second year, but we all expected him to be really good.

Beacon got roasted over and over for his obsession with only looking at point-per-game production and what league it came in, and comparing players based on that alone. And that roasting was totally justified.

Confirmed with Link: - New York Rangers Sign Adam Fox to Entry Level Deal

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

What's with the 6 foot cut off? it's so arbitrary. so if Lundkvist, Fox, and Jones all grew two inches it would be okay?

I don't disagree that we are probably not going to see a Rangers team where all three of them are regulars but it's weird how with these players, the 6 foot cutoff strips their entire game of merit. Fox is 5'10" and has been hit like twice in his life because his IQ and puck moving is god tier. Lundkvist is physical and strong positionally, he has some room to bulk up and brings a big shot and great puck moving. Jones has won and exceled at every level and brings skating, physicality, and high end puck moving skill. These players bring things that we're likely not getting anywhere else, let alone in another player who's at the mythical 6'1".

I don't get it at all. 5'11" is bad, but 6'0" is fine? The difference we're talking about here is less than the diameter of a puck.

 

[Fitzy]

It's literally always the metrics people. Every single time.

 

[TheDirtyH]

What's with the 6 foot cut off? it's so arbitrary. so if Lundkvist, Fox, and Jones all grew two inches it would be okay?

I don't disagree that we are probably not going to see a Rangers team where all three of them are regulars but it's weird how with these players, the 6 foot cutoff strips their entire game of merit. Fox is 5'10" and has been hit like twice in his life because his IQ and puck moving is god tier. Lundkvist is physical and strong positionally, he has some room to bulk up and brings a big shot and great puck moving. Jones has won and exceled at every level and brings skating, physicality, and high end puck moving skill. These players bring things that we're likely not getting anywhere else, let alone in another player who's at the mythical 6'1".

I think the 6' or 6'1" cutoff is arbitrary, but definitely having size on the blueline is an asset in the game today. With Miller, Robertson, Schneider, and Trouba--as well as Lindgren who plays a physical style--I think we have our bases covered in that department. But to have a blueline of majority smaller defensemen would present some challenges, mainly at the front of the net.

The other thing to consider about our smaller guys in particular is that they're not the most fleet of foot. Lindren is probably our best skating defenseman at this moment from a quickness and agility standpoint. K'Andre's obviously smooth for his size and can build up speed really well, but Fox, Jones, and even Lundqvist aren't especially quick guys. Personally I don't love the idea of having both a small d-corps and a fairly slow one.

 

[nyr2k2]

Confirmed with Link: - New York Rangers Sign Adam Fox to Entry Level Deal

The first page of that thread starts out with dancing GIFs and comps to Barrie, Shattenkirk, and Yandle. Then someone comes in with skating concerns but that he's a 2nd pair guy who is great on the PP. Lots of discussion about Pionk, Staal, DeAngelo, etc. Comps to Ryan Ellis and Gostisbehere (the good version). Lots of discussion about Smith. Agreement that Sean Day sucks. Questions about how Fox compares to Makar, reiteration that he's Shattenkirk-like. Fox will be better than Shattenkirk. You pointing out Carolina's GM said he had Fox rated above Hughes and Makar, and people getting more excited. Crapping on Staal's leadership. Brian Burke article where he says Fox will be a stud. And it goes on like that. One person says the hype is getting out of control but that's not even unreasonable.

I saw no one calling him a third-pair PP specialist unless it was someone I blocked. Seems like that whole thread is people creaming themselves and maybe saying "let's pump the breaks a bit until we see what we have."

 

[Fitzy]

The first page of that thread starts out with dancing GIFs

You're welcome

 

[pblawr]

The first page of that thread starts out with dancing GIFs and comps to Barrie, Shattenkirk, and Yandle. Then someone comes in with skating concerns but that he's a 2nd pair guy who is great on the PP. Lots of discussion about Pionk, Staal, DeAngelo, etc. Comps to Ryan Ellis and Gostisbehere (the good version). Lots of discussion about Smith. Agreement that Sean Day sucks. Questions about how Fox compares to Makar, reiteration that he's Shattenkirk-like. Fox will be better than Shattenkirk. You pointing out Carolina's GM said he had Fox rated above Hughes and Makar, and people getting more excited. Crapping on Staal's leadership. Brian Burke article where he says Fox will be a stud. And it goes on like that. One person says the hype is getting out of control but that's not even unreasonable.

I saw no one calling him a third-pair PP specialist unless it was someone I blocked. Seems like that whole thread is people creaming themselves and maybe saying "let's pump the breaks a bit until we see what we have."

I thought I linked to the specific posts, but maybe that didn't come through. Anyway, if you really want to look them up, the 11th page is where I got called out for being the only guy hyping him. If you can't see it, maybe it's someone you blocked.