Your Mt.Rushmore of OVERRATED and Mt.Rushmore of UNDERRATED ... all time

[MadLuke]

Lindros was basically at a 50-goal, 100 point pace his first 5 years in the league.

That would be underselling him a bit 93-97 was quite high scoring, he scored at a 0.65 gpg and 1.47 ppg pace his first 5 years (playing just under 300 games)

That a 50 goals-120 point by 82 pace.

Fedorov-Francis-Messier in that era scored at 100 points pace, Jagr-Lindros was a tier above them.

 

[K Fleur]

If only Lindros had spent more time focusing on getting to 50 goals and 120 points a season and less time on body slamming guys like Rob DiMaio..

 

[Dale53130]

That would be underselling him a bit 93-97 was quite high scoring, he scored at a 0.65 gpg and 1.47 ppg pace his first 5 years (playing just under 300 games)

That a 50 goals-120 point by 82 pace.

Fedorov-Francis-Messier in that era scored at 100 points pace, Jagr-Lindros was a tier above them.

I meant as his floor. And he's not your average 100 point guy either, as he's doing about as much as a person could do aside from putting up numbers.

Looking at Mario's first three seasons next to Lindros', I think without knowing how the next few seasons (beyond that) would unfold for Lindros, he was a better player. Yes, Mario is beating him in PPG, but Lindros is beating him everywhere else, making up for the difference in scoring. Not to mention that the Flyers were relevant by Lindros' 2nd season going forward.

Both players were targeted, but it always felt like there was a bounty to be had taking Lindros down. And there were many players with nothing to lose, trying to make a name for themself.

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Overrated:
Coffey
Ozolinsh
Crosby
Turgeon
Heatley
Brodeur

Underrated:
Gartner
Fetisov
Recchi
Forsberg
Numminen
Bobrovsky

 

[MadLuke]

I meant as his floor.

Well it depends what we mean by 100 pts pace, by 82 games is maybe a bit litteral (player does not that often play 82 games), maybe someone has 75-78 games in mind to leave some room, I tend to do a rought 100 pts pace to be around ~1.25 ppg

In Lindros first 5 season, outside the rookie one (where he scored at a 100 points pace)

1993-94 NHL 1.49 (3rd)

1994-95 NHL 1.52 (1st)

1995-96 NHL 1.58 (3rd)

1996-97 NHL 1.52 (2nd)

His floor was closer to 1.50 ppg (120 pts pace) than 1.25 (100 pts), would peak Lindros been a 100 pts floor pace guy in a relatively high scoring era like the nhl was from 93 to 97, while missing a lot of games and not winning anything, he would not be worth talking about, scoring like Jagr pace while tilting physically the ice like he did is a large part of what made him write his name in history.

Not to mention that the Flyers were relevant by Lindros' 2nd season going forward.

That would be a bit unfair, they were a .494 Lindros rookie year, .476 his second year and a .469 the year before the trade... He did not arrive in the usual number one overall situation.

Penguins were a .281-.238 worst of all time category team before Lemieux arrive, uo to .475 his second year like Lindros flyers.

 

[Dale53130]

That would be a bit unfair, they were a .494 Lindros rookie year, .476 his second year and a .469 the year before the trade... He did not arrive in the usual number one overall situation.

Penguins were a .281-.238 worst of all time category team before Lemieux arrive, uo to .475 his second year like Lindros flyers.

That's true.

That's sloppy on my part. I thought they had made the playoffs his 2nd year going forward.

Well it depends what we mean by 100 pts pace, by 82 games is maybe a bit litteral (player does not that often play 82 games), maybe someone has 75-78 games in mind to leave some room, I tend to do a rought 100 pts pace to be around ~1.25 ppg

In Lindros first 5 season, outside the rookie one (where he scored at a 100 points pace)

1993-94 NHL 1.49 (3rd)

1994-95 NHL 1.52 (1st)

1995-96 NHL 1.58 (3rd)

1996-97 NHL 1.52 (2nd)

His floor was closer to 1.50 ppg (120 pts pace) than 1.25 (100 pts), would peak Lindros been a 100 pts floor pace guy in a relatively high scoring era like the nhl was from 93 to 97, while missing a lot of games and not winning anything, he would not be worth talking about, scoring like Jagr pace while tilting physically the ice like he did is a large part of what made him write his name in history.

You're (clearly) making a better argument, than I am, as far as his being underrated. I'm not clear if you're making the point that he's underrated, overrated, or neither.

If we're lining up their first 5 years in the league against one another, Lindros is more impressive than Jagr at that point (IMO). If we're isolating '93-'97, I still think Lindros is edging out Jagr (on a per game basis), because there's more to hockey than just point totals. Also, Jagr is playing with Francis 5v5, behind Lemieux's line, who's more polarizing. I'm not going to ignore someone like Bernie Nicholls in '88-'89 putting up ridiculous numbers playing directly behind Gretzky, in a similar scenario, while playing on the same line with another HOF player (Robitaille/Francis). Jagr's greater than Nicholls, yes, but Nicholls was talented, and you could see how much it benefit's a 2nd line center playing directly behind the best (or 2nd best) player in the league; and arguably of All-Time.

I love Rod Brind'Amour, but he's the 2nd line guy, and he's more freed up playing behind Lindros, under those circumstances. Jagr couldn't land in a better spot, to get his reps in, be in the lab (on that killer power play), expediting his growth, being well insulated, and having every opportunity to blossom into (likely) the best player that he could be. Playing with and behind Lemieux, with all of those great players earlier on, having them to lean on, was him being in an ideal situation.

Lindros, was thrust into being the next guy to carry the league, under management that didn't do enough to protect him, to let him grow over time, and help him understand that he didn't need to play like he's trying to hit a grand slam every time he stepped up to the plate (so to speak).

If there was ever a guy since the early '90s until now, that I think could have cracked the Big-4, perhaps even there being a narrow path where he could have challenged for that #1 spot under optimal conditions, it's Lindros. Not McDavid (well, maybe...), not Crosby, not Jagr. I can't stress this enough, I was never rooting for Lindros. Frankly, I was always wanting him to fail, because I felt if he ever got the right people around him, it's game over for the league for the forseable future. I don't think I was the only fan watching hockey at the time, that felt this either!

Shaq and Lindros both had their rookie season in '92-'93, and they were both generational (and All-Time) talents to build your team (and league) around. Of the two, as impressive as Shaq was coming out of college, I thought that Lindros is the most perfect player that I'd seen (since the '80s until now), that you could dream of, being a #1 overall pick, out of any of the four major sports.

If you had the chance to re-draft Jagr in '90, or Lindros in '91, I still believe a lot of people would be willing to take another chance on Lindros instead. Jagr had a greater career, and Lindros should have been greater than Jagr.

 

[The Panther]

This is amazing in that I strongly disagree with every single point @frisco made!

Lindros was more unique than actually great.

Wrong.

When you look at his career there's obviously a lot of holes.

Wrong.

He didn't win the Stanley Cup, but he won the NHL western conference on a club that was sub-.500 and out of the playoffs when he joined it.

He won the Memorial Cup.

He won the Canada Cup.

He won an Olympic Gold medal.

He won the Hart Trophy.

He tied for a scoring title.

One top 5 scoring finish (in a shortened season). Zero 50-goal years. One 100-point campaign.

"Finishes" are one thing, but how about looking at how he did relative to peers? In most of his prime seasons with Philly, he was playing 75%-90% of the games (1997 and'2000 are the exceptions, when he played about 66% of the games). That's why the seasonal totals you're looking for aren't there.

PPG:
1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4

(remove Gretzky / Lemieux):
1, 1, 2 (1st if we discounted Neely's 49 games), 2, 4, 4

Point-scoring pace for 82 games:
129, 125, 125, 122, 107, 101 (rookie year)

And he was hyped beyond belief. Not his fault...

I would say it is his fault, or at least his family's fault. They were promoting him to high heaven, publishing his autobiography before he'd played a shift in the NHL. Most of the backlash to follow they brought on themselves.

There's quite a chasm between what he could have done and actually did.

No, there isn't. From 1992 to 2000, he was one of the highest-performing NHL players of all time.

 

[MadLuke]

You're (clearly) making a better argument, than I am, as far as his being underrated. I'm not clear if you're making the point that he's underrated, overrated, or neither.

Lindros is a polarizing player enough to be in those 3 category depending on who doing the rating, so it averages out probably not too bad, but people that underrate him can do it more than the other way around.

I still think Lindros is edging out Jagr (on a per game basis), because there's more to hockey than just point totals.

Obviously true, but Jagr was a puck possession machine with excellent goal against number I think, but peak Lindros obviously being up there among the great of the great at it.

Lindros when he was playing on the legion of doom with Desjardins on the back end is hard to talk about teammate not optimizing is potential (in scoring points at least), they were working really well together.

 

[The Panther]

Somehow we never talk about how great Lindros was in 1993-94 (I guess because he appeared in only 65 games).

He was third in PPG to only Gretzky and (wait for it) Cam Neely, who appeared in just 49 games. Lindros's PPG was higher than Fedorov in his greatest season, who won the Hart (thanks to Yzerman's injury and the scoring explosion he got from that increased ice-time).

 

[Dale53130]

Lindros when he was playing on the legion of doom with Desjardins on the back end is hard to talk about teammate not optimizing is potential (in scoring points at least), they were working really well together.

The Legion of Doom line - specifically with Renberg - barely played together when you think about it. Renberg had a very good rookie campaign, was probably better the next year, but basically misses half of the year, and then he was okay while missing lots of time over the next two seasons.

LeClair was great for parts of six years after coming over mid-season in 1994-95, but the next two seasons, when LeClair is playing full seasons with the team, Renberg was missing significant time, and again, wasn't the same player as he had been his first two seasons.

I think LeClair and Lindros were great together, but the Legion of Doom line is overrated, similar to the NBA's Run TMC group that (shockingly) only played 2 seasons together!

I love Desjardins. He's like adding Teppo Numminen (though slightly better than Numminen) on offense. That's not exactly unlocking Lindros' full offensive arsenal. Not to mention that Desjardins best offensive outputs were in 1998-99, 1999-00.

Outside of Renberg - who again, barely played himself and wasn't good for all that long - no one was really on the Lindros' timeline, in terms of age. What other studs did the Flyers draft while Lindros was there?

They nailed the Recchi trade (LeClair, Desjardins, etc), and that's about it. I love Hawerchuk, but he was fried that last year when they made it to the Finals, and Coffey was in sharp decline too. And their goaltending throughout the time he was with the team was always shaky.

They did not optimize his potential. That's part of why I hated the trade to Philadelphia in the first place, because they weren't exactly stocked full of talent when they made the trade, and they had to give up what they did have in order to get Lindros. Yes, Recchi and Brind'Amour aren't exactly chopped-liver, two very good starting pieces to go with Lindros, but no real depth beyond those guys. There were no young guns waiting to be promoted, within their organization. The Flyers cupboards were bare.

He would have ran into a similar problem had be been traded to the Kings or Chicago, less so with the Rangers, and would have been in a great spot with Detroit; as far as the teams that were seemingly in the running to acquire him via trade.

He didn't get his starting wave of Messier, Lowe, Anderson, Kurri, Coffey, Huddy, Fuhr, etc, nor did he get the wave that would come along a bit later in Rob Brown, Zalapski, but more importantly, Recchi, Cullen, Stevens, followed by Jagr. All of those guys benefited greatly from playing with Gretzky and Lemieux, but Lindros needed had that type of younger talent to work with as well (on his timeline).

