- Feb 10, 2010
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Your Mt.Rushmore of OVERRATED and Mt.Rushmore of UNDERRATED ... all time
- Thread starter VanIslander
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MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
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JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
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Yes, no Czech goaltender on a defensive oriented team would ever get a lot of credit.
Vokoun's numbers went up when he left Trotz's Nashville for Jacques Martin's and Peter DeBoer's Florida. And Price had Martin in Montréal as well.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Probably not, adjusting for scoring environment changes, right? Not all goalies respond to every defensive situation equally. But, yes, as you note, he went to Jacques Martin Florida. So he's in a pretty nice spot there coaching wise.
Glen Sather - Overrated as a GM, living off of what he had accomplished in his first few years with the Oilers. Now, he absolutely nailed the '79, '80, '81 drafts, and did a pretty good job even in '83, but after that point, I think he sort of sucked at drafting. I also never really thought that he won that many of his trades going forward either. When we're talking about the early-/mid-'90s and beyond, that's specifically when I thought that he was overrated. His reputation was bloated. He had a plum job with the Rangers too, and never did much there (IMO), with consideration to all of the (perceived) spending that was allowed relative to what he couldn't do in Edmonton.
Cam Neely - Underrated these days. I thought he was the most overrated player in the late '80s/early '90s, but after hearing him getting dumped on so readily/frequently over the past 30 years, I think much more of him now. He was quite the force, even against a loaded Penguins squad. Outside of Bourque and Neely, some of those Boston teams had a lot of grit, but were short on talent beyond those two. Getting 50/50 when his knees/legs were shot is pretty remarkable.
I used to be less-than-impressed with his point totals, that they didn't match his reputation, which is/was true for that era, but I did think that he was the premiere power forward (in the league) on a then relevant Bruins team.
DPE players on HFboards - Overrated. If you played in that era, you instantly get vaulted ahead of any other era; it certainly feels like it. It's like a badge of honor. If you played in the '80s (and seems like the '70s are also in that category now), you weren't really that good, and you were just stat padding. It's a stain on your career. I think Mike Bossy gets underrated to a large degree because of this, but who else was averaging 60 goals per season over a 9-run year, on a team that won 4 cups in a row?
We talk about how overrated the Big Four are in this very thread, but I've read FAR MORE about Sakic/Forsberg/Jagr/Yzerman/Lidstrom/etc than I have of Bobby Orr in these parts over the years.
Jagr on HFboards - Overrated. For years, I thought Jagr was underrated/underappreciated, but now I think he actually benefitted playing in the DPE because of his build/style. I think the assumption is that if he had played in the '80s, his floor would be putting up Marcel Dionne type of numbers, and toggling between that and peak Esposito numbers, but I'm not so sure about that.
If he had a target on his back, on par with Lindros, he's not reaching 1,700 GP. I also don't think most of his teams - once he was at/near his prime/peak - were all that good. Conversely, if Lindros played on another team not named the Flyers, and had a coach/GM that did more to protect him, and let him focus on developing his offensive skillset (which he never did unlike other greats), I think 95/100 times he's a part of The Big 5.
Like almost everyone, I never rooted for Lindros. However, if I could chose a do-over for "1" player, in any of the major sports, I'd chose Lindros. I don't think we saw anything close to what his peak should have been like. I feel cheated.
Joe Juneau's Jock Strap - Overrated. Or maybe it's underrated? I don't know, I have to see it. All I know is that Teemu Selanne wasn't strong enough to carry it. It's like lifting Thor's hammer apparently.
Gretzky's 1990-91 season - Underrated. It's assumed that his peak was (probably) between 1981-1987 or so (prime maybe 1980-81 to 1990-91). But when you consider who he was playing with, the lack of depth and quality players with the Kings, still a semi-new environment with teammates that he didn't come into the league with, it's far more impressive now, looking back. I personally believe, that Gretzky was on a level where he was maybe bored, toying with the game (like Larry Bird when he was at his peak winning 3 consecutive MVP's), and by '87, he was no longer chasing 200 point seasons. Maybe that was no longer necessary in his mind. He'd focus less on goals, and more on how to get the most out of his linemates (Bird shooting with his left hand!). It's probably more enjoyable for him by that point, nothing left to prove, that he was more excited about his teammates individual success, and their collective success as a team.
I also wonder if part of the reason that he went to the Kings, was that he wanted a different challenge.
His 1990-91 season also overlaps with a high influx of European/Eastern Bloc players coming into the league, the game was much faster, probably more skilled than ever before, not to mention that those imports came over with more pro-experience than what we're accustomed to today.
