Your Mt.Rushmore of OVERRATED and Mt.Rushmore of UNDERRATED ... all time

VanIslander

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In a world with Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux ... it's hard not to think a chiseled rock mountain face of the sport worthy of being climbed.

With ropes on Mt.Rushmore,... Crosby, Hasek, McDavid... i'd add guys like Shore but back in the day they'd just tell you to f off.
 

VanIslander

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Lindros has nothing on Yzerman, Forsberg, Dionne.

Fortitude.

Who is not running into the dressing room?

You know you pansy!
 

Boxscore

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Jan 22, 2007
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I thought of another criminally underrated player... Jyrki Lumme. In fact, he's part of one of the worst trades ever made by the Montreal Canadiens. I believe they sent him to Vancouver for a 2nd rounder?
 
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DitchMarner

TheGlitchintheSwitch
Jul 21, 2017
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I'm not sure about Mats Sundin at this point. I feel Matthews is a better player and he obviously is faring much better in Hart voting.

But if I was asked to choose between prime Sundin and current Matthews for a playoff run, I might take the former. I feel his Hart record underrates him, especially in relation to AM.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I'm not sure about Mats Sundin at this point. I feel Matthews is a better player and he obviously is faring much better in Hart voting.

But if I was asked to choose between prime Sundin and current Matthews for a playoff run, I might take the former. I feel his Hart record underrates him, especially in relation to AM.
I could be convinced of this. Realistically Matthews is probably a bit better... haven't liked what I've seen from him at any point when he plays games that matter. I suspect he's easier than most stars to plan against because he isn't very dynamic. Hart voting distorts things, Matthews is certainly overrated by Hart voters, just look at the 2022 gift he received. The media surrounding Toronto seems to have changed. Before the lockout the media was bitter around Toronto in the post Clark/Gilmour years, seemingly because they remembered better times. At this point most of the Toronto media seems like fans.

I'll say this, I do not think that Toronto does worse with peak Sundin in now than it has with Matthews. Possibly better.
 
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Boxscore

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I completely agree about Sundin vs. Matthews. First of all, players like Sundin don't grow on trees in today's NHL. How many hulking centers currently exist who are offensively dominant, defensively sound, clockwork consistent, and physical with a bit of an edge?

With his size, skillset, and leadership package, Sundin would be a unicorn for the Leafs today. Sure, Matthews is a better goal scorer and perhaps a more aggressive backchecker (when motivated) but his resume only pertains to the regular season.

Sundin spent a good portion of his early career playing in the DPE and alongside a meh supporting cast. This was also pre-cap when the Nords and Leafs weren't ripe with talent. Unfortunately for Mats, he was traded by Quebec right as they were about to relocate and emerge as a powerhouse.

However, if you take a 25 year old Sundin and magically swap him out today with Matthews, he would be an elite, franchise center surrounded by high-end talent in a cap league. And, due to the other players on the Leafs, I feel Sundin would be a much “better fit” considering the Leafs already have multiple soft, offensive stars.

I also think Sundin today would be an annual 100+ point threat, similar to the production of someone like Matthew Tkachuk who had back-to-back 100+ seasons before lengthy and physically draining Cup runs. Sundin might not out point the Edmonton guys, MacKinnon or Kucherov, but either does Matthews.

Whatever gap in goalscoring exists between the two, Sundin makes up for it with leadership, durability, edge, dawg, and clutch play. Stylistically, there's no player today who compares to Sundin. He's sort of a blend between Kopitar, Pettersson and Barkov. And that player may not score 55-65 goals but they would still be an elite 90-105 point producer who can carry a team as a top 1C playing in all situations.

The biggest issue with Matthews is himself, imho. Once he got a taste of NHL success he morphed from a high-energy, clean-cut kid like MacKinnon into a wacky character with body tats, a cheesy mustache, purses, and an odd connection with Justin Bieber. He focused more on maximizing every contract and embracing his celebrity status than focusing on how he could carry his team over the stack of playoff failures.

Sundin, on the other hand, was the ultimate leader and team guy. He would go through wall for the Toronto Maple Leafs. He wore the crest with pride. He took the job serious and had a no-nonsense approach to how he handled his business. And he wasn't soft.. far from it... he was horse you could build around and count on regardless of the game or situation.

