Would Walter Gretzky, as a member the working class, will be able to afford hockey today?

[3074326]

Yes.
I know plenty of "Working class" people who's kids play hockey.

Like, WTF??

I stopped playing when my parents decided the financial aspect wasn't doable.

There's quite a range of wages in the "working class," if you weren't aware.......

 

[Atas2000]

None of what's stated in that link is wrong. Why are you defending Stalin good sir?

1.Most of it under the link is wrong. Just as in all the Wiki articles about the Soviet Union or Russia for that matter. It's part of the propaganda. It is a picture of Russia and Soviet Union that was carefully created and bulit up for centuries. I do trust people who put it in those articles in fact themselves believe the lies, miscoceptions and propaganda-infested views they publish, as does most of the western public nowadays. Facts tell a different story. But who cares?

2.Why are you right away get into the defending territory? I am not defending or not defending anything but the truth perhaps. There are not two sides, no rivalries. There is history as it was and history as it is beign tried to alter by propaganda. There are no persons in history who need prodection. Again, only the truth needs out all protection.

3.I gather your perception of Stalin is probably just another western cliche which could not be further from the truth.

 

[93LEAFS]

Just to put this in perspective,

Playing rep hockey costs almost as much per year as attending University of Toronto's (our best University) most expensive undergrads.

Finance, accounting, computer science, engineering etc.

The costs of playing Rep hockey in Canada is crazy and is why we likely see basketball becoming more and more popular.

Isn't U of T tuition like 7k a year (ignoring textbooks), unless you are entering specialized programs (Rotman School of Management for example), graduate degrees, or professional degrees. Top AAA programs can cost double that. Now, U of T's costs significantly ramp up if you factor in housing, especially off-campus if you aren't living at home. I'll say this, Canada's university system is very affordable for the programs they offer when compared to many elite American universities. I went to UWO and prior to that went to Toronto based private-schools, and even after living expenses, textbooks, and tuition, it cost about the same or less (and for my friends who boarded at Toronto private schools it was significantly cheaper).

 

[93LEAFS]

What do you mean appears? and becoming?

It's always been too expensive.

Growing up in NYC ice was no where to be found

pads? Goalies old abandoned couch cushions (no cup) / no blocker / a 1st basemans mitt for a catching glove

skaters? Sunday newspaper taped to your shins (no cup)

a puck? A sanded down roll of Scotch 88 Electrical tape.

hardly anyone wore aa helmet.

Hockey has ALWASY been an expensive sport

Thank goodness for spots like Play it Again so that folks could get cheaper equipmeent.

In Canada, it was much more affordable in the 50's and 60's for a variety of reasons, especially for top talent. One, if you were a top kid at a young age, one of the O6 would put you in their developmental system. Secondly, equipment was way cheaper, and not as specialized. Finally, playing outdoors was embraced and people from their were noticed and developed. That is no longer the path here. It's playing GTHL from 7 or 8 until your 15, and hoping to get drafted to the OHL or get a D1 offer.

 

[Albatros]

You forget the lag in all big systems. Just like Russia now is reaping the "benefits" of the 90s in hockey. And will continue grinding through that mess with the 90s parents bringing up their kids the wrong way. The 90 are long over, but the kids born in the 90s are the now generation of russian hockey. Malkin's generation still benefited from the intact soviet system while the Soviet Union was no more. The Kuznetsov generation could not.

People like Malkin's dad never techninically owned shares. And technically nothing was stolen from them. That is not how a transfer from state property to private property works. You make a very typical mistake. You can't sit on two chairs. It's either socialism or capitalism. You can't have both. You might dislike one or the other, but you can't apply the rules of one to the other. In the socialist system Malkin's parents could not own any shares of the factory, but you are clinging to it as property that was stolen from them. In the capitalist system the privatizaion that occured also occured on systemic premises of the capitalism, whether it's proponents like it or not or try to not hear and see the facts about the real nature of things in all systems or not. Rashnikov is seriously not the worst kind of those privatization beneficiaries. You might dislike the way they came to their property, but then you have to sit on that chair and dislike capitalism altotgether inevitably. All they did was playing by the rules of a capitalist society. