Would you be OK with Sid/Geno playing for another NHL team?

[Night Shift]

both need to retire as Penguins

Tip of iceburgh Podcast restarts. Tip of iceburgh podcasts identifies cooling fans.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Of course. I'm a big proponent of Stanley Cup championships for the Pittsburgh Penguins, and the fastest way back to that is scorched earth rebuilding.
Not a believer in prioritizing the core's feelings and optics related to them, at the cost of slowing down the return to contention for Cups.
I'd rather the organization use the time in a more intelligent manner in 2024/25.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

55 core-3 fans
27 Penguins fans

It's kind of weird being on a so-called Pens forum, yet have the majority not care about the results of the team.
Huge turn-off for discussion.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Is it weird? Or is it weird to root for an empty jersey?

The players ARE the team. And Sid, Letang and Malkin are about as top tier of players as this team has ever had. I don't know why this is hard for some people.

EDIT: considering how much we get lectured by resident hall monitors for being "too negative" I don't think your "doesn't care about results of the team" comment holds much water, either. Frankly if you are even HERE you almost certainly care.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hey look @AuroraBorealis gatekeeping Penguins discussion / fandom.

What's next? Green Day isn't "actually punk".

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Is it weird? Or is it weird to root for an empty jersey?

The players ARE the team. And Sid, Letang and Malkin are about as top tier of players as this team has ever had. I don't know why this is hard for some people.

Okay? So build a new core, one people can get behind and can usher in a new era of contention?
Clearly this core's no longer gonna bring any more Cups in these last 4 years or w/e, if they can even win a round.
Everything has an end point in this life. You gotta know when to call it, or face self-destruction. The Pens are at that point now.
Only fools invest in lost causes.

EDIT: considering how much we get lectured by resident hall monitors for being "too negative" I don't think your "doesn't care about results of the team" comment holds much water, either.

How? lmao
The majority are willing to burn 4-5 years of the organization for the retirement tour. The vote just proved it.
So then how can those people at the same time say they care about the results of the team?
They don't, at all. They are content with futility, like the bullshit the last 2 years yielded.
Maybe one day they will again, but they certainly don't now. Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting this fence-sitting, bubble-out, idiotic direction.

Frankly if you are even HERE you almost certainly care.

Fleetingly these days. Less and less. Largely habitual.
Yeah, I still care about the team winning over feelings of a small contingent of players. Made that clear.
I mostly just wanna talk to the people who feel the same way. There's still some here. 27 voted the right way. The insanity hasn't taken root entirely yet.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Okay? So build a new core, one people can get behind and can usher in a new era of contention?
Clearly this core's no longer gonna bring any more Cups in these last 4 years or w/e, if they can even win a round.
Everything has an end point in this life. You gotta know when to call it, or face self-destruction. The Pens are at that point now.
Only fools invest in lost causes.


How? lmao
The majority are willing to burn 4-5 years of the organization for the retirement tour. The vote just proved it.
So then how can those people at the same time say they care about the results of the team?
They don't, at all. They are content with futility, like the bullshit the last 2 years yielded.
Maybe one day they will again, but they certainly don't now. Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting this fence-sitting, bubble-out, idiotic direction.


Fleetingly these days. Less and less. Largely habitual.
Yeah, I still care about the team winning over feelings of a small contingent of players. Made that clear.
I mostly just wanna talk to the people who feel the same way. There's still some here. 27 voted the right way. The insanity hasn't taken root entirely yet.

You want an echo chamber? Why? Is that productive?

As for the rest it's so unbelievably cynical and divorced of the emotion, humanity and zest that makes being a fan of anything worthwhile that I don't know where to begin, honestly. This assumption that you just "build a new core" by snapping your fingers is a fallacy... this could be a Buffalo situation way easier than it could be a Penguins mark 2.0 situation. Also trying to lecture a message board about the "reality of the situation" when everyone is already very aware comes off pretty arrogant.