For the last few years I simply haven't “trusted” Matthews to be that guy. I expect a ton of goals and regular season excitement from him (and he sure delivers on that) but I have zero faith in him being able to lift the Leafs to the promised land because there's always the fear that the bottom will fall out with him... be it a playoff no-show or an injury at the worst time... there's just always a reason he (and the team) comes up short.

Quite honestly, I think it's the way Matthews is made. It's in his DNA. I think he's built for a stress-free regular season and not for battle when the games matter most. There's no level up with Matthews. Sundin was the opposite in ways. Look at how he dominated on the International stage and the intensity you'd get from him when needed.

My Spidey sense tells me the Leafs would be (and would have been) a better and more successful “team” with Sundin today. They might not be as flashy or exciting but they would be more well-rounded and fare much better in the playoffs.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Didn't for example Orr rely on sacrificing his knee just the same? If anything, hypothetically Lindros could have been the same player and kept his head up more whereas Orr would have had to become a different player in order to avoid injuries.
Orr would of been fine with today’s knee medical practices.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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My conspiracy theory about Matthews? Based on publicly available information, it looks like his tax advisors have structured his affairs in a way that (effectively) allows him to pay income tax using Arizona's tax rates, rather than Ontario's. There's a large spread, and my ballpark calculation suggests that this saves him $1M USD annually in income taxes.

The approach that's being used could be challenged by CRA. One of the biggest obstacles would be if Matthews spends too much time in Ontario. I wonder if that's one of the reasons he's struggled in the playoffs. A deep playoff run could challenge this tax strategy and potentially cost him millions of dollars over the course of his career.

(To be clear, this is a conspiracy theory, and I'm sure that Matthews isn't intentionally playing poorly in the postseason. But I wonder if, at a subconscious level, that influences him).
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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My conspiracy theory about Matthews? Based on publicly available information, it looks like his tax advisors have structured his affairs in a way that (effectively) allows him to pay income tax using Arizona's tax rates, rather than Ontario's. There's a large spread, and my ballpark calculation suggests that this saves him $1M USD annually in income taxes.

The approach that's being used could be challenged by CRA. One of the biggest obstacles would be if Matthews spends too much time in Ontario. I wonder if that's one of the reasons he's struggled in the playoffs. A deep playoff run could challenge this tax strategy and potentially cost him millions of dollars over the course of his career.

(To be clear, this is a conspiracy theory, and I'm sure that Matthews isn't intentionally playing poorly in the postseason. But I wonder if, at a subconscious level, that influences him).

The most realistic conspiracy theories are the one's based on money.

So, I'm buying it.
 

VanIslander

20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
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In the last top 100, the post 1967 centres. Determined by when majority of prime was.

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Crosby
4. Messier
5. Esposito
6. Clarke
7. Trottier
8. Sakic
9. Yzerman
10. Forsberg
11. Malkin
12. Dionne
13. Fedorov
14. Thornton
15. Lindros

He's basically in a tier of his own in terms of lack of prime games played. Malkin and Forsberg jump out too.

Prime on prime he only jumps a few guys.
You pimp Crosby, Sakic more.
Yzerman, Forsberg less.

I know what alley Conn Smythe & I are happily walking out of.

(Clarke over Trottier sticks in my craw... agitation vs. resilience.)
 

Mike C

Registered User
Jan 24, 2022
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Here's an inflammatory one:

Mt. Rushmore overrated (for HF) are Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr

This board uses the parlance "big four" like it's inconceivable that anyone could be better (I'm not even talking about like McDavid or upcoming players being better), which in itself, sure I can get around.

The thing is, the legend of these players certainly seems to have grown since they played. Certainly seems to be the case for Gretzky and Lemieux, and also I'm familiar enough with the Original Six Wings to know what Howe was thought of then vs now (not as familiar/interested regarding Orr though when I looked up some stuff on Espo from back then and yeah same inflation seems to be happening for Orr).

