Your Mt.Rushmore of OVERRATED and Mt.Rushmore of UNDERRATED ... all time

[MadLuke]

Jagr at his best was a big 6foot3-4 puck possession monster outscoring the whole nhl by an impressive margin.

It is not that controversial of a statement, he has a good argument to be around the 5th best athlete-hockey player ever.

Maybe even if you consider that true you still draft Crosby to build your team around, all that was done to keep Jagr happy and motivated with the pens-caps sound a bit complicated, but to be fair to him they were not that well run or well financed by moments regardless.

 

[WalterLundy]

Jagr at his best was a 6foot4 puck possession monster outscoring the whole nhl by an impressive margin.

It is not that controversial of a statement, he has a good argument to be around the 5th best athlete-hockey player ever.

Maybe even if you consider that true you still draft Crosby to build your team around, all that was done to keep Jagr happy and motivated with the pens-caps sound a bit complicated, but to be fair to him they were not that well run or well financed by moments regardless.

I agree. I didn’t even want to put Crosby as overrated in a general sense because he’s not. He deserves to be 5-8 range all time and I have him 5th. Saying Jagr at his peak was better than Crosby at his (even pacing out his 2011) isn’t that controversial. At least it shouldn’t be. For me I feel like people need to be able to make the distinction between Crosby vs Jagr for prime/peak and for career.

 

[WalterLundy]

At their best, I'm pretty confident that Orr was better than Gretzky.

The real challenge though is that Orr is out at that otherworldly level for about 3 years. After his 1972 knee injury he lacks the mobility to be s-tier offensively and defensively at the same time.

So in an all time vote, yes I put Gretzky ahead. But best single season, I put Orr ahead.

I wish I’d have been able to see Orr at his best. Obviously for career it’s pretty easy to say Wayne but I can kind of understand his peak being rated second. It’s a hard sell for me to have it above Gretzky’s but I can at least understand where the arguments are coming from. The first 51-57 games of 1984 are what seal it in my mind. Playing at a 3 ppg clip like that before (and then slightly after) the shoulder injury is just unbelievable. We could have seen a 240 point season I truly believe. Even if you adjust the first 57 games to say 2022-23 you are looking at 139 in 57 games. When you picture a 200 point pace in todays game it just reinforces that for me.

Your posts are usually really good though and I’d be more than willing to hear why you’d have Orr as the best peak (I’m assuming Orr-Gretzky-Lemieux order for you). I’m sure you know more about Orr and players that came before him than I do genuinely.

 

[Michael Farkas]

"Crosby could be the best non-big-4 player ever" and "I find that overrated"...? Am I misreading that...?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I’m glad it captivated you. Jagr at his best was better than Crosby. By the way Bobby Orr wasn’t better than Wayne Gretzky.

You state that as fact, so I can safely say you are incorrect.

 

[WalterLundy]

"Crosby could be the best non-big-4 player ever" and "I find that overrated"...? Am I misreading that...?

Quote me and I can help. There is a massive literacy issue on this site but I’ll make it easy for you. Crosby’s career isn’t overrated. Certain aspects are overrated. Two things can be true at the same time here. His peak never really happened (first half of 2007 being equivalent to his 2011 41 game sample can be brought up but I’ll save it) and yet people try to use the small samples from 2011-2013 to compare to the peaks of other greats. His best full seasons are great seasons but for a generational talent nothing to be blown away by. His two way game/defense is also massively exaggerated. With that said his career isn’t overrated as he’s done everything a player can do and has nothing missing from his resume.

 

[WalterLundy]

You state that as fact, so I can safely say you are incorrect.

Went with 12 seasons to match.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Man, to call me out for a literacy issue and then post that in the very next post...*whistles*

 

[WalterLundy]

Man, to call me out for a literacy issue and then post that in the very next post...*whistles*

A large amount of users on here have a severe inability to comprehend what they read. It’s a far worse problem than most realize. It’s been happening very frequently and I’ve become annoyed. You are just the newest member of that group that I’ve identified. I’m also not being paid for writing articles or anything nor do I care about the standards of Michael Farkas so I’m not exactly striving for perfection here. I explained my position pretty clearly and you still have no response. There really isn’t anything to discuss further about that.

 

[daver]

Quote me and I can help. There is a massive literacy issue on this site but I’ll make it easy for you. Crosby’s career isn’t overrated. Certain aspects are overrated. Two things can be true at the same time here. His peak never really happened (first half of 2007 being equivalent to his 2011 41 game sample can be brought up but I’ll save it) and yet people try to use the small samples from 2011-2013 to compare to the peaks of other greats. His best full seasons are great seasons but for a generational talent nothing to be blown away by. His two way game/defense is also massively exaggerated. With that said his career isn’t overrated as he’s done everything a player can do and has nothing missing from his resume.