"The vote" indicates only that people... fans... prefer that the core retire in Pittsburgh because despite you pounding your chest about at every opportunity it IS important and legacy DOES matter. I get that you don't care. We all get you don't care. But that doesn't make it silly or irrelevant. Perhaps it just makes you wrong.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Like... think of it this way. Say you did a big, tough cold, calculating business man alpha bro move and told the core to f*** off... when... two seasons ago, lets say? Maybe in the process you squeeze some assets out of them... a first or two maybe a decent prospect. They all have trade clauses and will be able to have huge leverage in where they go, when and for what. You then do the Arizona Coyotes thing a couple years early instead of (evidently) this year and proceed to tank. Or whatever tanking even is in the modern game.

So you've gotten "ahead" of the rebuild a couple of seasons early and have maybe gotten a few extra assets out of it. Is that really worth the fallout? Is it worth permanently tarnishing the reputation of a team that you claim to care so much more than all of us about? Really?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I find it funny that the same posters that whine "everyone is biased except for me" when they get criticized also whine about the quality of discussion on this website. Might be a look in the mirror situation, don't you think?

 

[Gurglesons]

Like... think of it this way. Say you did a big, tough cold, calculating business man alpha bro move and told the core to f*** off... when... two seasons ago, lets say? Maybe in the process you squeeze some assets out of them... a first or two maybe a decent prospect. They all have trade clauses and will be able to have huge leverage in where they go, when and for what. You then do the Arizona Coyotes thing a couple years early instead of (evidently) this year and proceed to tank. Or whatever tanking even is in the modern game.

So you've gotten "ahead" of the rebuild a couple of seasons early and have maybe gotten a few extra assets out of it. Is that really worth the fallout? Is it worth permanently tarnishing the reputation of a team that you claim to care so much more than all of us about? Really?

Imagine the 2nd round picks.

I was all for moving on from Letang and trading Rust / Zucker at the deadlines.

Team looks a whole lot different if we gave up Letang and kept Marino IMO even as someone that hates Marino.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Discussion goes by way of the teams success or lack thereof. There's no actual timeline of an actual "rebuild date". They are in the process of leading up to one that can be 3/4 years in the future. They are not actually in one at the moment.

Rushing a rebuild after committing to the core 4 could see them missing out on the top 5 picks they need for a rebuild.

They will need to be fully committed one way or the other. They are in the leading up to one faze. The promised let them slowly fade away romance tour is in full effect.

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Sid: "I don't take shit from no one, I'm staying in Pittsburgh!"

 

[ChaosAgent]

Okay? So build a new core, one people can get behind and can usher in a new era of contention?
Clearly this core's no longer gonna bring any more Cups in these last 4 years or w/e, if they can even win a round.
Everything has an end point in this life. You gotta know when to call it, or face self-destruction. The Pens are at that point now.
Only fools invest in lost causes.

How? lmao
The majority are willing to burn 4-5 years of the organization for the retirement tour. The vote just proved it.
So then how can those people at the same time say they care about the results of the team?
They don't, at all. They are content with futility, like the bullshit the last 2 years yielded.
Maybe one day they will again, but they certainly don't now. Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting this fence-sitting, bubble-out, idiotic direction.

How is having Evgeni Malkin scoring 65 points at 2C causing cosmic strife in a rebuilding scenario? Even on bad teams it's not like every single player sucks. Ditto Letang at 2RD.

If they're out of it and have opportunities to sell high on Petts, Rust, Jarry and Karlsson and don't do it, then I will be miffed. But as of now the only guy who is losing value is Petts, and the value drop is marginal at best vs the deadline.

I also think hardcore tanking is a very risky proposition because players get habituated to losing. Look at Buffalo for instance. I think the likeliest scenario is we keep these guys, trade at least Petts and EK in the next year and get ready to be a bottom 10 team regardless.

The one caveat that would bring your existential crisis into play is if Crosby mandates they keep going for it for him to stay. If they cave into that and start trading future 1sts for 2025's Kapanens/ Zuckers/Brassards just to try to sneak into the 8 seed, then I think a lot of folks would go onto your side

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You want an echo chamber? Why? Is that productive?