 

[Albatros]

Ozolinsh

Ozoliņš at his best was a deserving Norris finalist that was fairly rated and now underrated if anything. Carried the lowly Sharks to their first playoff success and had a big role in Colorado winning the cup.

 

[tabness]

Reading about the teams (1991, 1992) that seemed to be in the running for trading for Lindros (Flyers, Rangers, Kings, etc), I only thought that the Red Wings made sense. If he had been surrounded with the players on that 1992-93 team, having guys like Probert and Kocur around, coupled with one of Yzerman or Fedorov (though he was the one likely to be traded), and all of that depth in juniors and with Adirondack at the time, that would have been an ideal landing spot for him.

I was very big on those early '90 teams, when they had Jimmy Carson and Paul Ysebaert playing on the 2nd and 3rd lines (or wherever they needed to be), both reaching 30 goals in back-to-back years. They were my favorite team to chose when playing the first two EA NHL games ('92 and '93), because they had enough depth to roll out 4 relatively strong lines.

So Doug MacLean in his recent book Draft Day tells us details of all those Lindros to Detroit (usually for a package with Yzerman) rumors in 1992:

"Detroit had offered and interesting package that included Steve Yzerman. Remember, he didn't win a Cup until 1997, so there was a different feeling about Yzerman at the time. I was an assistant coach with the Wings, working for Bryan Murray. And there was pressure to win. Our first offer included Steve Chiasson, my old pal Gerard Gallant, Martin Lapointe, Yves Racine, Mike Sillinger, Yzerman, and $15 million. The second offer was Lapointe, Racine, Sillinger, Yzerman, and the money. Quebec wanted Sergei Fedorov instead of Yzerman but Bryan wouldn't budge. They kept asking for Fedorov, Gallant, Lapointe, Keith Primeau, Racine, Vincent Riendeau - but no way. In return we were asking for Lindros, Craig Wolanin, Herb Raglan, Steve Maltais, and one other player."

This somewhat corroborates but somewhat contradicts the Flyers history book Full Spectrum which has Quebec asking for Fedorov, Lidstrom, Chaisson, Lapointe, Cheveldae and draft picks. Or perhaps that was an early initial ask.

Interestingly enough, as soon as the Lindros for Yzerman rumors got started, Yzerman himself had immediately went to the media and flatly stated he would not report to Quebec whatsoever, and aside from questioning their winning culture, he also raised the points of of taxes and gasoline prices lol, so maybe it was never going to happen as Murray was adamant that Fedorov wouldn't be part of a deal.

In any case, while I'm both very sentimental to Yzerman and Fedorov (I can't really imagine the Wings team I grew up with without either one of them) and I also happen to think the world of them in just a hockey standpoint (would take both of them over a lot players who may have better stats or awards or whatever just both so freaking talented and you can easily say both had their personal glory suppressed due to team success), if I could divorce the feelings and just go from a pure hockey standpoint, yeah I'd ship either one of them off for Lindros, just for a chance to run his career again and hope the injury issues don't turn out so bad. He was so good.

It would definitely be interesting to see Lindros in Detroit. One of the things I think was missing from the glory year Wings from was that they weren't as rough or tough as the late eighties and early nineties. The late eighties Wings of Jacques Demers get somewhat remembered due to the bruise brothers and the back to back conference finals against the Oilers.

(As an aside, since it is nice to hear you are fond of them too, the early nineties Wings of Bryan Murray are mostly forgotten. That's them breaks since they did not have playoff success I guess, but I really love that period of the Wings, just enjoy watching games from then even more than the glory years nowadays.

