Writer and actors on STRIKE. Most main stream TV and Movies come to a stand still

[kook10]

Not to mention you have these companies giving sooooooo much money to everything else required for a show minus the writing. All you need to look at for that is that new LOTR show. They paid sooo much money for it, yet IIRC the writers were practically brand new...If you cheap out on that youre going to have a hollow show.

I gotta disagree here. TV is a showrunners medium and rarely are the showrunners not writers. Any bloat in the below the line costs other is to serve the written creative at the showrunner and directors instruction. In fact, New Zealand is one of the, if not the, least expensive place to produce film or TV. Subject matter like this is inherently expensive in that it involves creating worlds. That challenges and expenses in all categories because you can't just shop for stuff - you have to create it. Wardrobe, props, make-up, prosthetics, stunts, picture vehicles, VFX etc, etc etc. If you want cheaper BTL costs you really just have to write cheaper.

The challenge for studios is to be able to rein in creators who they have paid tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars to for overall deals. Netflix started doing this by paying huge sums of money for producers on overall deals. Now they all do it, but the studios can't say no to them when they want to inflate the creative and overall show budgets because they are auteurs. The LOTR deal is reportedly $1B so they really don't want to piss off the Tolkien Estate or Peter Jackson. Certainly they would have a blank check for the writers room and just about anything else. Often, experienced showrunners and producers don't want more voices in the room.

On a lesser but still huge scale, they wouldn't want to Kevin Feige, Ryan Murphy, Greg Berlanti, Bill Lawrence or Shonda Rhimes and have them leave to another studio or just drag their feet. The sunk investment is just too high. Those "creators" will also get their choice (demand really) of writers in the room, directors, production designers, wardrobe designers, etc. That will happen at the further expense of the budget. And because people on overall deals must work on multiple shows they often spread themselves thin and cause delays. There has already been some backlash against some big deals because of this (see JJ Abrams).

It is really the inexperienced people who get saddled with more bodies to ensure their success and maybe even get partnered with a non-writing showrunner. Studios know it lies in the scripts. That's why they now do mini-rooms instead of pilots. That means they pay for a writers' room to produce scripts before greenlighting a show because it is a better indicator of quality and cheaper than doing a pilot. The writers' issue with it is that it is shorter and often less bloated because they don't work on production's schedule with all its delays. Then, during production they keep fewer people on staff because most of the work is done. Maybe they keep one writer/producer, a staff writer, and admins in addition to the showrunner. In a pilot + series scenario they would have prep+shoot for the pilot plus prep+shoot+hiatus+xmas break+location shoots for the series production. Much more work for more people over a long period of time. That is why the WGA wants protection for mini rooms and some minimum staffing.

(sorry rambling)

 

[Peasy]

I gotta disagree here. TV is a showrunners medium and rarely are the showrunners not writers. Any bloat in the below the line costs other is to serve the written creative at the showrunner and directors instruction. In fact, New Zealand is one of the, if not the, least expensive place to produce film or TV. Subject matter like this is inherently expensive in that it involves creating worlds. That challenges and expenses in all categories because you can't just shop for stuff - you have to create it. Wardrobe, props, make-up, prosthetics, stunts, picture vehicles, VFX etc, etc etc. If you want cheaper BTL costs you really just have to write cheaper.

The challenge for studios is to be able to rein in creators who they have paid tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars to for overall deals. Netflix started doing this by paying huge sums of money for producers on overall deals. Now they all do it, but the studios can't say no to them when they want to inflate the creative and overall show budgets because they are auteurs. The LOTR deal is reportedly $1B so they really don't want to piss off the Tolkien Estate or Peter Jackson. Certainly they would have a blank check for the writers room and just about anything else. Often, experienced showrunners and producers don't want more voices in the room.

