Yakov Trenin breaks Derek Forbort's orbital bone while prone

[FMichael]

Fighting isn’t legal based on the NHL rulebook.

I would love to see where in the rulebook that it distinguishes punching someone in the face being allowed when the ref isn’t in the way vs it not being allowed when the ref is in the way.

Sucks someone got hurt. But players punching others while the other guy is on the ice or tied up by a ref is an occurrence as old as time.

Agreed…Shit happens and it’s unfortunate.

 

[jackjohnson]

Fighting isn’t legal based on the NHL rulebook.

I would love to see where in the rulebook that it distinguishes punching someone in the face being allowed when the ref isn’t in the way vs it not being allowed when the ref is in the way.

Sucks someone got hurt. But players punching others while the other guy is on the ice or tied up by a ref is an occurrence as old as time.

It does have it in the rulebook

In the NHL, an "aggressor" in a fight is defined as the player who continues to engage in a fight after it has become clear that the opponent is unwilling or unable to continue, or is in a defenseless position. This can involve throwing punches, continuing grappling, or otherwise attempting to inflict punishment.


46.2 Aggressor – The aggressor in an altercation shall be the player who continues to throw punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on his opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling combatant.

A player must be deemed the aggressor when he has clearly won the fight but he continues throwing and landing punches in a further attempt to inflict punishment and/or injury on his opponent who is no longer in a position to defend himself.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation will have this recorded as an aggressor of an altercation for statistical and suspension purposes.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game misconduct penalty (aggressor).


There are rules in fighting, remember boxing and UFC also have refs too. When refs get in between, there is an unwritten rule that you don't throw punches but there is a written rule when the player is laying down on the ice and defenseless. So I guess Trenin broke both rules. The fact that you even question this shows me that you dont know what the rules are. In fact Trenin was kicked out of the game but its hilarious Canucks didn't even get a powerplay out of it. Just pathetic reffing by NHL imo.

 

[jackjohnson]

Not sure if I’d say fighting is ‘legal’ as it’s tolerated and punishable with time in the pen box, fines, and suspensions.

Trenin appears to have gotten 1 punch in as Forbot is deemed defenseless…Not the 1st time and won’t be the last that this happens, but again things look worse when slowed down and not seen in real time heat of the moment speed.

I know that fighting gets you penalty and to some extend it is allowed in NHL since the refs don't really interfere and no suspension comes out of it. Not like if it was NBA, NFL or soccer where fighting could land you hefty fines or suspension. But even in NHL there is a degree of fighting that is tolerated otherwise they wouldn't have suspended Todd Bertuzzi for a sucker punch. When you are clearly deemed as an aggressor trying to hurt another player, that should be suspension worthy. NHL rulebook would give an aggressor a two game suspension only after multiple similar incidents in a season. I think that rule should change if NHL cares about hits to the head and concussions. You should only be allowed to fight when there is no ref in between and both combatants are able to defend themselves. Once a ref comes in between two players, fighting should stop, no reason to throw extra punches.

 

[Spawn]

It does have it in the rulebook

In the NHL, an "aggressor" in a fight is defined as the player who continues to engage in a fight after it has become clear that the opponent is unwilling or unable to continue, or is in a defenseless position. This can involve throwing punches, continuing grappling, or otherwise attempting to inflict punishment.


46.2 Aggressor – The aggressor in an altercation shall be the player who continues to throw punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on his opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling combatant.

A player must be deemed the aggressor when he has clearly won the fight but he continues throwing and landing punches in a further attempt to inflict punishment and/or injury on his opponent who is no longer in a position to defend himself.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation will have this recorded as an aggressor of an altercation for statistical and suspension purposes.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game misconduct penalty (aggressor).


There are rules in fighting, remember boxing and UFC also have refs too. When refs get in between, there is an unwritten rule that you don't throw punches but there is a written rule when the player is laying down on the ice and defenseless. So I guess Trenin broke both rules. The fact that you even question this shows me that you dont know what the rules are. In fact Trenin was kicked out of the game but its hilarious Canucks didn't even get a powerplay out of it. Just pathetic reffing by NHL imo.

You know what. Fair enough. I hadn’t read that rule before. Although I’ll counter by saying Forbort was the “aggressor” and threw two or three punches when Trenin was down on his knees moments earlier when he was in a position not to defend himself.

This all happened within the manner of a second or two. You’re reacting like it was some malicious attack.

And the point of MMA or boxing is to fight. There are winners and losers. It’s completely different to the sideshow that is fighting in hockey.