I actually wonder if this was Gretzky greatest season, and maybe he was still at his peak in '91. He was still only 30 at the time. We just don't think this because of 1989-90, and his significant drop off by the 1991-92 season going forward, and maybe his peak coincided the same year he exited his prime. It's also close to impossible thinking that a guy who put up 163 points is as good or better than a younger version who put up 215 points years earlier, but I have a hard time believing that Grezky's brain was dropping off at 30 years of age. Seeing how he's a wizard who processed the game on a different level, while still being close to as good as he was in his Edmonton days, why are we to assume that he's not actually peaking in '91.
It will get swept under the rug because of (probable) PED usage, but Bonds (and Hank Aaron) claimed that he was seeing things on a completely different level at an advanced age; roughly around 40 years old when he set the single season OPS record. Gretzky saw things out there that others couldn't see, so why would his brain peak in his mid-20s? Wouldn't he be that more knowledgeable, to offset whatever athletic decline that would have been happening by then? It's not like his game was ever predicated on explosive speed and such.
Phil Housley on HFboards - Underrated. Yes, he was "not good" in his own end. Understood. But outside of Orr at the top, and then the next level which is just Coffey, I don't think Phil Housley really took a back seat to anyone offensively from that era. If he was so bad, he wouldn't have had a 21-year career! Also, let's consider that he also played in the DPE era, so his career point averages are going to take a hit as well.
As an aside, isn't it weird that Orr is the only one on that level offensively, and Coffey himself is on an island of his own, between Orr and the rest? Is there an equivalent, as a forward, who's not good enough to be with Gretzky/Lemieux (depending on how you feel about Lemieux), but who's also generally viewed as being on his own level, separating him from everyone else? Is the answer Jagr? Or is it McDavid? Or Jagr and McDavid? Bobby Hull?
Bobby Hull - Underrated, now and IMO, especially on HFboards. Leaving everything else aside, just isolating hockey, he was one of the greatest. He had all of the gifts.
The Eye Test - Underrated. Who said that everyone is processing and understanding the game on an equal level? We're not.
Cam Neely - Underrated these days. I thought he was the most overrated player in the late '80s/early '90s, but after hearing him getting dumped on so readily/frequently over the past 30 years, I think much more of him now. He was quite the force, even against a loaded Penguins squad. Outside of Bourque and Neely, some of those Boston teams had a lot of grit, but were short on talent beyond those two. Getting 50/50 when his knees/legs were shot is pretty remarkable.
I used to be less-than-impressed with his point totals, that they didn't match his reputation, which is/was true for that era, but I did think that he was the premiere power forward (in the league) on a then relevant Bruins team.
DPE players on HFboards - Overrated. If you played in that era, you instantly get vaulted ahead of any other era; it certainly feels like it. It's like a badge of honor. If you played in the '80s (and seems like the '70s are also in that category now), you weren't really that good, and you were just stat padding. It's a stain on your career. I think Mike Bossy gets underrated to a large degree because of this, but who else was averaging 60 goals per season over a 9-run year, on a team that won 4 cups in a row?
We talk about how overrated the Big Four are in this very thread, but I've read FAR MORE about Sakic/Forsberg/Jagr/Yzerman/Lidstrom/etc than I have of Bobby Orr in these parts over the years.
Jagr on HFboards - Overrated. For years, I thought Jagr was underrated/underappreciated, but now I think he actually benefitted playing in the DPE because of his build/style. I think the assumption is that if he had played in the '80s, his floor would be putting up Marcel Dionne type of numbers, and toggling between that and peak Esposito numbers, but I'm not so sure about that.
If he had a target on his back, on par with Lindros, he's not reaching 1,700 GP. I also don't think most of his teams - once he was at/near his prime/peak - were all that good. Conversely, if Lindros played on another team not named the Flyers, and had a coach/GM that did more to protect him, and let him focus on developing his offensive skillset (which he never did unlike other greats), I think 95/100 times he's a part of The Big 5.
Like almost everyone, I never rooted for Lindros. However, if I could chose a do-over for "1" player, in any of the major sports, I'd chose Lindros. I don't think we saw anything close to what his peak should have been like. I feel cheated.
Joe Juneau's Jock Strap - Overrated. Or maybe it's underrated? I don't know, I have to see it. All I know is that Teemu Selanne wasn't strong enough to carry it. It's like lifting Thor's hammer apparently.
Gretzky's 1990-91 season - Underrated. It's assumed that his peak was (probably) between 1981-1987 or so (prime maybe 1980-81 to 1990-91). But when you consider who he was playing with, the lack of depth and quality players with the Kings, still a semi-new environment with teammates that he didn't come into the league with, it's far more impressive now, looking back. I personally believe, that Gretzky was on a level where he was maybe bored, toying with the game (like Larry Bird when he was at his peak winning 3 consecutive MVP's), and by '87, he was no longer chasing 200 point seasons. Maybe that was no longer necessary in his mind. He'd focus less on goals, and more on how to get the most out of his linemates (Bird shooting with his left hand!). It's probably more enjoyable for him by that point, nothing left to prove, that he was more excited about his teammates individual success, and their collective success as a team.