On a lesser but still huge scale, they wouldn't want to Kevin Feige, Ryan Murphy, Greg Berlanti, Bill Lawrence or Shonda Rhimes and have them leave to another studio or just drag their feet. The sunk investment is just too high. Those "creators" will also get their choice (demand really) of writers in the room, directors, production designers, wardrobe designers, etc. That will happen at the further expense of the budget. And because people on overall deals must work on multiple shows they often spread themselves thin and cause delays. There has already been some backlash against some big deals because of this (see JJ Abrams).

It is really the inexperienced people who get saddled with more bodies to ensure their success and maybe even get partnered with a non-writing showrunner. Studios know it lies in the scripts. That's why they now do mini-rooms instead of pilots. That means they pay for a writers' room to produce scripts before greenlighting a show because it is a better indicator of quality and cheaper than doing a pilot. The writers' issue with it is that it is shorter and often less bloated because they don't work on production's schedule with all its delays. Then, during production they keep fewer people on staff because most of the work is done. Maybe they keep one writer/producer, a staff writer, and admins in addition to the showrunner. In a pilot + series scenario they would have prep+shoot for the pilot plus prep+shoot+hiatus+xmas break+location shoots for the series production. Much more work for more people over a long period of time. That is why the WGA wants protection for mini rooms and some minimum staffing.

(sorry rambling)

David Simon (creator of the wire) did a great job talking about all of this.

 

[Osprey]

I gotta disagree here. TV is a showrunners medium and rarely are the showrunners not writers. Any bloat in the below the line costs other is to serve the written creative at the showrunner and directors instruction. In fact, New Zealand is one of the, if not the, least expensive place to produce film or TV. Subject matter like this is inherently expensive in that it involves creating worlds. That challenges and expenses in all categories because you can't just shop for stuff - you have to create it. Wardrobe, props, make-up, prosthetics, stunts, picture vehicles, VFX etc, etc etc. If you want cheaper BTL costs you really just have to write cheaper.

I don't think that you're disagreeing with him. The showrunners of The Rings of Power had never run a show before or even written anything that ever actually got produced. They were likely relatively cheap to hire, which probably suited Amazon because they paid so much just for the rights and would have to pay a lot for the production (the sets, costumes, CGI, etc.). It does seem like they cheaped out on the writing, which you agreed is an easy way to cut costs.

 

[kook10]

David Simon (creator of the wire) did a great job talking about all of this.

Definitely he speaks the truth, but I think he is exaggerating a little on the mini-rooms. I've never heard of a 3 week mini room but I suppose it has happened. The whole purpose is to get scripts (unless they are working on an angle for a reboot I suppose?). I've only seen them open rooms with clear deliverable and usually at least a dozen weeks. I do think likely they will get concessions/premiums for pre-greenlit writers rooms.

I think his best point in there is that they need to train more writers to be showrunners. That is the problem with having so much TV. There aren't enough skilled people to effectively run a writers room and make cohesive series. The ones on overalls are stretched thin enough that the post schedules just keep going and going since they are working on something else. Now he wants to pay for another writer to cover that. It's often longer than production itself, so I don't think they will get concessions to carry a writer through post. Some writer/creators actually have their own writers staffed through their production company because they have an overhead deal and are running their own rooms all year. They push their people onto shows when they get picked up.

I don't think that you're disagreeing with him. The showrunners of The Rings of Power had never run a show before or even written anything that ever actually got produced. They were likely relatively cheap to hire, which probably suited Amazon because they paid so much just for the rights and would have to pay a lot for the production (the sets, costumes, CGI, etc.). It does seem like they cheaped out on the writing, which you agreed is an easy way to cut costs.

6 Things To Know About the Writers of Amazon's Lord of the Rings Series

JD Payne and Patrick McKay are running the show, but you probably haven't heard of them. Here's what we found out - and what it could mean for the series.

editorial.rottentomatoes.com

I'd all but guarantee they didn't cheap out on them. How much would you think you could possibly save on showrunners for a $250M series? If Peter Jackson tells the studio to hire them, they do. Just because they hadn't released anything doesn't mean they didn't have heat on them and couldn't negotiate a deal. It is frequently seen. And more to the point, BTL Production always comes after ATL, and Post Production is dictated by the producers and approved by the studio.