As for the rest it's so unbelievably cynical and divorced of the emotion, humanity and zest that makes being a fan of anything worthwhile that I don't know where to begin, honestly. This assumption that you just "build a new core" by snapping your fingers is a fallacy... this could be a Buffalo situation way easier than it could be a Penguins mark 2.0 situation. Also trying to lecture a message board about the "reality of the situation" when everyone is already very aware comes off pretty arrogant.

"The vote" indicates only that people... fans... prefer that the core retire in Pittsburgh because despite you pounding your chest about at every opportunity it IS important and legacy DOES matter. I get that you don't care. We all get you don't care. But that doesn't make it silly or irrelevant. Perhaps it just makes you wrong.

It's not that their legacy is irrelevant. It's that the needs of the team matter MORE. They are only 3 of 19 who take the ice every night.

You wanna talk divorce from emotions? Seriously? You guys are asking for like 4 unnecessary seasons of futility, where you know they won't win shit and that they are decelerating the process back to contention.
Nothing fun or exciting about that. And last I checked people watch hockey for the thrills and entertainment.

Where did I say it's a guarantee that you land that new core? It's simply something you have to attempt, if you wanna get to the top.
They should start on this process immediately, since the objective of sports teams should be to win championships.

Those people you're talking about are fans. I never denied that. They're just fans of 3 players, not of the team itself.
The rest of the roster are irrelevant to them.

And no, I don't think people are aware of just how much it hurts the prospect pool if you re-sign Sid. Because it's not just the return for him, but also everything else you could have done with that 39 mil over 4 years.
Re-signing him is spitting on the need to develop our farm system. It's the actions of an unserious team.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

It's not that their legacy is irrelevant. It's that the needs of the team matter MORE. They are only 3 of 19 who take the ice every night.

You wanna talk divorce from emotions? Seriously? You guys are asking for like 4 unnecessary seasons of futility, where you know they won't win shit and that they are decelerating the process back to contention.
Nothing fun or exciting about that. And last I checked people watch hockey for the thrills and entertainment.

Where did I say it's a guarantee that you land that new core? It's simply something you have to attempt, if you wanna get to the top.
They should start on this process immediately, since the objective of sports teams should be to win championships.

Those people you're talking about are fans. I never denied that. They're just fans of 3 players, not of the team itself.
The rest of the roster are irrelevant to them.

And no, I don't think people are aware of just how much it hurts the prospect pool if you re-sign Sid. Because it's not just the return for him, but also everything else you could have done with that 39 mil over 4 years.
Re-signing him is spitting on the need to develop our farm system. It's the actions of an unserious team.

The worst thing they could do is not delay the rebuild. The worst thing they can do is try to shorten the rebuild, and end up in purgatory. Aging, high paid players are very useful towards slowly bottoming out.

You need a long term plan to build a regular contender, you are engaging in too much short term thinking, ironically, as you push to start the rebuild now. There's nothing the Penguins can do right now, you have to accept that.

If you "try" to rebuild and end up with a core like the Nashville Predators, you are much farther from a cup than the team who took their time and became bad naturally.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

How is having Evgeni Malkin scoring 65 points at 2C causing cosmic strife in a rebuilding scenario? Even on bad teams it's not like every single player sucks. Ditto Letang at 2RD.

If they're out of it and have opportunities to sell high on Petts, Rust, Jarry and Karlsson and don't do it, then I will be miffed. But as of now the only guy who is losing value is Petts, and the value drop is marginal at best vs the deadline.

I also think hardcore tanking is a very risky proposition because players get habituated to losing. Look at Buffalo for instance. I think the likeliest scenario is we keep these guys, trade at least Petts and EK in the next year and get ready to be a bottom 10 team regardless.