You'd think with the way people talk about these guys here, they'd be winning the cup singlehandedly every year... just not the case lol
It's not that we don't think there couldn't be anyone better, we just think there ISN'T anyone better
 
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Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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Here's an inflammatory one:

Mt. Rushmore overrated (for HF) are Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr
lol, no
Go read the up on the hockey history forum and the deep dive into rankings.
It’s not just there it’s a consensus among hockey fans.
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
25,024
12,693
My conspiracy theory about Matthews? Based on publicly available information, it looks like his tax advisors have structured his affairs in a way that (effectively) allows him to pay income tax using Arizona's tax rates, rather than Ontario's. There's a large spread, and my ballpark calculation suggests that this saves him $1M USD annually in income taxes.

The approach that's being used could be challenged by CRA. One of the biggest obstacles would be if Matthews spends too much time in Ontario. I wonder if that's one of the reasons he's struggled in the playoffs. A deep playoff run could challenge this tax strategy and potentially cost him millions of dollars over the course of his career.

(To be clear, this is a conspiracy theory, and I'm sure that Matthews isn't intentionally playing poorly in the postseason. But I wonder if, at a subconscious level, that influences him).
His 95% signing bonus, means even less tax than the Arizona rate.
 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Dec 6, 2017
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Overrated
Cam Neely
Sidney Crosby
Eric Lindros
Todd Bertuzzi

These were the most overhyped players of all-time. To be fair, Crosby eventually lived up to the hype, but the others were puffed up because coaches, media and the fans had rabid man-crushes on "power forwards" during that era.

Underrated
Jari Kurri
Phil Esposito
Marcel Dionne
Barry Pederson

It's incredible decades later to still see presumably knowledgeable hockey fans making the crap "Gretzky/Orr factor" arguments about Kurri and Esposito instead of judging their accomplishments on their own merits: Christ, they did what they did, that should be good enough. Downgrading these guys always means conveniently ignoring their success before or after being attached to Gretzky and Orr. Dionne gets a massive downgrade due to a lack of team playoff success, but in terms of his actual skill and value he's been vastly underrated, particularly given the fact that he played on terrible teams and endured the most brutal travel schedule of any star in the sport during his peak. "High-scoring era! Adjusted stats!" they wail, the same guys who say "the game changed so rapidly in the mid-80s, it got so much faster!" seem to forget a 33-year old Dionne in 85 hitting 126 points is a standout feat amongst his generational peers, most of whom were done or in decline by the time they hit that age. Pederson is the forgotten star of the 80s and only now seen as the dud in the Neely deal, who I believe was tracking to be Yzerman-level and would've emerged to take a cemented spot in the top 2-5 centers of the decade had he stayed healthy. He proved himself to be an elite two-way player and an incredible playoff performer right out of the gate, one of the most overlooked "what ifs" ever.
 
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FerrisRox

"Wanna go, Prettyboy?"
Sep 17, 2003
20,677
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Overrated:

Mark Recchi - played with Mario and made stats to get him into the HOF and then played for Montreal and he couldn’t get the puck into the zone

This is a weird take.

Recchi had an outstanding 1990-91 season in Pittsburgh with 114 points, but Mario only played 26 games that season, and not on a line with Recchi, who was on The Option Line.

Recchi was traded to Philadelphia after that and had 123 and 107 point seasons.

With the Canadiens he was at or very close to a point a game for the first four seasons and only in his last year - on a truly terrible Canadiens roster - did he score poorly with 47 points in 61 games. And despite getting traded back to Philadelphia that season, he still ended up as the Canadiens leading scorer.
 
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SealsFan

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May 3, 2009
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How about Brad Park for underrated? Seems he was always in the shadow of Orr, Potvin or Robinson during his tenure, even though he played in media-centric cities. Yes, Hall of Fame and multiple All Star selections but seems like he would be mentioned second behind any of the above.

Walt Tkaczuk also for underrated. Two-way second line center, strong defense and penalty killer.
 
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Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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How about Brad Park for underrated? Seems he was always in the shadow of Orr, Potvin or Robinson during his tenure, even though he played in media-centric cities. Yes, Hall of Fame and multiple All Star selections but seems like he would be mentioned second behind any of the above.