This is generally the order of how a budget is created:
Inputs Necessary to even begin:
- IP / Property Rights
- Producer Deals
- Estimated Writers Room Staffing Needs from Exec Producer (they tell you what they need before they even have any clue about how long they are writing)
- Script / Creative Outline
- Cast Deals/Estimates
- Proposed Schedule (writers/production/post)
- Basic assumptions of stage vs location and any distant trips

from that you:
- find a roughly comparable budget and tweak it to apply schedule across the board to ATL/BTL/Post
- based on creative info estimate what additional sprinkling to taste you need (is it modern/period/fantasy/fashionable/specialty props & wardrobe/stunt heavy/animals/lots of extras/weapons/foreign/green screen/virtual production/etc etc)
- use that to draft a first pass

then you submit to the producers, take their notes and draft another dozen passes or more always with their approval. it is procedurally their budget that gets approved by the studio (and submitted to the network if its a third party). then it gets greenlit and actual episodic budgets are written against that greenlit/locked "pattern" budget.

On top of all that, a project would like LOTR would almost certainly not have a target budget # like most shows, and if it did it would be astronomical.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

ay kook10,

just been watching hell's kitchen lately and made me wonder about something. based upon your more than basic understanding of the writers' strike i figured maybe you can answer below (are you in the industry or something?)

the amateur cooks on hell's kitchen, their roles are actually real, as they are, for the most part, do work as cooks. however, technically they're not actors.

if these shows were to be show on syndication reruns would these cooks be receiving residual checks? in order to receive those checks wouldn't they have to register with SAG?

 

[kook10]

ay kook10,

just been watching hell's kitchen lately and made me wonder about something. based upon your more than basic understanding of the writers' strike i figured maybe you can answer below (are you in the industry or something?)

the amateur cooks on hell's kitchen, their roles are actually real, as they are, for the most part, do work as cooks. however, technically they're not actors.

if these shows were to be show on syndication reruns would these cooks be receiving residual checks? in order to receive those checks wouldn't they have to register with SAG?

Yea I am in the industry,

Not sure about Hell's Kitchen in particular, but different companies/reality shows will compensate differently because labor laws get funky and reality folks can be slimy. But, generally speaking no - reality show participants or competition show contestants are not actors. In most cases they are basically treated as volunteers who participate at will. Otherwise they need to be paid overtime and as employees. I think on some shows - where they are required to stick around after being eliminated from the competition or they are the star or actually the "prize" (like the Bachelor or something similar) - they do become SAG/AFTRA and would get residuals. It also depends on what company is producing it and if that company is signatory to guild agreements that affect it.

That said, they often get expenses paid and companies might give them some back door compensation and call it a stipend or honorarium (both of which aren't technically legal), or even pay minimum wage+OT to stay on the right side of labor. I haven't worked in unscripted for a good few years, but was involved in a bunch of non major network shows. The unions and guilds continuously try to go after reality TV too so may I be behind.

 

[RobBrown4PM]

I still remember the writers strike in 2007/2008? It's effects on BSG final season were quite apparent, and not in any good way.

 

[MadDevil]

I still remember the writers strike in 2007/2008? It's effects on BSG final season were quite apparent, and not in any good way.

Friday Night Lights (season two?) as well. That was the season Landry killed a guy.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

A friend in the industry said they inadvertently discovered the change over from HBO Max to Max.

They had a friend getting residuals from a show on HBO/HBO Max. However now that it has switched to Max they’ll no longer receive residuals as the deal was for airing/streaming on HBO/HBO Max. And HBO Max doesn’t exist anymore.

So basically you’ll never talk me out of siding with the writers.

 

[HolyGhost]

I still remember the writers strike in 2007/2008? It's effects on BSG final season were quite apparent, and not in any good way.

how it ended was telegraphed. Like How I met your mother being dead. I am 999% sure they always had the ending in mind

 

[Jussi]

A friend in the industry said they inadvertently discovered the change over from HBO Max to Max.