The only point of any of these guys fighting in hockey is trying to hurt each other. The cognitive dissonance going on where someone is upset that someone ended up hurt is bizarre.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If thats the case then we can just use sticks too to decapitate a guy's head since it seems like street fighting is allowed in NHL. Even in boxing the ref breaks up the fight when the guy hits the mat or UFC has rules that doesn't allow punching to the back of the head. Why should NHL have a free for all when a fight starts. Again it’s a mickey mouse league with mickey mouse rules. Besides, this is hockey not some underground blood sport where one guy can kill another guy and get some money. Forbort has suffered a broken orbital bone and maybe a concussion. His career could change because of some stupid punch by Trenin thinking he is playing tough by cowardly throwing a punch against a defenseless player on ice. Not even Reaves goes to that extent.

I’m not saying it wasn’t a cheap punch. I’m saying the league needs to figure out where it stands. You can’t have soft standards of punishment for guys bare-knuckle brawling and then get all shocked when it turns personal.

This is why the whole idea of a “code” was always bullshit. There’s no bro-code in play when two guys actually hate each other and actually want to hurt each other. If that’s not the situation, then it’s not a real fight is it?

 

[jackjohnson]

DOPS already said no punishment for this

Lucky spin on the wheel for Trenin. Guess it will now result in a Canuck attempting to injure him next time they play, because this is a neanderthal game

This is the same league that didn't give anything to Moore and allowed a situation to fester into the Todd Bertuzzi incident. Its the same neanderthal game. Now I know why Cherry says each team needs a designated goon. Incidents like this when NHL is useless and doesn't do much. We didn't even get a powerplay and Forbort got a broken orbital bone for absolutely nothing. The fact that we lost that game makes me really pissed. Maybe a major powerplay would have the Wild losing in regulation and ultimately out of the playoffs. But the game was rigged when they didn't even call Hughes getting clearly tripped right next to the ref watching it unfold.

 

[jackjohnson]

I’m not saying it wasn’t a cheap punch. I’m saying the league needs to figure out where it stands. You can’t have soft standards of punishment for guys bare-knuckle brawling and then get all shocked when it turns personal.

This is why the whole idea of a “code” was always bullshit. There’s no bro-code in play when two guys actually hate each other and actually want to hurt each other. If that’s not the situation, then it’s not a real fight is it?

They do have specific rules for fighting.

46.2 Aggressor – The aggressor in an altercation shall be the player who continues to throw punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on his opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling combatant.

A player must be deemed the aggressor when he has clearly won the fight but he continues throwing and landing punches in a further attempt to inflict punishment and/or injury on his opponent who is no longer in a position to defend himself.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation will have this recorded as an aggressor of an altercation for statistical and suspension purposes.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game misconduct penalty (aggressor).

IF they didn't have rules in fighting, then Forbort can also be allowed to use his stick and decapitate Trenin. You can't just say because NHL allows some degree of fighting then its street fighting rules where anything goes. You can fight the willing and punch them as long as they aren't laying down on ice with their arms tied by the ref. Thats not even allowed in UFC or boxing, when a refs get in between fighters, so am not sure why it would be allowed in NHL. I guess NHL wants to appease some NHL fans that are fans of undground blood sports and street fighting. Even Don Cherry who is labeled as a goon lover around here would agree with me that what Trenin did was disgusting.

 

[FMichael]

You should only be allowed to fight when there is no ref in between and both combatants are able to defend themselves. Once a ref comes in between two players, fighting should stop, no reason to throw extra punches.

In a perfect world - sure, but once again this all goes down in a matter of seconds and sometimes shit happens.

Don’t engage in fisticuffs if you don’t want to risk injury.

 

[jackjohnson]

I’m not saying it wasn’t a cheap punch. I’m saying the league needs to figure out where it stands. You can’t have soft standards of punishment for guys bare-knuckle brawling and then get all shocked when it turns personal.

This is why the whole idea of a “code” was always bullshit. There’s no bro-code in play when two guys actually hate each other and actually want to hurt each other. If that’s not the situation, then it’s not a real fight is it?

Look even in boxing and UFC that code exists but its also in the official rulebooks. UFC is more laxed but they definitely have refs that will stop a fighter from throwing punches on a motionless fighter to protect the fighter that can't defend themselves. Why should NHL be different? The players want to hurt each other, not kill each other, otherwise they would not have suspended Bertuzzi for 30 games. So even a single sucker punch can land you in hot waters.

Again its a hockey game, not some UFC pay per view event.

 

[tarheelhockey]

They do have specific rules for fighting.

46.2 Aggressor – The aggressor in an altercation shall be the player who continues to throw punches in an attempt to inflict punishment on his opponent who is in a defenseless position or who is an unwilling combatant.

A player must be deemed the aggressor when he has clearly won the fight but he continues throwing and landing punches in a further attempt to inflict punishment and/or injury on his opponent who is no longer in a position to defend himself.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed a major penalty for fighting and a game misconduct.