He won the Art Ross in 2013/14 by a % margin over 2nd place that was greater than any of Mario's six wins and any of Jagr's five wins.

If that isn't generational, I don't what is.

Incoming double standard in 3, 2, 1.......

 

[Michael Farkas]

you still have no response.

I only asked a clarifying question of your position. That doesn't require a response from me, does it? What if I agree with you? Now the only person on your side is illiterate...not great company.

 

[WalterLundy]

He won the Art Ross in 2013/14 by a % margin over 2nd place that was greater than any of Mario's six wins and any of Jagr's five wins.

If that isn't generational, I don't what is.

Incoming double standard in 3, 2, 1.......

2014 Ryan Getzlaf is not equivalent to 1989 Wayne Gretzky. This is why I don’t respond to you often.

 

[MadLuke]

He won the Art Ross in 2013/14 by a % margin over 2nd place that was greater than any of Mario's six wins and any of Jagr's five wins.

If that isn't generational, I don't what is.

Incoming double standard in 3, 2, 1.......

I am not sure if we ever had a more noisy and more misleading stat that the lead or trailling over the second place scorer of a specific season that was so vastly used on the Internet (VsX, reddit, etc....)

Yes 199 points Lemieux did not lead Wayne F. Gretzky by the same amount that Crosby lead over Getzlaf.....

Lemieux doubled Hall of Famer Luc Robitaille points total (99) at the 10th place that season, Crosby did beat Hall of Famer Ovechkin at 10th place by 32%.

2014 Crosby does not win the Art Ross if 1989 Gretzky play hockey and does have a very solid but nothing all time special Art Ross win (10%) if Malkin play 78 games and score 94 points.

When Jagr scored 149 he was 0% higher than the second scorer in the league because it was himself, he outscored Doug Weight at 10th place by 43%, when Yzerman scored 155 pts he was like negative 7%... that would be worse than Tyler Seguin 84 pts season in 2014 according to that metric.

 

[WalterLundy]

I only asked a clarifying question of your position. That doesn't require a response from me, does it? What if I agree with you? Now the only person on your side is illiterate...not great company.

I snapped during my clarification a bit. I probably should have only kept Crosby’s peak or best seasons in the overrated section. It’s a weird one with Sid for me at least. His career overall I have 5th but his best seasons I don’t have anywhere near the top. I’ll admit when I’m wrong so apologies for the insults.

 

[daver]

I am not sure if we ever had a more noisy and more misleading stat that the lead or trailling over the second place scorer of a specific season that was so vastly used.

Yes 199 points Lemieux did not lead Wayne F. Gretzky by the same amount that Crosby lead over Getzlaf.....

Lemieux doubled hall of famer Luc Robitaille points total at 10th place that season, Crosby did beat hall of famer Ovechkin at 10th place by 32%.

2014 Crosby does not win the ARt Ross if 1989 Gretzky play hockey and does have a solid but nothing all time special Art Ross win if Malkin play 78 games and score 94 points that year.

I was being facetious. The other poster takes great pains to see Crosby with a glass half empty lens.

Crosby was doing "generational" things in his career up until he got hit by Steckel.

His Art Ross win in 13/14 was the biggest % win since Wayne in 1991. This should be taken at 100% of its statistical value if one chooses to see his seasons from 2011 to 2013 only at their raw point value or as "samples".

That being said, it is an interesting piece of trivia.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Went with 12 seasons to match.

Pretty sure this doesn't, in any way, make it a fact that Gretzky was the better player.

 

[JackSlater]

Pretty sure this doesn't, in any way, make it a fact that Gretzky was the better player.

Generally no one is as confident that Gretzky was better than Orr than people who have seen neither play to any meaningful degree, but people who only saw Gretzky are a close second.

 

[VanIslander]

Overrated:
Patrick Kane
Sidney Crosby
Mark Messier
Eric Lindros

Underrated:
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Esposito
Jaromir Jagr
Marcel Dionne

@WalterLundy ... it's been a minute since someone dared to answer the q, back it up with reasoning, and be believeable.

I am with you 90%. I think Kane is a lesser Bathgate; though Dionne is underrated, ... compared to Forsberg?

Forsberg channels Eddie Shore & Gordie Howe, to some degree:

 

[WalterLundy]

@WalterLundy ... it's been a minute since someone dared to answer the q, back it up with reasoning, and be believeable.

I am with you 90%. I think Kane is a lesser Bathgate; though Dionne is underrated, ... compared to Forsberg?