Still had Probert and Gallant too. Shawn Burr was there. Rocket man Paul Ysebaert and Rifle man Ray Sheppard. Keith Primeau was on the come up. Jimmy Carson started getting comfortable in Detroit by 1991-1992, Dallas Drake had a great rookie year in 1992-1993 and of course, Paul Coffey showed up as well in 1993. Of course Konstantinov and Lidstrom were fresh faces and you had both Yzerman and Fedorov just pretty much at their bests simultaneously. Just a nice mix of the late eighties and late nineties Wings.

Really think Detroit in 1993 could have very easily won it all, had they stayed healthy in those playoffs against Toronto. Their record wasn't as good as they were because it took them a while to find consistency, but the finally started to click, just to have the wheels fall off with a hurt Yzerman and then Coffey in the playoffs. Feel like maybe Murray should have taken one more crack at dual coach/GM in 1993-1994 and gotten a better goalie (then again how could he have forseen how badly Chevy would play in 1993 after his great year and playoffs the year before?)

Scotty Bowman coming in certainly molded the team differently and eventually led to great success but maybe the Wings could have had some more early success as well and guys like Gallant, Burr, Probert, Ciccarelli, Chiasson, Sheppard, Ysebaert, and of course Mark Howe, among others would also have cups... sigh)

 

[frisco]

He didn't win the Stanley Cup, but he won the NHL western conference on a club that was sub-.500 and out of the playoffs when he joined it.

He won the Memorial Cup.

He won the Canada Cup.

He won an Olympic Gold medal.

He won the Hart Trophy.

He tied for a scoring title.

"Finishes" are one thing, but how about looking at how he did relative to peers?

He won the Eastern Conference championship in his 5th year and was swept in Finals where he had three points in four games and was minus 5. This was his one trip to the Finals.

He won the Memorial Cup.

He won the Canada Cup but was a leader on Canadian teams which were considered failures in 1996 and 1998. I forgot he won the gold medal in 2002. His contributions were one point in six games and a minus 3.

He won the Hart and tied for the scoring lead (technically 2nd).

Relative to his peers, he was 2nd, 6th and 7th as his only and best top 10 scoring years.

What he could have done if he wasn't injured, fighting with management, holding out, etc., is speculation. But I stand by my statement of the chasm between his concrete accomplishments vs. the woulda, coulda, shoulda was huge.

My Best-Carey

 

[Dale53130]

So Doug MacLean in his recent book Draft Day tells us details of all those Lindros to Detroit (usually for a package with Yzerman) rumors in 1992:

"Detroit had offered and interesting package that included Steve Yzerman. Remember, he didn't win a Cup until 1997, so there was a different feeling about Yzerman at the time. I was an assistant coach with the Wings, working for Bryan Murray. And there was pressure to win. Our first offer included Steve Chiasson, my old pal Gerard Gallant, Martin Lapointe, Yves Racine, Mike Sillinger, Yzerman, and $15 million. The second offer was Lapointe, Racine, Sillinger, Yzerman, and the money. Quebec wanted Sergei Fedorov instead of Yzerman but Bryan wouldn't budge. They kept asking for Fedorov, Gallant, Lapointe, Keith Primeau, Racine, Vincent Riendeau - but no way. In return we were asking for Lindros, Craig Wolanin, Herb Raglan, Steve Maltais, and one other player."

This somewhat corroborates but somewhat contradicts the Flyers history book Full Spectrum which has Quebec asking for Fedorov, Lidstrom, Chaisson, Lapointe, Cheveldae and draft picks. Or perhaps that was an early initial ask.

Interestingly enough, as soon as the Lindros for Yzerman rumors got started, Yzerman himself had immediately went to the media and flatly stated he would not report to Quebec whatsoever, and aside from questioning their winning culture, he also raised the points of of taxes and gasoline prices lol, so maybe it was never going to happen as Murray was adamant that Fedorov wouldn't be part of a deal.