I also wonder if part of the reason that he went to the Kings, was that he wanted a different challenge.
His 1990-91 season also overlaps with a high influx of European/Eastern Bloc players coming into the league, the game was much faster, probably more skilled than ever before, not to mention that those imports came over with more pro-experience than what we're accustomed to today.
I actually wonder if this was Gretzky greatest season, and maybe he was still at his peak in '91. He was still only 30 at the time. We just don't think this because of 1989-90, and his significant drop off by the 1991-92 season going forward, and maybe his peak coincided the same year he exited his prime. It's also close to impossible thinking that a guy who put up 163 points is as good or better than a younger version who put up 215 points years earlier, but I have a hard time believing that Grezky's brain was dropping off at 30 years of age. Seeing how he's a wizard who processed the game on a different level, while still being close to as good as he was in his Edmonton days, why are we to assume that he's not actually peaking in '91.
It will get swept under the rug because of (probable) PED usage, but Bonds (and Hank Aaron) claimed that he was seeing things on a completely different level at an advanced age; roughly around 40 years old when he set the single season OPS record. Gretzky saw things out there that others couldn't see, so why would his brain peak in his mid-20s? Wouldn't he be that more knowledgeable, to offset whatever athletic decline that would have been happening by then? It's not like his game was ever predicated on explosive speed and such.
Phil Housley on HFboards - Underrated. Yes, he was "not good" in his own end. Understood. But outside of Orr at the top, and then the next level which is just Coffey, I don't think Phil Housley really took a back seat to anyone offensively from that era. If he was so bad, he wouldn't have had a 21-year career! Also, let's consider that he also played in the DPE era, so his career point averages are going to take a hit as well.
As an aside, isn't it weird that Orr is the only one on that level offensively, and Coffey himself is on an island of his own, between Orr and the rest? Is there an equivalent, as a forward, who's not good enough to be with Gretzky/Lemieux (depending on how you feel about Lemieux), but who's also generally viewed as being on his own level, separating him from everyone else? Is the answer Jagr? Or is it McDavid? Or Jagr and McDavid? Bobby Hull?
Bobby Hull - Underrated, now and IMO, especially on HFboards. Leaving everything else aside, just isolating hockey, he was one of the greatest. He had all of the gifts.
The Eye Test - Underrated. Who said that everyone is processing and understanding the game on an equal level? We're not.
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Theres a huge gap between hfboards consensus and the average fan.
Obviously theres a gap between casual and serious fan opinions in every sport, but a sport like baseball can at least correctly recognize the undeniable greatness of a mike trout with 3 playoff games lifetime, whereas silliness like Toews>Crosby, Yzerman =/= a leader, or Brodeur as an all time great gets pushed by hockey media for years.
frisco
Some people claim that there's a woman to blame...
Overrated: Kariya, Forsberg, H.Sedin, Bure.
Underrated: Francis, Robitaille, Jagr, Sundin.
My Best-Carey
Underrated: Francis, Robitaille, Jagr, Sundin.
My Best-Carey
The Panther
Registered User
An odd take, maybe. Who exactly is rating him so high?
CokenoPepsi
Registered User
- Oct 28, 2016
- 5,173
- 2,616
Mohar Ikram
Registered User
Overrated: McDavid, E. Karlsson, Macinnis, Perreault
Underrated: Perry, Damphousse, Verbeek, B. Smith
Underrated: Perry, Damphousse, Verbeek, B. Smith
jigglysquishy
Registered User
There's a small but very passionate Linden diehard crew.
I know two people named Linden, being named after the player. I know zero other people named after hockey players.
Tuna99
Registered User
- Sep 26, 2009
- 15,310
- 7,255
Underrated:
Curtis Joseph (I was and Edmonton and Ottawa fan so I loved this guy before I hated him. To me one of the best 2nd and 3rd shot stop goalies ever and a true warrior)
Overrated:
Mark Recchi - played with Mario and made stats to get him into the HOF and then played for Montreal and he couldn’t get the puck into the zone
Curtis Joseph (I was and Edmonton and Ottawa fan so I loved this guy before I hated him. To me one of the best 2nd and 3rd shot stop goalies ever and a true warrior)
Overrated:
Mark Recchi - played with Mario and made stats to get him into the HOF and then played for Montreal and he couldn’t get the puck into the zone
Felidae
Registered User
- Sep 30, 2016
- 11,574
- 14,439
Idk I'm pretty confident in Jagr's adaptability.