Forsberg channels Eddie Shore & Gordie Howe, to some degree:

I was trying to go with what I thought the majority opinions are for players I’ve seen on this site and classify those as overrated and underrated. Should have just said Crosby prime seasons/two way play as opposed to just naming Crosby overrated in general. I brought up Dionne because I always see him shown as empty numbers and the example of a great offensive player who never won anything. I feel like had he been on better teams it would be different. Also as one who saw him play a bit I thought he was terrific. I’ve always been really high on Forsberg personally.

 

[VanIslander]

You were trying to go with the majority...?

You lost me there. I may agree with a crowd but i never put effort into aligning wirh the herd.

(I don't think you realize how negative a response such a comment could generate in people. I "go with" my best bud cuz we've been friends since elementary school. It ain't right but it is what it is.)

I am not an enemy. I am speaking my truth, love much of what you have to say, am not on Twitter/X, am all about Dionne's counterfactual potential. The NHL's top scorer from 1975-1985 deserves more props than he gets. But... i do think Forbs a bit better. The biggest compliment i could give Sakic is he's almost Forsberg's level (i've been skewered for decades for this take).

 

[MadLuke]

You were trying to go with the majority...?

Make sense, if you think a player is overrated or underrated, it is because you think a majority of people opinion is wrong about that player. That what I understand from the message.

How could you not ?

 

[The Panther]

Crosby has become a little over-rated in the hockey culture over the past three or four years -- but that's totally normal. When legendary players have good longevity and are getting near the end, the media and fans who've seen their whole careers tend to overrate them and laud them with every accolade possible, often beyond standards of reality or accuracy.

In Jagr's case, somewhat the same thing happened in his final years, except since he had been sort-of underappreciated in his prime and peak years, he was finally just appreciated for being himself. Some people just couldn't get over the mullet.

Lindros's career wasn't long enough and didn't have those victory-lap final seasons when everyone starts (over-)appreciating him, so he's generally remembered as having disappointed, despite his prime matching Jagr (and one season matching Lemieux).

Crosby might be somewhat over-rated right now, but it all comes out in the wash.

 

[daver]

Quote me and I can help. There is a massive literacy issue on this site but I’ll make it easy for you. Crosby’s career isn’t overrated. Certain aspects are overrated. Two things can be true at the same time here. His peak never really happened (first half of 2007 being equivalent to his 2011 41 game sample can be brought up but I’ll save it) and yet people try to use the small samples from 2011-2013 to compare to the peaks of other greats. His best full seasons are great seasons but for a generational talent nothing to be blown away by. His two way game/defense is also massively exaggerated. With that said his career isn’t overrated as he’s done everything a player can do and has nothing missing from his resume.

His peak happened, he just didn't get to play that many games at his peak.

If you want to use 2007 as a gauge to pace out his 2011 season, go right ahead. He was at a 1.67 PPG at Game 39 in 06/07 and finished at 1.52. He was at a 1.67 PPG through Game 39 in 10/11.
If he finishes at a 1.52 PPG in 10/11, that would have been a bit better in terms of statistical domination vs. his peers(Top 10/25/50) than Jagr's peak season in 98/99.

The exact same thing can be said about his 2013 season if paced out using 2007 as a guage. He again wins the Art Ross in a dominant fashion that is superior to Jagr's 98/99 season.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this: Thoughts on Crosby's completely cherry-picked best stretch of hockey

 

[JackSlater]

Crosby has become a little over-rated in the hockey culture over the past three or four years -- but that's totally normal. When legendary players have good longevity and are getting near the end, the media and fans who've seen their whole careers tend to overrate them and laud them with every accolade possible, often beyond standards of reality or accuracy.

In Jagr's case, somewhat the same thing happened in his final years, except since he had been sort-of underappreciated in his prime and peak years, he was finally just appreciated for being himself. Some people just couldn't get over the mullet.

Lindros's career wasn't long enough and didn't have those victory-lap final seasons when everyone starts (over-)appreciating him, so he's generally remembered as having disappointed, despite his prime matching Jagr (and one season matching Lemieux).

Crosby might be somewhat over-rated right now, but it all comes out in the wash.

I think Crosby will fall a bit long term in terms of perception. People who watched his career can more or less grasp how good Crosby was or wasn't, but in the future you'll have to dig a bit beyond trophies to figure out how good Crosby was and it won't be worth it to most. Hurts that McDavid has come along and looks like he'll clearly pass him historically. I don't think that Ovechkin will fall as much because the he'll end up with the goal record, while Crosby won't have a novelty that sticks out.

I agree about Jagr mostly settling where he belongs and Lindros being underrated.

 

[Albatros]

McDavid will need equally iconic moments to pass Crosby long term, most hockey fans aren't stat watchers or care too much about individual awards. Ovechkin will really need the goal record as well despite his one cup, 2nd place won't do much.