Proposal: Wpg - det - ana
- Thread starter Thorburnt
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JetsHomer
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No because the stats and eye test say so.
So not only did you not watch Trouba, but you never even looked at his stats hahaha
So not only did you not watch Trouba, but you never even looked at his stats hahaha
Yes, that's obviously what happened.
JetsHomer
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Yes, that's obviously what happened.
It is in fact very obvious. Trouba was far better than Fowler at literally every single metric last year, with the exception of PP assists.
So if Trouba was 'bad' than I assume in your opinion Fowler is abysmal and not even an NHL quality player?
I'm not even comparing Trouba with Fowler, I'm saying that Trouba this season was really bad compared to his previous years. That's a statement that is confirmed by the stats and the eye test. He definitely wasn't at a top pairing D-man this year and I don't think you can say he was in previous years simply because he wasn't facing top quality opposition.
JetsHomer
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What 'stats' are you looking at exactly? Assist and goal totals?
So much wrong with your post. Trouba faced tough competition his second and third year and has improved defensively every single year he has been in the league
Don't say Trouba was bad by the eye test when you obviously don't watch him play. Those of us that do will just laugh at your blatent ignorance
It's absolutely hilarious how wrong you are, while you're so sure you're right. I like when its about Fowler advanced stats are "garbage" and they don't tell the true story because after all Fowler plays for the Ducks and therefore in mytduxfan opinion he literally can't be bad. But Trouba (who is better at literally every metric) is bad because "trust me I watch him play A TONNE"
Watching Trouba get walked by Etem one time during the playoffs doesn't count as 'watching a tonne' and after reading more and more of your posts its incredibly clear that is what you are basing your opinion on.
Can you explain to me how Trouba (who has faced tough comp for two years and steadily beaten those minutes) is "bad" while Fowler (who plays easier minutes and gets absolutely obliterated by them) is "a top pairing defeceman"
Feel free to use either stats or actual criticisms of Trouba's game to explain how you think he was bad last season and how you feel he could improve not just "I watch trust me". I had a bad day at work, I could use a good laugh
This post doesn't address how a drop in Trouba's Corsi stats and scoring in his 3rd season = he's better then he was in his 2nd season. He was awful this passed season. You're not giving any facts that counter such a statement.
I watched him a tonne, he was playing at a #4 level all season.
JetsHomer
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Even if he didn't improve his relative stats from his second to third year that doesn't address how you seem to think his numbers were awful? they were far better than Fowler's and fairly close to Lindholm's. Trouba's lack of progression from his second third in regards to his possession numbers can be explained by the Mark Staurt factor. Stuart was never a good player, but last year he went from bad to terrible.
WhatTheDuck
9 - 20 - 8
Huffer
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CaptainChef
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http://public.tableau.com/shared/Z6NTB9844?:display_count=yes
Attached hero charts suggest that Trouba is indeed in the same league as Lindholm. Not on par, but as has been indicated by many having Stuart as your main partner would ground anybody down to their lowest level.
If you'd like to see how bad Stuart's performance numbers are: http://public.tableau.com/shared/W23RNT375?:display_count=yes
Do you seriously think Lindholm or anyone could have positive numbers playing with somebody like that who isn't even worthy of being called a bottom pairing D?
Warrior charts are a ****ing joke, but even that stupid thing you posted shows that Lindholm is the superior player AINEC. Lindholm literally smashes Trouba in 5 out of 8 categories and beats him in 6 out of 8. Trouba only beats Lindholm in the other 2 categories, goal scoring and shot generation, and he only just beats Lindholm. Goal scoring and shot generation are also two of the least important stats for a D-man. Lindholm >>> Trouba. Get over it.
FAIL!!!
If that argument isn't usable for Fowler, who has played with Bieksa, one of the worst D-men on the planet, then I'm not going to accept it for Trouba. Good players are good regardless of who they play with... at least that's what I'm being told by all the stat watchers on this damn forum.
Fowler has also played on a team who, despite their success, has had possession stats in the lower half of the league for the passed 4 seasons. However, for some reason, he's supposed to have amazing possession stats. Seems legit
.Check the dumb Warrior Chart in troubabooster's post. It beautifully shows how Trouba's improvements in his 2-way game has resulted in him still being awful defensively with terrible shot suppression and possession numbers. WPG fan bloggers can make all the excuses they want, but the numbers don't lie. Trouba was bad this passed season.
***This is what I've been told by all those who say Fowler is terrible based on his possession stats***
Huffer
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Trouba wasn't bad this past season. If you want to believe it, knock yourself out.
I'll take the analysis of the "WPG fan Blogger" (who actually makes a living in advanced stats analysis btw) though.
CaptainChef
Registered User
If that argument isn't usable for Fowler, who has played with Bieksa, one of the worst D-men on the planet, then I'm not going to accept it for Trouba. Good players are good regardless of who they play with... at least that's what I'm being told by all the stat watchers on this damn forum.
Fowler has also played on a team who, despite their success, has had possession stats in the lower half of the league for the passed 4 seasons. However, for some reason, he's supposed to have amazing possession stats. Seems legit
Check the dumb Warrior Chart in troubabooster's post. It beautifully shows how Trouba's improvements in his 2-way game has resulted in him still being awful defensively with terrible shot suppression and possession numbers. WPG fan bloggers can make all the excuses they want, but the numbers don't lie. Trouba was bad this passed season.
***
http://public.tableau.com/shared/N9M3YMR34?:display_count=yes
I know you don't believe stats unless they support what you think, but how can you think in your wildest imagination that Bieksa (indicated as a "complete top 4 D") is anywhere close to being as bad as Stuart (indicated generously as a "bottom pairing shutdown D").
I'm sure you'll have no comment to Garret's detailed Arctic Ice analysis of why Trouba has actually improved as a D-man either, because I don't think those statistical numbers support your viewpoint.
By the way, nobody is saying that Lindholm's current numbers don't portray him as a slightly better D than Trouba, just belittling your comments that it isn't even close & that playing with Bieksa equates to playing with Stuart.
See, now that's how you argue your point on HF Boards. If the data doesn't support your conclusion, discard the data.
Sojourn
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- Nov 1, 2006
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CaptainChef
Registered User
So we've presented several different statistical arguments and detailed analyses that show why there isn't a huge difference between Trouba & Lindholm (and that much of this difference relates to useage -- ie, not much time on the PP & having to play with a trainwreck of a playing partner).
So far all I've seen for arguments to counter that is Lindholm>>>Trouba lol.
There's a lot more numbers than HERO charts that indicate Trouba is close to Lindholm's level. Lindholm is awesome and better than Trouba now, but its wrong to say Trouba isn't in that ball park.
Trouba has not regressed since his rookie year, he has improved every year.
By the way, for mytduxfan just because I'm a grammar nut:
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=past vs passed
Sojourn
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I'm not trying to suggest Trouba isn't in the same ballpark. Lindholm is better, but Trouba is very good as well.
HERO charts are just nonsense.
KaseMeOutside
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If I only looked at your chart to evaluate Trouba and Lindholm, my conclusion would be Lindholm is a much better player.
You want to talk about D partners, well Lindholm played the entire year with Kevin Bieksa and a rookie so as bad as Stuart may be, Lindholm did not exactly have ideal partners either.
Vipers31
Advanced Stagnostic
I'm a big critic of usage of stats in ways like those charts, but if one was going by them, I don't see how that suggests they are in the same league, unless by league you mean "NHL" or "non-bad". They're basically saying one of them is a #1.5D and the other a #3.5D. That kind of difference is generally described as a different league.