In any case, while I'm both very sentimental to Yzerman and Fedorov (I can't really imagine the Wings team I grew up with without either one of them) and I also happen to think the world of them in just a hockey standpoint (would take both of them over a lot players who may have better stats or awards or whatever just both so freaking talented and you can easily say both had their personal glory suppressed due to team success), if I could divorce the feelings and just go from a pure hockey standpoint, yeah I'd ship either one of them off for Lindros, just for a chance to run his career again and hope the injury issues don't turn out so bad. He was so good.

It would definitely be interesting to see Lindros in Detroit. One of the things I think was missing from the glory year Wings from was that they weren't as rough or tough as the late eighties and early nineties. The late eighties Wings of Jacques Demers get somewhat remembered due to the bruise brothers and the back to back conference finals against the Oilers.

(As an aside, since it is nice to hear you are fond of them too, the early nineties Wings of Bryan Murray are mostly forgotten. That's them breaks since they did not have playoff success I guess, but I really love that period of the Wings, just enjoy watching games from then even more than the glory years nowadays.

Still had Probert and Gallant too. Shawn Burr was there. Rocket man Paul Ysebaert and Rifle man Ray Sheppard. Keith Primeau was on the come up. Jimmy Carson started getting comfortable in Detroit by 1991-1992, Dallas Drake had a great rookie year in 1992-1993 and of course, Paul Coffey showed up as well in 1993. Of course Konstantinov and Lidstrom were fresh faces and you had both Yzerman and Fedorov just pretty much at their bests simultaneously. Just a nice mix of the late eighties and late nineties Wings.

Really think Detroit in 1993 could have very easily won it all, had they stayed healthy in those playoffs against Toronto. Their record wasn't as good as they were because it took them a while to find consistency, but the finally started to click, just to have the wheels fall off with a hurt Yzerman and then Coffey in the playoffs. Feel like maybe Murray should have taken one more crack at dual coach/GM in 1993-1994 and gotten a better goalie (then again how could he have forseen how badly Chevy would play in 1993 after his great year and playoffs the year before?)

Scotty Bowman coming in certainly molded the team differently and eventually led to great success but maybe the Wings could have had some more early success as well and guys like Gallant, Burr, Probert, Ciccarelli, Chiasson, Sheppard, Ysebaert, and of course Mark Howe, among others would also have cups... sigh)

Great read! I had picked them to win it all in '93.

 

[VistamarCroissants]

That would be underselling him a bit 93-97 was quite high scoring, he scored at a 0.65 gpg and 1.47 ppg pace his first 5 years (playing just under 300 games)

That a 50 goals-120 point by 82 pace.

Fedorov-Francis-Messier in that era scored at 100 points pace, Jagr-Lindros was a tier above them.

Fedorov and Francis were two-way forwards. Messier was in his 30's and slowed down

 

[VistamarCroissants]

So Doug MacLean in his recent book Draft Day tells us details of all those Lindros to Detroit (usually for a package with Yzerman) rumors in 1992:

"Detroit had offered and interesting package that included Steve Yzerman. Remember, he didn't win a Cup until 1997, so there was a different feeling about Yzerman at the time. I was an assistant coach with the Wings, working for Bryan Murray. And there was pressure to win. Our first offer included Steve Chiasson, my old pal Gerard Gallant, Martin Lapointe, Yves Racine, Mike Sillinger, Yzerman, and $15 million. The second offer was Lapointe, Racine, Sillinger, Yzerman, and the money. Quebec wanted Sergei Fedorov instead of Yzerman but Bryan wouldn't budge. They kept asking for Fedorov, Gallant, Lapointe, Keith Primeau, Racine, Vincent Riendeau - but no way. In return we were asking for Lindros, Craig Wolanin, Herb Raglan, Steve Maltais, and one other player."

This somewhat corroborates but somewhat contradicts the Flyers history book Full Spectrum which has Quebec asking for Fedorov, Lidstrom, Chaisson, Lapointe, Cheveldae and draft picks. Or perhaps that was an early initial ask.