The one caveat that would bring your existential crisis into play is if Crosby mandates they keep going for it for him to stay. If they cave into that and start trading future 1sts for 2025's Kapanen/ Zuckers/Brassards just to try to sneak into the 8 seed, then I think a lot of folks would go onto your side

This is more about Sid than those 2. Letang's contract is brutal, and Geno only has 12.6 million or w/e left. You won't get much in a trade at his age, and I'm not sure he would even want to play for another NHL team. He might choose Russia.

Whereas Sid will have 39 million left if he gets re-signed, and way more value in a trade. Keeping him is a dire blow to the prospect pool.

I'm on the side of the team and winning championships. We know they're not gonna achieve another Cup with Sid here, so that makes it very clear what should be done.
Just because teams are managed horrifically by clueless GMs and owners (like with Buffalo), does not mean no one should attempt scorched earth again.
Dubas would do it better, 100%.
And even if the rebuild fails, you have to try if you're a serious team, given the state of our farm.
What they're doing now isn't gonna lead to Cups. For sure. So you do what you gotta do. There's no viable alternatives here if you seek Cups. The foundation is too weak.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Just because teams are managed horrifically by clueless GMs and owners (like with Buffalo), does not mean no one should attempt scorched earth again.
Dubas would do it better, 100%.

The problem with scorched earth is you can't keep your top 5 picks in college/the minors to marinate. Unless they're in Russia under contract like Malkin was. It's expected they make the team straight away, so you epically suck with them for a few years because it's a core that's 18-20 playing against grown men.

Losing and being okay with losing - even cheering on losing - weighs on the psyche of the players.

I think we'll be bad without capitulating and a few very high picks will come regardless.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The worst thing they could do is not delay the rebuild. The worst thing they can do is try to shorten the rebuild, and end up in purgatory. Aging, high paid players are very useful towards slowly bottoming out.

You need a long term plan to build a regular contender, you are engaging in too much short term thinking, ironically, as you push to start the rebuild now. There's nothing the Penguins can do right now, you have to accept that.

If you "try" to rebuild and end up with a core like the Nashville Predators, you are much farther from a cup than the team who took their time and became bad naturally.

The timing on when you pull the trigger on attempting actual contention and become satisfied with the new core is up to the team. They control that. There's no need for it to be premature, if they're capable of assessing their own players and situation.

I never said it has to be ready in 4 years. All I'm saying is you cannot let 4-5 years pass while opting not to improve their assets as much as they can along the way. The team needs it, badly.

We just did the whole futility dance for 2 years and have very little to show for it. Now people want 3-4 more unserious years.

I don't believe at all that there's nothing they can do right now. That's nonsense. Sid would accept a trade if asked. Then you got that 39 million you woulda wasted that you can use on futures. You can trade Petts, Bunting.
Maybe Rust would waive if he sees Sid gone.
You can trade EK at 50%. Puustinen, DoC at the deadline. Etc...

And any cap space you have after all this should all be used in taking on bad contracts for more futures.

This time can be used productively, instead of prioritizing selfish feelings over the good of the team.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

The problem with scorched earth is you can't keep your top 5 picks in college/the minors to marinate. Unless they're in Russia under contract like Malkin was. It's expected they make the team straight away, so you epically suck with them for a few years because it's a core that's 18-20 playing against grown men.

Losing and being okay with losing - even cheering on losing - weighs on the psyche of the players.

I think we'll be bad without capitulating and a few very high picks will come regardless.

That's why you ask for picks in years that will align with the team's trajectory.
2025 is an exception, because it's a very strong draft class. So even if a player works out for you from 2025, you simply trade them during the 2nd or 3rd year of their ELC, and get something notable back that will help you when you are ready.
Besides, making the team at 18 as a regular, even for 1sts, is uncommon. Four 2023 1sts played 40+ games last year. 27 of them played 0 games.

I'm not worried about the psyche of players who won't be here when the team is ready to contend again. The majority of them would be here a very brief time.
Ideally your whole roster is comprised of players with bad contracts and little value anyway, during that time. They are a means to an end, because you should take on bad contracts for futures.
This is just a transient phase, one that all serious teams need to go through at some point. That's the system the NHL forces upon you.