They had a friend getting residuals from a show on HBO/HBO Max. However now that it has switched to Max they’ll no longer receive residuals as the deal was for airing/streaming on HBO/HBO Max. And HBO Max doesn’t exist anymore.

So basically you’ll never talk me out of siding with the writers.

Plus the whole "creators" thing which apparently is going to take weeks to fix.

 

[PANARIN BREAD FAN]

A friend in the industry said they inadvertently discovered the change over from HBO Max to Max.

They had a friend getting residuals from a show on HBO/HBO Max. However now that it has switched to Max they’ll no longer receive residuals as the deal was for airing/streaming on HBO/HBO Max. And HBO Max doesn’t exist anymore.

So basically you’ll never talk me out of siding with the writers.

so what about receiving residuals from hbo or max if that show is being aired/streamed on either channel?

 

[HolyGhost]

how writers have been treated is nothing new. Aaron Sorkin and the West Wing, until he was fired by NBC is an example. Sorkin ran the show and took credit for a lot of stuff writers did

 

[HolyGhost]

A friend in the industry said they inadvertently discovered the change over from HBO Max to Max.

They had a friend getting residuals from a show on HBO/HBO Max. However now that it has switched to Max they’ll no longer receive residuals as the deal was for airing/streaming on HBO/HBO Max. And HBO Max doesn’t exist anymore.

So basically you’ll never talk me out of siding with the writers.

100% in correct. HBO max to max example is incorrect. Netflix is the better example. If you work for netflix you get a one time payment. Netflix can sell the show an screw over the writer.
The problem is with how the contracts are put together. Actors are in the same boat and it will be the next great battle. On line streamers pay more money up front to keep away any monies on the back end.
This is like publishing rights for a song. Money has always been in publishing rights.

The rules have changed and writers are fighting for the right when a show is bought and sold that the original contracts are to be honoured. I know writers as well and it is the streaming rights that are the battle ground. HBO max can become Max or fu*kme.com. it does not matter a simple change of a streaming service does not matter. If a product was created for said streaming service--writers and actors are screwed.

This is were the music publishing rights thing kicks in. For many years owning the publishing rights was the thing. Royalties to song writers for the past 20 years have gone the way of the do do bird.

Contracts for production for streaming services are pretty straight forward. One off payment. What about Homicide life in the street? Contracts signed did not cover streaming and that is the problem. The products become like publishing rights, It is about who owns shares of the rights?

there is a bigger picture and the royalty rights rules have changed.

Writers are fighting for a share of the publishing rights of the product and producers are fighting against that

Brooklyn 99 was one of the first shows to be partly financed by a streaming service. Because WGA contracts did not cover streaming services, the producers were able to keep the money of the selling of the show and the writers got screwed.

Long ramble short

TV show A--sets sold to netflix for 5 years for 100mill--writers get nothing. 5 years later--show gets sold to Amazon for 100 Mill-writers get nothing, 5 years later gets sold to Paramount + for 100 million--writers get nothing. The people who own the show get everything and not the guys who wrote it.

People who write and create music have the same problem. Unless you control the publishing rights--you are screwed

 

[Osprey]

A friend in the industry said they inadvertently discovered the change over from HBO Max to Max.

They had a friend getting residuals from a show on HBO/HBO Max. However now that it has switched to Max they’ll no longer receive residuals as the deal was for airing/streaming on HBO/HBO Max. And HBO Max doesn’t exist anymore.

So basically you’ll never talk me out of siding with the writers.

I find that a little hard to believe. First, it seems unlikely that a deal wouldn't account for a simple rebrand, especially when HBO had already changed its subscription service from HBO On Demand to HBO Go to HBO Now to HBO Max. Second, it'd likely be a big stink and we wouldn't be hearing it first from a friend of a friend. Third, if the residuals would've gone away by now, there would've been much less reason to remove hundreds of shows from HBO Max in the last 6+ months, and they'd now be on Max instead of still unavailable.

