Your Mt.Rushmore of OVERRATED and Mt.Rushmore of UNDERRATED ... all time

[MadLuke]

but in the future you'll have to dig a bit beyond trophies to figure out

What could help in that regard, Sakic or even more so Yzerman, which could be natural comparable for the future audience.

Those are low individual trophy count wise versus what player they were and the career they had an could force-make an habit of that process.

Trophy counting and top 10 finish, PKane > Yzerman cleanly enough

I think the old veteran that had maybe a single really subpart season or none with a long farewell tour is not a bad point.

Paul Coffey did not had that, becoming a 6 teams in 5 years type of journeyman not a clear top pair (regular season at least) D anymore for a little while and could have become underrated versus aging just a little bit better retiring as a red wings. Sakic maybe in some way, but the retirement was so abrupt, that he did not fully... same for MacInnis.

McDavid will need equally iconic moments to pass Crosby long term,

That was maybe true at some point in the past (could see how much dynasties player ranked high and the Marcel Dionne had an hard time), McDavid will have played all his game in the HD era and will have incredible Forsberg like montage (but in better quality), ridiculous numbers, a global sport where fans are more often fans of player than local team (thus winning or not the cup not that big of a deal).

As always it will depends on what the player right after do or not (what if Esposito record do not get trumped right away by Gretzky), if McDavid never win the cups or a big tourney for Canada and the next one do right after.. maybe.

 

[JackSlater]

What could help in that regard, Sakic or even more so Yzerman, which could be natural comparable for the future audience.

Those are low individual trophy count wise versus what player they were and the career they had an could force-make an habit of that process.

Trophy counting and top 10 finish, PKane > Yzerman cleanly enough

I think the old veteran that had maybe a single really subpart season or none with a long farewell tour is not a bad point.

Paul Coffey did not had that, becoming a 6 teams in 5 years type of journeyman not a clear top pair (regular season at least) D anymore for a little while and could have become underrated versus aging just a little bit better retiring as a red wings. Sakic maybe in some way, but the retirement was so abrupt, that he did not fully... same for MacInnis.



That was maybe true at some point in the past (could see how much dynasties player ranked high and the Marcel Dionne had an hard time), McDavid will have played all his game in the HD era and will have incredible Forsberg like montage (but in better quality), ridiculous numbers, a global sport where fans are more often fans of player than local team (thus winning or not the cup not that big of a deal).

As always it will depends on what the player right after do or not (what if Esposito record do not get trumped right away by Gretzky), if McDavid never win the cups or a big tourney for Canada and the next one do right after.. maybe.

Yzerman is underrated compared to where he was at when he played. You could say that someone like Beliveau maintained his status despite a low number of trophies relative to his accomplishments, but he had a ton of Stanley Cups plus the hockey focused Montreal media to protect his legacy. I don't see Crosby dropping like a stone but he will drop a bit in the future because a quick glance at the bullet points undersells him.

 

[TheLegend27]

He won the Art Ross in 2013/14 by a % margin over 2nd place that was greater than any of Mario's six wins and any of Jagr's five wins.

If that isn't generational, I don't what is.

Incoming double standard in 3, 2, 1.......

Funny how you conveniently ignore the asterisks behind that “historic” Art Ross win. It’s easy to forget that the top 6 PPG scorers all missed more game time than Crosby that year, bringing up his % margin. Had Malkin(60 games)played the same # of games Crosby played he’d be second at 96 pts instead of Getzlaf at 87(who himself played 3 less games than Crosby). So much for the highest margin Art Ross win since 1991.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Man, Crosby gets double dipped for missing time due to injuries...and then, when he's healthy, he gets dunked on because others were hurt. Can't win for losin' haha

 

[Professor What]

Man, Crosby gets double dipped for missing time due to injuries...and then, when he's healthy, he gets dunked on because others were hurt. Can't win for losin' haha

What's frustrating to me about discussions on Crosby is that it feels like people are either all in invested in trying to pump his career or they're all about dragging him down. He's a guy that could make either the overrated or underrated list depending on whose opinion you're listening too.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

What's frustrating to me about discussions on Crosby is that it feels like people are either all in invested in trying to pump his career or they're all about dragging him down. He's a guy that could make either the overrated or underrated list depending on whose opinion you're listening too.

That's an HFBoards feature for all players, to be honest - you have to pick a side and DAMMIT you have to stay on that side as hard as you can.

I received direct messages from a Brodeur/Hasek thread where I tried to bring data into the discussion a few separate times. One person called me a Sabres homer, and one called me a Devils homer.

A third one called me an asshole, although I'm not sure it was related to the thread now that I think about it.

 

[Albatros]

That was maybe true at some point in the past (could see how much dynasties player ranked high and the Marcel Dionne had an hard time), McDavid will have played all his game in the HD era and will have incredible Forsberg like montage (but in better quality), ridiculous numbers, a global sport where fans are more often fans of player than local team (thus winning or not the cup not that big of a deal).

As always it will depends on what the player right after do or not (what if Esposito record do not get trumped right away by Gretzky), if McDavid never win the cups or a big tourney for Canada and the next one do right after.. maybe.