A player who is deemed to be the aggressor of an altercation will have this recorded as an aggressor of an altercation for statistical and suspension purposes.

A player who is deemed to be both the instigator and aggressor of an altercation shall be assessed an instigating minor penalty, a major penalty for fighting, a ten-minute misconduct (instigator) and a game misconduct penalty (aggressor).

IF they didn't have rules in fighting, then Forbort can also be allowed to use his stick and decapitate Trenin. You can't just say because NHL allows some degree of fighting then its street fighting rules where anything goes. You can fight the willing and punch them as long as they aren't laying down on ice with their arms tied by the ref. Thats not even allowed in UFC or boxing, when a refs get in between fighters, so am not sure why it would be allowed in NHL. I guess NHL wants to appease some NHL fans that are fans of undground blood sports and street fighting. Even Don Cherry who is labeled as a goon lover around here would agree with me that what Trenin did was disgusting.

And what I am saying, again, is that it’s ridiculous to have these fine-tuned of rules around something like fighting.

Don Cherry is full of shit. Go back and watch how his Bruins ACTUALLY fought. Guys pulling hair, gouging eyes, biting, and yes swinging sticks.

He was on the bench for this one:



But once he gets into the TV booth, nobody’s faster to grandstand about some made up bro-code. It’s all nonsense. Either they’re really fighting from boiled-over emotion or it’s a big fake circus act — pick a side and set the rules accordingly.

Edit: this is how much Don Cherry cared about a “code” when he actually had control of events on the ice:

 

[jackjohnson]

In a perfect world - sure, but once again this all goes down in a matter of seconds and sometimes shit happens.

Don’t engage in fisticuffs if you don’t want to risk injury.

Sorry, sometimes shit happens doesn't excuse you for throwing extra punches with refs in between. You do that in boxing and you can be suspended and get disqualified. Its not a perfect world but we are living in a real world.

Also engaging in fisticuffs doesn't mean anything goes. If that was the case than Forbort could also use his stick to swing on Trenin's head. Boxing has rules, otherwise they wouldn't have refs. Maybe you think NHL is some blood sport so if someone fights then they lose their right to defend themselves automatically and the aggressor can punch him when he is still motionless on the ice.

 

[jackjohnson]

And what I am saying, again, is that it’s ridiculous to have these fine-tuned of rules around something like fighting.

Don Cherry is full of shit. Go back and watch how his Bruins ACTUALLY fought. Guys pulling hair, gouging eyes, biting, and yes swinging sticks.

He was on the bench for this one:



But once he gets into the TV booth, nobody’s faster to grandstand about some made up bro-code. It’s all nonsense. Either they’re really fighting from boiled-over emotion or it’s a big fake circus act — pick a side and set the rules accordingly.

So basically you want to have street fight rules, no hold bars and anything goes. Maybe the player can pull a gun and shoot the player too, since there shouldn't be any fined-tune rules. I mean you can watch those in American movies and underground street fighting in youtube if it tickles your fancy but I rather watch hockey not some goon show.

 

[tarheelhockey]

So basically you want to have street fight rules, no hold bars and anything goes. Maybe the player can pull a gun and shoot the player too, since there shouldn't be any fined-tune rules. I mean you can watch those in American movies and underground street fighting in youtube if it tickles your fancy but I rather watch hockey not some goon show.

Yes, I believe that players should be able to take out guns and shoot each other.

Done with the strawman now?

 

[jackjohnson]

Yes, I believe that players should be able to take out guns and shoot each other.

Done with the strawman now?

Well you said you wanted those shenanigans from the past with the eye gouging, ear biting and hair pulling which gets you suspended even in combat sports like boxing and UFC. Cmon we are talking about hockey, so why should hockey not have rules about fighting? if you get mad at someone in the street, do you also punch them right down to the ground and have them in a coma? Of course not, since there are consequences and you will be thrown in jail for assault or worst manslaughter or even attempted murder. Same thing with NHL, some degree of fighting is allowed but not to the point where they other player can keep throwing punches while the other guy is defenseless. Are we trying to go backwards to neanderthal days? with all the CTE, concussion discussion around hockey, fights should be taken more seriously.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Look even in boxing and UFC that code exists but its also in the official rulebooks. UFC is more laxed but they definitely have refs that will stop a fighter from throwing punches on a motionless fighter to protect the fighter that can't defend themselves. Why should NHL be different? The players want to hurt each other, not kill each other, otherwise they would not have suspended Bertuzzi for 30 games. So even a single sucker punch can land you in hot waters.

Again its a hockey game, not some UFC pay per view event.

You’re right, it’s a hockey game, not an organized fighting sport like boxing or UFC. That is exactly why the rules don’t make sense.