A few very high picks might come, but they'll be coming later than is necessary. Also the team should not reduce the amount of 1sts, 2nds and 3rds they can potentially receive, for the sake of improving the chances of a successful transition. That would be foolish, and pointless. They should take everything they can get.
I mean, Yager is likely our best prospect right now. Maybe Blomqvist.
Obviously the situation is dire, and they can't afford to hold back on replenishing this farm.

 

[Gurglesons]

When I look at the last 5 cup winners, I don't see teams that "rebuilded".

Tampa attempted to be competitive throughout the window where they acquired Stamkos and Herman.

Colorado attempted to be competitive when they acquired MacKinnon and Makar.

Vegas has no top 5 picks.

Florida had 4 drafted players on their cup winning team and you can say that Huberdeau for Tkachuk was part of that, but I think the point still stands.

Successful cup winners haven't been made by "rebuilding" since arguably the LA Kings and Hawks.

The 15-16 and 16-17 Penguins were largely winners because of their creative management and trading to acquire players like Bonino, Kessel, etc.

The teams that have "rebuilded" in the last 10 years are Buffalo, New Jersey, New York, Montreal, Columbus, Arizona, and Edmonton. They've combined for one SCF that they lost and most of those teams are not making the playoffs.

It's a different league then what it was when Sid and Malkin were drafted. Expecting the team to be competitive after bottoming out is simply not a recipe for success and the teams that have bottomed out are usually attempting to be competitive and having bad seasons.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

When I look at the last 5 cup winners, I don't see teams that "rebuilded".

Tampa attempted to be competitive throughout the window where they acquired Stamkos and Herman.

Colorado attempted to be competitive when they acquired MacKinnon and Makar.

Vegas has no top 5 picks.

Florida had 4 drafted players on their cup winning team and you can say that Huberdeau for Tkachuk was part of that, but I think the point still stands.

Successful cup winners haven't been made by "rebuilding" since arguably the LA Kings and Hawks.

The 15-16 and 16-17 Penguins were largely winners because of their creative management and trading to acquire players like Bonino, Kessel, etc.

The teams that have "rebuilded" in the last 10 years are Buffalo, New Jersey, New York, Montreal, Columbus, Arizona, and Edmonton. They've combined for one SCF that they lost and most of those teams are not making the playoffs.

It's a different league then what it was when Sid and Malkin were drafted. Expecting the team to be competitive after bottoming out is simply not a recipe for success and the teams that have bottomed out are usually attempting to be competitive and having bad seasons.

Nice post and agree with most of it.

Detroit is a great example. How many more years are they going to "make that jump" to make the playoffs? They have some fine young players, but are any of them difference makers to really be competitive?

I don't see anyone on the roster or in their pipeline that will propel them. They've been rebuilding for like 7 years now? And that is with allegedly the best GM in the league...

 

[Coastal Kev]

You want an echo chamber? Why? Is that productive?

As for the rest it's so unbelievably cynical and divorced of the emotion, humanity and zest that makes being a fan of anything worthwhile that I don't know where to begin, honestly. This assumption that you just "build a new core" by snapping your fingers is a fallacy... this could be a Buffalo situation way easier than it could be a Penguins mark 2.0 situation. Also trying to lecture a message board about the "reality of the situation" when everyone is already very aware comes off pretty arrogant.

"The vote" indicates only that people... fans... prefer that the core retire in Pittsburgh because despite you pounding your chest about at every opportunity it IS important and legacy DOES matter. I get that you don't care. We all get you don't care. But that doesn't make it silly or irrelevant. Perhaps it just makes you wrong.

Or there should be a second part added to the people wanting to keep the core (Keeping the core means extending meaningless hockey for 5+ years)

But none of it really matters with Sully remaining as coach, they might as well keep the core for another decade plus.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

55 core-3 fans
27 Penguins fans

It's kind of weird being on a so-called Pens forum, yet have the majority not care about the results of the team.
Huge turn-off for discussion.