Interestingly enough, as soon as the Lindros for Yzerman rumors got started, Yzerman himself had immediately went to the media and flatly stated he would not report to Quebec whatsoever, and aside from questioning their winning culture, he also raised the points of of taxes and gasoline prices lol, so maybe it was never going to happen as Murray was adamant that Fedorov wouldn't be part of a deal.

In any case, while I'm both very sentimental to Yzerman and Fedorov (I can't really imagine the Wings team I grew up with without either one of them) and I also happen to think the world of them in just a hockey standpoint (would take both of them over a lot players who may have better stats or awards or whatever just both so freaking talented and you can easily say both had their personal glory suppressed due to team success), if I could divorce the feelings and just go from a pure hockey standpoint, yeah I'd ship either one of them off for Lindros, just for a chance to run his career again and hope the injury issues don't turn out so bad. He was so good.

It would definitely be interesting to see Lindros in Detroit. One of the things I think was missing from the glory year Wings from was that they weren't as rough or tough as the late eighties and early nineties. The late eighties Wings of Jacques Demers get somewhat remembered due to the bruise brothers and the back to back conference finals against the Oilers.

(As an aside, since it is nice to hear you are fond of them too, the early nineties Wings of Bryan Murray are mostly forgotten. That's them breaks since they did not have playoff success I guess, but I really love that period of the Wings, just enjoy watching games from then even more than the glory years nowadays.

Still had Probert and Gallant too. Shawn Burr was there. Rocket man Paul Ysebaert and Rifle man Ray Sheppard. Keith Primeau was on the come up. Jimmy Carson started getting comfortable in Detroit by 1991-1992, Dallas Drake had a great rookie year in 1992-1993 and of course, Paul Coffey showed up as well in 1993. Of course Konstantinov and Lidstrom were fresh faces and you had both Yzerman and Fedorov just pretty much at their bests simultaneously. Just a nice mix of the late eighties and late nineties Wings.

Really think Detroit in 1993 could have very easily won it all, had they stayed healthy in those playoffs against Toronto. Their record wasn't as good as they were because it took them a while to find consistency, but the finally started to click, just to have the wheels fall off with a hurt Yzerman and then Coffey in the playoffs. Feel like maybe Murray should have taken one more crack at dual coach/GM in 1993-1994 and gotten a better goalie (then again how could he have forseen how badly Chevy would play in 1993 after his great year and playoffs the year before?)

Scotty Bowman coming in certainly molded the team differently and eventually led to great success but maybe the Wings could have had some more early success as well and guys like Gallant, Burr, Probert, Ciccarelli, Chiasson, Sheppard, Ysebaert, and of course Mark Howe, among others would also have cups... sigh)

Imagine giving up Lidstrom and Fedorov for Lindros ? !

Add those two to Sakic, Roy, Forsberg, and the Avs/Nordiques would win 3 or 4 extra Cups.

 

[MadLuke]

Fedorov and Francis were two-way forwards. Messier was in his 30's and slowed down

Messier-Lindros were also in that 2 way category, maybe less so, but yes that why I said if he only played at 100pts pace during that time (while missing games and winning nothing) he would not be that historically relevant of a player and used them to show that you did not needed to be all time great offensive player in your full prime to score at a 100 pts pace in that high scoring era.

Add those two to Sakic, Roy, Forsberg, and the Avs/Nordiques would win 3 or 4 extra Cups.

Forsberg came from the Flyers.

If true that article is interesting, if the Red Wings were firmly Fedorov > Yzerman (we can imagine for age reason but Yzerman would have been what 26...),

 

[VistamarCroissants]

Messier-Lindros were also in that 2 way category, maybe less so, but yes that why I said if he only played at 100pts pace during that time (while missing games and winning nothing) he would not be that historically relevant of a player and used them to show that you did not needed to be all time great offensive player in your full prime to score at a 100 pts pace in that high scoring era.