I'm not sure he quite has that level of universal fandom though, if we look for example at jersey sales he's nowhere near Crosby, and Bedard seems to be emerging as the new poster boy.

 

[MadLuke]

Funny how you conveniently ignore the asterisks behind that “historic” Art Ross win. It’s easy to forget that the top 6 PPG scorers all missed more game time than Crosby that year, bringing up his % margin. Had Malkin(60 games)played the same # of games Crosby played he’d be second at 96 pts instead of Getzlaf at 87(who himself played 3 less games than Crosby). So much for the highest margin Art Ross win since 1991.

One way to see it, Patrick Kane 2016 Art Ross win-margin was in no way less impressive.

he did it like this:
Points Per Game

1.	Patrick Kane • CHI	1.29
2.	Jamie Benn • DAL	1.09
3.	Sidney Crosby • PIT	1.06
4.	Evgeni Malkin • PIT	1.02
5.	Tyler Seguin • DAL	1.01
6.	Erik Karlsson • OTT	1.00

vs

Points Per Game

1.	Sidney Crosby • PIT	1.30
2.	Evgeni Malkin • PIT	1.20
3.	Ryan Getzlaf • ANA	1.13
4.	John Tavares • NYI	1.12
5.	Taylor Hall • EDM	1.07

Outscored 10th place Panarin by 37.6%, vs Crosby 31.6% lead over 10th place. Was just 2 season after, i.e. hard to use it has a sign of being generational.

I'm not sure he quite has that level of universal fandom though, if we look for example at jersey sales he's nowhere near Crosby, and Bedard seems to be emerging as the new poster boy.

True, he could be low fanbase wise, but it is possible for signature wins to stop being a big deal in hockey (or like McDavid did a bit of a reset on what people thought was possible to do in 2021 and 2023, the last playoff, etc... maybe someone will change that vision and if that player appear soon that could affect things. But the way things re going, McDavid winning it feel very likely.

 

[Michael Farkas]

What's frustrating to me about discussions on Crosby is that it feels like people are either all in invested in trying to pump his career or they're all about dragging him down. He's a guy that could make either the overrated or underrated list depending on whose opinion you're listening too.

Yeah, it's almost political (at least, in the U.S.) - "oh, the guy in the blue tie said that? I love it! Whatever it is and I'll defend that other guy's opinion to the death!"

I often try to "balance" a player's rep where ever I can. Like, in the aforementioned Brodeur/Hasek thread, I immediately voted Brodeur. I'm not sure if I even believe that...I just know that it's going to be so overwhelmingly Hasek that it's not representative of the reality of the situation haha

With Crosby, I don't know what to do anymore. I try to go against the whole "he was always a great two-way player" narrative that popped up. But then some folks come along and make it sound like he was sitting on top of the opponent's net the whole time, but that's not true either...especially in the playoffs. Also, when we've had defensive coaches, he's been at least good defensively - last year he actually deserved some Selke love, which I haven't thought for the vast majority of his career.

But then it looks like I'm falling for the narrative that he's always been doing this haha

It's tough to figure out how to balance him because it's so crazy in each direction sometimes. And the most concerning part of all is...we've all seen this guy 600 million times. The Penguins are always on TV, he has over 200 playoff games, he's been in four Stanley Cups, he's been in the Olympics, I think he was even at an all star game once - no matter what type of fan, no matter where you're from, no matter who you root for, you must have seen that guy...and still the opinions are all over the place in various aspects of his game.

I can't even tell what's "worse" any more...folks not watching a player, just reading about him, and developing a canonized consensus or the opposite haha - they both pose challenges.

 

[JackSlater]

I think that Crosby the player is a bit underrated, Crosby's career is pretty properly rated. There is a sense, not quite to Toews level but reminiscent of that, that some people just really want to rebel against how Crosby was presented 15+ years ago. It makes a him an annoying player to discuss.

 

[VanIslander]

^^^^
You are right in that McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin belong in the same paragraph of the book of hockey history. Are any of those ever undervalued? They are among the foothills of Mt.Rushmore.

This is the ALT-mountain, the UNDER or OVER valued guys (those three are at best somewhere in the top 10 outside the top 3 clearly).

 

[daver]

Funny how you conveniently ignore the asterisks behind that “historic” Art Ross win. It’s easy to forget that the top 6 PPG scorers all missed more game time than Crosby that year, bringing up his % margin. Had Malkin(60 games)played the same # of games Crosby played he’d be second at 96 pts instead of Getzlaf at 87(who himself played 3 less games than Crosby). So much for the highest margin Art Ross win since 1991.

If PPG is relevant then Crosby has "generational" PPG showings in three straight seasons.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Had Crosby played the same # of games as the points leader, Stamkos with 245, he would had 341 points and would have been a plus 130

On a more serious note,

My original point was to question the premise that Crosby did not hit higher level in 2010/11 to 2013 than he had before or after those three seasons and was not "generational" in so far that he never dominated the competition like Jagr or McDavid did.