This time can be used productively, instead of prioritizing selfish feelings over the good of the team.

Believe it or not sports are entertainment and for fun and a distraction from real life. not some weird computer simulation where fan satisfaction is solely determined by results.

It’s more fun when the team is good sure, but many of us want to see the best 2 players of this era (IMO) never don another jersey and don’t really care about the consequences (real or perceived). To ignore there’s a human element is misguided, in my opinion.

Also- to act like there’s a guarantee that moving the core will result in a good things and that holding on to them won’t is disingenuous.

New England Patriots were the king of making cold, calculating decisions and moved on from the NFL Sidney Crosby in Brady- did that work out?

 

[Ugene Magic]

That's why you ask for picks in years that will align with the team's trajectory.
2025 is an exception, because it's a very strong draft class. So even if a player works out for you from 2025, you simply trade them during the 2nd or 3rd year of their ELC, and get something notable back that will help you when you are ready.
Besides, making the team at 18 as a regular, even for 1sts, is uncommon. Four 2023 1sts played 40+ games last year. 27 of them played 0 games.

I'm not worried about the psyche of players who won't be here when the team is ready to contend again. The majority of them would be here a very brief time.
Ideally your whole roster is comprised of players with bad contracts and little value anyway, during that time. They are a means to an end, because you should take on bad contracts for futures.
This is just a transient phase, one that all serious teams need to go through at some point. That's the system the NHL forces upon you.

A few very high picks might come, but they'll be coming later than is necessary. Also the team should not reduce the amount of 1sts, 2nds and 3rds they can potentially receive, for the sake of improving the chances of a successful transition. That would be foolish, and pointless. They should take everything they can get.
I mean, Yager is likely our best prospect right now. Maybe Blomqvist.
Obviously the situation is dire, and they can't afford to hold back on replenishing this farm.

How do you know other than the next 1 or 2 drafts, how are you to know how good a particular draft class will be past the top pick(s)?

You seem to believe the Pens can just draft there way out of this, when in reality they are drafting fillers where they'll be selecting and not the next core. They could be a decade or more before the "Next Core" is doing anything tangible.

Are you ready for that?
I don't think you are pushing the narrative you are.

The only way this team makes a serious attempt at this rebuild quicker is if they buy their next core. Which was on their mind when FSG bought the Pens.

 

[BusinessGoose]

No, you're right, we are going to be bad for YEARS.

Thing is, i don't really care. There will be some bursts of fun along the way. And a lot of embarrassment.

f***ing oh well. Luckily I don't tie my personal worth to how good, or bad, my favorite teams are.... Which were mostly picked cause i liked the colors. Just so happened got to experience a ton of success with that.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nice post and agree with most of it.

Detroit is a great example. How many more years are they going to "make that jump" to make the playoffs? They have some fine young players, but are any of them difference makers to really be competitive?

I don't see anyone on the roster or in their pipeline that will propel them. They've been rebuilding for like 7 years now? And that is with allegedly the best GM in the league...

Well, I think that is largely @AuroraBorealis' point. If you don't bottom out like Detroit didn't or you get screwed by the lottery like Detroit did you are damned to exist in the middle.

But, I think that is also a cautionary tale to assuming you can draft your way to success too.

As I said, most teams that have "rebuilt" in the last ten or so years were trying to be competitive and lucked their way into franchise players. The NHL Draft isn't what it was 15-20 years ago when we established our core.

You need to be a creative GM who can win trades, be smart with his assets, and draft well.

This is why I've been so bitchy about Dubas, because he simply does not do those things.

He signed Tavares and got screwed in contract agreements.

His drafting in Toronto was subpar at best.

He lost Seth Jarvis in a trade to move on from Marleau.

Dubas' career is a perfect example of how you stall out a franchise because you aren't creative, you are not intelligent, and you don't have the cojones to make the big risky moves.

He doesn't have foresight. He's reactionary and makes boring moves.