Either hockey players are fighting for real, or they’re not. If they’re fighting for real, you’re gonna see stuff like this. If you don’t want to see stuff like this, skip the silly boxing-style rules and just ban it for real.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well you said you wanted those shenanigans from the past with the eye gouging, ear biting and hair pulling which gets you suspended even in combat sports like boxing and UFC. Cmon we are talking about hockey, so why should hockey not have rules about fighting? if you get mad at someone in the street, do you also punch them right down to the ground and have them in a coma? Of course not, since there are consequences and you will be thrown in jail for assault or worst manslaughter or even attempted murder. Same thing with NHL, some degree of fighting is allowed but not to the point where they other player can keep throwing punches while the other guy is defenseless. Are we trying to go backwards to neanderthal days? with all the CTE, concussion discussion around hockey, fights should be taken more seriously.

I didn’t say I wanted to see hair pulling etc. I said that’s the reality of two men having an actual honest-to-god fistfight, as opposed to participating in a fighting sport with gentleman’s rules.

You brought Don Cherry into it. I simply pointed out that his boys were the first to gouge someone in the eye or swing a stick at their head. He’s full of shit with this “code” garbage. Wanting to make it sound like it was anything other than telling young men to beat the hell out of each other for ratings.

If you want that stuff out of the game, take it out of the game. We’ve gone through decades of trying to fine-tune raw animal violence into a safe, family friendly product and it’s just not possible to do that.

 

[bleedgreen]

I see this extra shot attempted and sometimes executed in almost every fight I see these days. If you’re so angry at each other you’re going to throw hands at each others heads trying to mess each other up, human nature doesn’t lend itself to auto stopping on a cue. That “code” was more of a code amongst goons who fight for a living, and are playing a role so there really isn’t the same level of emotion. You’re not trying to hurt the other guy. Amongst two guys who hate each other that much in the moment it’s not weird at all that someone takes another swing. They ARE trying to hurt each other. It’s a fight.

If losing our minds over the details of a fight is now the thing then just take fighting out. Same with hitting to be honest. No one knows how to tolerate a hit either so let’s just move on.

 

[FMichael]

Sorry, sometimes shit happens doesn't excuse you for throwing extra punches with refs in between. You do that in boxing and you can be suspended and get disqualified. Its not a perfect world but we are living in a real world.

Also engaging in fisticuffs doesn't mean anything goes. If that was the case than Forbort could also use his stick to swing on Trenin's head. Boxing has rules, otherwise they wouldn't have refs. Maybe you think NHL is some blood sport so if someone fights then they lose their right to defend themselves automatically and the aggressor can punch him when he is still motionless on the ice.

What unique world do you live in where everyone is just and rules apply accordingly.

Grow up man.

 

[Reality Czech]

This league needs to decide where it stands on fighting. You can’t have soft penalties for this stuff and then clutch your pearls when a guy gets hurt during a fistfight.

So you're the kind of guy to kick/punch a guy when he's down and defenseless? Trenin just jumped way up the scumbag list with this move.

 

[CostaRica]

Forbort went for it, fought dirty and ended up getting an injury. Unfortunate for him but it’s just lucky there’s not more injuries in a sport that encourages fighting.

 

[Acallabeth]

Live by a sword, die by a sword. You can't both support fighting as 'a part of the game' and whine if the other guy fights better than you do (and spare me the high-horse 'code' BS, Trenin just landed his punch when Forbort missed his).

I stand by the opinion that any fight with punches thrown should be a game misconduct and repeated fights should be a suspension by default. Fighting in hockey can not ever be 'safe'. It takes years off players' lives and can decrease the quality of their lives dramatically. It is barely regulated by rules. It doesn't improve the game one bit.

 

[edevils]

The punch was thrown in the moment. There was nothing wrong with this fight.

The league got the ruling right.

 

[FMichael]

The punch was thrown in the moment. There was nothing wrong with this fight.

The league got the ruling right.

The comedy of it all is when posters here compare an organized/sanctioned bout between 2 willing combatants with clear rules/instructions/ref/judges to a spontaneous bare knuckle brawl in hockey and how unsportsmanlike and dirty it is…Like no shit - it’s f***ing hockey!

 

[Sensatauro]

When both are standing up and punching, that is fine. Forbort was punching a still standing Trenin with no ref in between. So what if Trenin was losing his balance? Thats how all hockey fights are, someone loses balance and the fight ends. The problem is the ref is on top of Forbort, in between the two and Trenin still throws a punch against Forbort who can't defend himself. Its very different, I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

You sir are the folk I spoke of in this very post of mine you quoted.

Well played

 

[thestonedkoala]

By the logic of Canuck fans here, Trenin should be suspended for something that unfortunately happens in fights and should probably be looked at in the off-season to clean up, but attempting to spear and injure a player from the bench is ok. Two wrongs don't make a right.