The majority position is that he did reach a per game offensive level that is among the best of the non Big 4 but simply had terrible luck with injuries and with the timing of those injuries.

After being the most decorated pre-draft CHL prospect of all-time, he was having a generational career up until Game 40 in his 6th season with a career resume by age 22 that was Top 3/5 all -time.

What's frustrating to me about discussions on Crosby is that it feels like people are either all in invested in trying to pump his career or they're all about dragging him down. He's a guy that could make either the overrated or underrated list depending on whose opinion you're listening too.

Cannot stand people like that. It's like they have zero self awareness.

 

[57special]

Here's an inflammatory one:

Mt. Rushmore overrated (for HF) are Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr

This board uses the parlance "big four" like it's inconceivable that anyone could be better (I'm not even talking about like McDavid or upcoming players being better), which in itself, sure I can get around.

The thing is, the legend of these players certainly seems to have grown since they played. Certainly seems to be the case for Gretzky and Lemieux, and also I'm familiar enough with the Original Six Wings to know what Howe was thought of then vs now (not as familiar/interested regarding Orr though when I looked up some stuff on Espo from back then and yeah same inflation seems to be happening for Orr).

You'd think with the way people talk about these guys here, they'd be winning the cup singlehandedly every year... just not the case lol

couldn't agree less, and i'm old enough to have seen all of them play, though not Howe in his prime.

 

[Albatros]

The whole "big four" concept only exists in North America, mostly just Canada really.

 

[jigglysquishy]

For whatever it's worth, multiple Europeans took part in the last top 100 and the only person to not adhere to the Big Four was a Canadian.

 

[Albatros]

The HFBoards has its own microcosm that is very heavily North American in general and Canadian in particular, any Europeans here (myself included) will take that for granted.

 

[VanIslander]

Agreed @Albatros.
But at least 33% of Canadians on the History board of HfBoards... value Europeans a lot.

In contrast, I think us Canadians undervalue American players in hockey history. Heck, the main board, too.

I ain't got a Yankee bone in my body. But herald .... Kane, Suter,... Blake Wheeler is perhaps the most deserving underhyped HHOFer in the game today, and Zach Parise surpassed his dad's excellence but is crickets outside his team's market.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Overrated...
Orr (LQ), Richard (LQ), Dryden (LQ and best D of the 70's) and Messier (as a leader)

Underrated...
Hasek (many people think he's not the GOAT 'tender), Iginla (Dead Puck & underrated leader), Serge Savard (great defensive defenceman overshadowed by Robinson), Orland Kurtenbach (never gets mentioned in great hockey name threads)

 

[DitchMarner]

Overrated...
Orr (LQ), Richard (LQ), Dryden (LQ and best D of the 70's) and Messier (as a leader)

Underrated...
Hasek (many people think he's not the GOAT 'tender), Iginla (Dead Puck & underrated leader), Serge Savard (great defensive defenceman overshadowed by Robinson), Orland Kurtenbach (never gets mentioned in great hockey name threads)

How so?

 

[VanIslander]

Overrated...
Orr (LQ), Richard (LQ), Dryden (LQ and best D of the 70's) and Messier (as a leader)

Underrated...
Hasek (many people think he's not the GOAT 'tender), Iginla (Dead Puck & underrated leader), Serge Savard (great defensive defenceman

Overrated... you say Orr, Dryden, Messier....
Underrated you say... Hasek, Iginla, Savard

EVERY fiber of my body is pulling in different directions.
I am in a connipsis.

 

[The Panther]

Overrated...
Orr (LQ), Richard (LQ), Dryden (LQ and best D of the 70's) and Messier (as a leader)

Underrated...
Hasek (many people think he's not the GOAT 'tender), Iginla (Dead Puck & underrated leader), Serge Savard (great defensive defenceman overshadowed by Robinson), Orland Kurtenbach (never gets mentioned in great hockey name threads)

How can you "rate" leadership from watching games on TV?

 

[David Bruce Banner]

How so?

Orr was great, no doubt. But I think he benefitted by being the right guy, in the right place, at the right time… the time when LQ tanked.

How can you "rate" leadership from watching games on TV?

I can’t tell what goes on in the locker room, but you can see, at least to some extent, how much their teammates and opponents appear to respect them.

 

[Albatros]

I can’t tell what goes on in the locker room, but you can see, at least to some extent, how much their teammates and opponents appear to respect them.

 

[edog37]

McDavid will need equally iconic moments to pass Crosby long term, most hockey fans aren't stat watchers or care too much about individual awards. Ovechkin will really need the goal record as well despite his one cup, 2nd place won't do much.

And as is becoming perfectly clear, McDavid simply can’t achieve that type of greatness. He had a shot this year in the Final, but when it mattered most, he disappeared in Games 6 & 7.

 

[MadLuke]

I can’t tell what goes on in the locker room, but you can see, at least to some extent, how much their teammates and opponents appear to respect them.

And in case of Messier, we did hear quite a lot of great things I think.

Damphousse for example, when he played with him in the world cup of 1996 said something paraphrasing: With him in the lockeroom I quickly realized why we did lose that spring against the Rangers.