 

[Jussi]

I find that a little hard to believe. First, it seems unlikely that a deal wouldn't account for a simple rebrand, especially when HBO had already changed its subscription service from HBO On Demand to HBO Go to HBO Now to HBO Max. Second, it'd likely be a big stink and we wouldn't be hearing it first from a friend of a friend. Third, if the residuals would've gone away by now, there would've been much less reason to remove hundreds of shows from HBO Max in the last 6+ months, and they'd now be on Max instead of still unavailable.

It sounds like it might be a case with a specific show, not all content.

 

[kook10]

Are Streaming Residuals Being Slashed? As WGA’s Own Data Shows, It’s Complicated

Residuals are major focal point for the Writers Guild's negotiations with producers, but the topic is more complex when one looking at the WGA’s own financials.

deadline.com

I am guessing one of the bigger sticking points is actually transparency on the viewership numbers. Streamers don't want to open up their black box. The WGA wants their flat payments and also wants to be rewarded for success based on viewership.

But because viewership numbers don't necessarily correlate to subscriber numbers or revenues it would be tough to work an arrangement that wouldn't be akin to either fixed payment anyway. That is - I could see an agreed upon/'capped annual residual base that gets divvied up based on success or profit sharing (which would never happen). I could, however, see some way to make provisions for the growing segment of ad-supported services, but not all AMPTP members are pursuing that, so it would be politically tough.

 

[archangel2]

And the creativity starts

Law & Order: Criminal Intent Spinoff Set in Toronto Has Been Ordered to Series

The 'Law & Order: Criminal Intent' franchise is expanding to Canada — get the details!

tvline.com

 

[archangel2]

I find that a little hard to believe. First, it seems unlikely that a deal wouldn't account for a simple rebrand, especially when HBO had already changed its subscription service from HBO On Demand to HBO Go to HBO Now to HBO Max. Second, it'd likely be a big stink and we wouldn't be hearing it first from a friend of a friend. Third, if the residuals would've gone away by now, there would've been much less reason to remove hundreds of shows from HBO Max in the last 6+ months, and they'd now be on Max instead of still unavailable.

Rebrand no. Selling of product maybe. Sounds like MAX is a different business entity entirely and HBO MAX sold them their library. Hollywood math. Ghostbusters the original movie us still 500 mill in debt.

 

[Jussi]

Directors Guild Reaches Tentative Deal With Studios and Streamers

The agreement includes gains in wages and benefits, streaming residuals, AI protections and more and comes as the Writers Guild of America remains on strike.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[Osprey]

Rebrand no. Selling of product maybe. Sounds like MAX is a different business entity entirely and HBO MAX sold them their library. Hollywood math. Ghostbusters the original movie us still 500 mill in debt.

It sounds to me like it's the same service, just re-branded in America (for now) and with added content. From Wikipedia:

Max, or HBO Max outside the United States,[a] is an American subscription video on-demand (SVOD) over-the-top streaming service. It is the property of WarnerMedia Direct, LLC, a unit owned by Warner Bros. Discovery Global Streaming & Interactive Entertainment, which is itself a division of Warner Bros. Discovery (WBD). First launched in the United States on May 27, 2020 (as HBO Max), the service eventually came to offer content from the libraries of Warner Bros., Discovery Channel, HBO, CNN, Cartoon Network, Adult Swim, Animal Planet, Eurosport, and their related brands. The service also carries first-run original programming under the "Max Originals" banner, programming from the HBO pay television service, and content acquired via either third-party library deals (such as those with film studios for pay television rights) or co-production agreements (including, among others, those with BBC Studios and Sesame Workshop).

The [a] footnote adds "The version of the service available in the United States was renamed "Max" on May 23, 2023. Versions of the service available in regions outside the United States retained the "HBO Max" name, and are expected to do so until 2024."

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

A friend in the industry said they inadvertently discovered the change over from HBO Max to Max.

They had a friend getting residuals from a show on HBO/HBO Max. However now that it has switched to Max they’ll no longer receive residuals as the deal was for airing/streaming on HBO/HBO Max. And HBO Max doesn’t exist anymore.