Walt Tkaczuk also for underrated. Two-way second line center, strong defense and penalty killer.
Never thought Park or Potvin were under-rated, Robinson maybe,
Not sure why you went with a larger font, no-one else does that.
 

carjackmalone

Registered User
Dec 30, 2023
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My list underrated

Tim Kerr
Rick Martin
Charlie Simmer
Mike Rogers
Danny Gare
Reed Larson
Gary Suter
Dave Taylor
John Tonelli
Rick Middleton
Paul Reinhart
Dennis Maruk
 
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Mike C

Registered User
Jan 24, 2022
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Indian Trail, N.C.
How about Brad Park for underrated? Seems he was always in the shadow of Orr, Potvin or Robinson during his tenure, even though he played in media-centric cities. Yes, Hall of Fame and multiple All Star selections but seems like he would be mentioned second behind any of the above.

Walt Tkaczuk also for underrated. Two-way second line center, strong defense and penalty killer.
In keeping with the NY Metropolitan theme

Both underrated.

Chico Resch--the face of 2 franchises for a long while each

Bryan Trottier--one of the most complete players in NHL history and the most indespensible of the Dyansty teams. If that isn't enough, he won 2 more cups with Penguins

I'll also kick in Bobby Clarke as underrated. A lot of players from the old days become more underappreciated as time goes on
 

GRob83

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Feb 3, 2010
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Overrated:
Maurice Richard

Underrated:
Peter Bondra

The only 2 players in NHL History with more than 500 Goals and less than 500 Assists. One was part of a dynasty surrounded by numerous Hall of Famers and the other was the only goal scorer on a team that consistently made the playoffs and whose prime was in the dead-puck era. From 94-04 only Jagr had more goals than Bondra.
 

MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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The only 2 players in NHL History with more than 500 Goals and less than 500 Assists. One was part of a dynasty surrounded by numerous Hall of Famers
To note there was around 1.5 assist per goal during richard career on the Montreal team. During his peak it could have been under 1.3 some season.

Bondra played during the 1.7 assist per goal modern era.

Richard could very well had 500 assists (or really close) if they had video replay and tracked them aggressively like today, he recorded less than 500.
 
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BigDucky

Registered User
May 30, 2008
185
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Downriver, MI
Overrated:
Maurice Richard

Underrated:
Peter Bondra

The only 2 players in NHL History with more than 500 Goals and less than 500 Assists. One was part of a dynasty surrounded by numerous Hall of Famers and the other was the only goal scorer on a team that consistently made the playoffs and whose prime was in the dead-puck era. From 94-04 only Jagr had more goals than Bondra.
Also, one finished top 2 in overall points (5x) more than the other one finished top 10 (0x).
 
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The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
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Overrated:
Maurice Richard
Yeah, this is wrong. Maurice Richard is getting underrated now.

See the contemporary "monthly leaders" thread that spans NHL history and you'll see Richard up among the top four or five players of all time.

Also, Richard wasn't constantly surrounded by Hall of Famers as you imply. When Montreal won its 5-straight Cups from 1956 to 1960, Richard was mostl past his prime already (though he was still a playoff hero as late as 1958). When Richard joined the Canadiens, they sucked, then they got really really good near war's end (partly due to other clubs' losing too many players), then they sucked again, then they got really good, then averaged out, then the 5-year dynasty.

People tend to want to over-simplify things like you did, but the reality is always more nuanced.

Anyway, Richard is there with Gretzky and a couple others as the greatest playoff performer in history. Also retired as the #1 goal scorer in history. No way he's overrated.
 
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MadLuke

Registered User
Jan 18, 2011
10,323
5,901
Yeah, this is wrong. Maurice Richard is getting underrated now.
I was wondering who would have the biggest gap between their contemporaneous reputation at the time from people watching them versus where they are now in the negative.

Esposito and Richard ? He went from a fixture in the group battling for the 5th best player ever title conversation from out of the top 20 of some in the last 15 years it seems.

Esposito was one of the great that turned into a product of Orr and weak era in the eyes of many.

Maybe Lafleur ? Back in that era 6 great years (after a great juniors career) and you're gone was not seen as too short I presume, when you always go late in the playoff and it is year after year, feel longer.
 
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