Forsberg came from the Flyers.

If true that article is interesting, if the Red Wings were firmly Fedorov > Yzerman (we can imagine for age reason but Yzerman would have been what 26...),

True, forgot that Forsberg came from the Flyers.

Anyway, imagine if that trade happened --

Question: Who are your team's centers?

Que/Avs fan: Sakic, Fedorov, Yzerman, Sundin.....

 

[MadLuke]

Anyway, imagine if that trade happened --

They never get Fedorov and Yzerman, it was one or the other they asked for and could have maybe got, which we can say not really that different from getting Forsberg-Ricci at center and having for a second Sakic-Sundin-Forsberg-Ricci.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Overrated: McDavid. mean I get it, he's the best player in the world. but everyone is too quick to just put him above everybody so early in his career and no championships to speak of. he very well could go down as the best player to never win a cup. ALOT of time left for him though and I think he wins one at some point maybe more than 1 but till then, imo he just cant be placed where alot of people think he should

 

[MadLuke]

but everyone is too quick to just put him above everybody so early in his career

This is not that long ago, that not how I remember it, people took their time.

First, Crosby needed to loose the cup, McDavid won the Ross and Hart in 2017, second Ross in 2018, but everyone waited to see what the Pens would do those playoffs before ever thinking about transferring the crown.

After that, people talked about the Mattews-Kucherov-Drai-Mack vs McDavid, arguably more than it was warranted.

After the 2018 season:

NHLPA Player Poll 2017-18 | NHLPA.com

www.nhlpa.com

Hardest to play against, Crosby was still winning polls like that over him
He was not even getting 50% of the vote for who you start a franchise with (despite being 21 years old that was going to win 2 Ross in a row).

That would be something quite rare, old fans-media-players being too quick to put the young guy number 1, it is more often we realize after the fact we were too late on it.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

This is not that long ago, that not how I remember it, people took their time.

First, Crosby needed to loose the cup, McDavid won the Ross and Hart in 2017, second Ros in 2018, but everyone waited to see what the Pens would do those playoffs before ever thinking about transferring the crown.

After that, people talked about the Mattews-Kucherov-Drai-Mack vs McDavid, arguably more than it was warranted.

After the 2018 season:

NHLPA Player Poll 2017-18 | NHLPA.com

www.nhlpa.com

Hardest to play against, Crosby was still winning polls like that over him
He was not even getting 50% of the vote for who you start a franchise with (despite being 21 years old that was going to win 2 Ross in a row).

That would be something quite rare, old fans-media-players being too quick to put the young guy number 1, it is more often we realize after the fact we were too late on it.

thats all nice and all but in sports the best of the best are weighed by championships. he 100% need to lead his team to a cup to have a chance at joining the top 4/5.

people are too quick to just place him in the top 4 already, imo he still hasnt passed Crosby

 

[DitchMarner]

Overrated: McDavid. mean I get it, he's the best player in the world. but everyone is too quick to just put him above everybody so early in his career and no championships to speak of. he very well could go down as the best player to never win a cup. ALOT of time left for him though and I think he wins one at some point maybe more than 1 but till then, imo he just cant be placed where alot of people think he should

I think he already is the best player never to have won a Cup. He's clearly ahead of guys like Dionne, Park and Thornton.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Overrated: McDavid. mean I get it, he's the best player in the world. but everyone is too quick to just put him above everybody so early in his career and no championships to speak of. he very well could go down as the best player to never win a cup. ALOT of time left for him though and I think he wins one at some point maybe more than 1 but till then, imo he just cant be placed where alot of people think he should

OK....

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

thats all nice and all but in sports the best of the best are weighed by championships. he 100% need to lead his team to a cup to have a chance at joining the top 4/5.

people are too quick to just place him in the top 4 already, imo he still hasnt passed Crosby

So Beliveau, Maurice & Henri Richard, and Red Kelly are the best of the best?