So basically you’ll never talk me out of siding with the writers.

 

[Satans Hockey]

Seems like it's not true though...

Fact Check: HBO Max NOT Freed From Screenwriter Fees By 'Suddenly' Changing Name To 'Simply Max' | Lead Stories

Does HBO Max "suddenly" changing "their name to simply Max" mean "the company won't have to pay residuals" to screenwriters?...

leadstories.com

 

[NyQuil]

Don't worry, I asked Chat GPT to write an SNL sketch about the Writer's Strike.

(Keep in mind that Chat GPT is stuck in 2021)

Title: "The SNL Sketch Strike"

[INT. SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE WRITERS' ROOM - DAY]

[The room is bustling with activity as the SNL writers discuss sketch ideas, type furiously on their laptops, and share laughter.]

[Enter LORNE MICHAELS, the show's producer, with a concerned expression.]

LORNE MICHAELS (elevated voice) Attention, everyone! We have a situation. The writers' union has gone on strike!

[The room falls into stunned silence, followed by nervous whispers.]

WRITER #1 (disbelief) But... but who will come up with the hilarious sketches now?

WRITER #2 (panicking) Oh no! Without us, SNL will be as funny as a silent movie marathon!

[Enter KATE McKINNON, AIDY BRYANT, and KENAN THOMPSON, SNL cast members.]

KATE McKINNON (confused) What's going on, Lorne?

LORNE MICHAELS (explaining) The writers are on strike, Kate. It means we won't have any new sketches to perform this week.

AIDY BRYANT (raising her hand) Wait! Can we ad-lib? We're pretty funny, too!

KENAN THOMPSON (nodding) Yeah, we can improvise some hilarious skits on the spot!

LORNE MICHAELS (reluctant) I appreciate your enthusiasm, but without the writers, it might be challenging.

[The cast members huddle together, whispering and gesturing animatedly.]

KATE McKINNON (excitedly) What if we perform sketches that are all about... the writers being on strike?

AIDY BRYANT (smirking) Meta humor! We can make fun of ourselves while keeping the show going.

KENAN THOMPSON (grinning) And we can even bring in some surprise guest writers to help us out.

LORNE MICHAELS (pensively) Alright, let's give it a shot. This could be a disaster or a stroke of genius.

[INT. SNL STUDIO - LATER]

[The stage is set with signs and picket lines. The audience murmurs with anticipation.]

ANNOUNCER (loudly) Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the cast of Saturday Night Live, with special guest writers!

[The cast members, joined by a group of quirky celebrity guest writers, step onto the stage amid applause.]

KATE McKINNON (addressing the audience) Ladies and gentlemen, due to the writers' strike, tonight's episode will be a little different.

AIDY BRYANT (grinning) That's right! We'll be performing some improvisational comedy tonight, featuring our amazing cast and these incredible surprise guest writers!

KENAN THOMPSON (raising his hand) I'm Kenan Thompson, and I'll be your strike leader tonight!

[The audience erupts in laughter.]

[The cast members and guest writers dive into a series of hilarious sketches, inventing scenes, characters, and punchlines on the fly.]

[INT. WRITERS' ROOM - LATER]

[The striking writers gather around a TV, watching their cast and guest writers perform on SNL.]

WRITER #1 (teary-eyed) I can't believe they pulled it off. They made it funny!

WRITER #2 (grinning) Our sketches may be on strike, but our humor isn't!

[The room fills with applause and laughter as they cheer on their colleagues on screen.]

[INT. SNL STUDIO - LATER]

[The cast members and guest writers take a bow, basking in the uproar).

 

[Jumptheshark]

One of the big issues is the short term contracts writers now sign to be part of the writers room. Most shows use them now. I will use NCIS as an example. One of the writers for that show gave an interview, where he had a 8 week contract to write for the show but he saw some of his ideas appear over 15 episodes. Some shows still pay per script but more and more use the writer rooms with short term contracts.