His comeback at age 34 for one. Probably the slowest he's ever been at that point in his career. The end of the DPE and rise of a higher scoring, faster paced game. Yet he managed to have his best season in years, transformed into a one time threat on the PP when before you could probably count on one hand how many times he's taken a slapshot.
And n the early 90s, his game was a bit different in that he was a noticeably faster player and more rush oriented.
Then of course in the mid to late 2010s, managed to remain a 1st line player and carve out one of the best post 40 careers in hockey history. Again, despite the massive decline in his speed and the game becoming faster than ever.
There's a few things to criticize Jagr for. But i don't think his ability to adapt in different era's is one. I still think he'd be just as effective in today's game. Some of the best forwards in the game right now are also the best puck protectors and not exactly burners out there. Draisaitl, Rantanen, Barkov and old man Crosby come to mind.
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Im genuinely curious, why are so many ITT chiseling out Datsyukian features on mount overrated?
He was extremely highly regarded in his late career about 10 years ago by all 3 of fans/players/media, and he has to be one of the most complete players in the category of flashy big name forwards alongside Clarke and Gainey.
What about him is overrated exactly?
He was extremely highly regarded in his late career about 10 years ago by all 3 of fans/players/media, and he has to be one of the most complete players in the category of flashy big name forwards alongside Clarke and Gainey.
What about him is overrated exactly?
Nick Hansen
Registered User
- Sep 28, 2017
- 3,137
- 2,672
MacInnis? I've always wondered why no one is ever talking about him. Great resume but basically never figures in any discussions on here nor anywhere else really.
Al MacInnis Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com
Checkout the latest stats of Al MacInnis. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com
www.hockey-reference.com
K Fleur
Sacrifice
- Mar 28, 2014
- 15,683
- 26,377
Definitely not mount rusmore but Devils era Scott Gomez is an underrated and under appreciated player.
I don't see how you can separate his physicality from his offensive prowess. Take away his physicality and he likely becomes a Top 3/5ish offensive player. We saw some of that in the early '00s.
In the very fantasy world that he was able to keep up his peak physicality for 3 or 4 more seasons, there is no guarantee that hits a higher peak than what he did offensively from '94 to '97, which fits into a space between peak Jagr and peak Forsberg/Sakic i.e. Jagr is always viewed as being the best offensive player of that era.
So does his Top 20ish all-time offensive peak plus his #1 all-time physicality make him a member of the Big 5?
underrated:
Nick Suzuki
Cole Caufield
Juraj Slafkovsky
Lane Hutson
overrated:
Nostrils
Pajama Boy
Willy
Mitch
Nick Suzuki
Cole Caufield
Juraj Slafkovsky
Lane Hutson
overrated:
Nostrils
Pajama Boy
Willy
Mitch
JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
- 18,745
- 13,839
Datsyuk was an hfboards pet, not to Forsberg level, so some are reacting to that. Niedermayer was a media pet, so some people post in regard to that. Honestly though as a Detroit fan I do think that Datsyuk was somewhat overrated. People would, some still will, tell you that he was as good as Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin and that was never the case. He was an elite player, one of the best in the NHL for some years, in a great situation but not on that level. I'd also take Zetterberg over him without a second thought based on watching them extensively. I think he got somewhat overrated because the package he was sold as overstated him a bit (best hands in the NHL AND the best defensive forward!) and was very unique.
I don't have four names right now but I think that Patrick Kane is overrated and Mike Liut and Mark Howe are underrated. Toronto players from the 1960s, except for Mahovlich and for Keon within the Toronto bubble, are underrated. I strongly suspect that Dickie Moore is underrated.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
My cat's full name is Pascal Dupuis. But we just call him Dupuis because it's a surprisingly cute name.
It just felt appropriate to say that here. I'm sorry.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Zetterberg clearly came up bigger in the playoffs than Datsyuk.
The numbers that really got my attention for Datsyuk were takeaways/giveaways. Not until his 6th season were those records kept, but his numbers for the next 9 seasons were 754/380. In the playoffs 118/47. Seems remarkable to me.
JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
- 18,745
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Yeah the playoffs, year after year, are why I would have to take Zetterberg. I don't believe that Zetterberg was physically capable of playing his best game, in and out every day, for a full season, but he more or less could in the playoffs. Datsyuk could play his game every day of the week, which is a plus especially in the regular season. I'd take Zetterberg's best games over Datsyuk's, and I think that Datsyuk was easier for opposing teams to plan around in the playoffs than Zetterberg was.
To be clear I do not think that Datsyuk is in contention for most overrated player of all time by any stretch. Just that people who think he was ever Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin overrate him.
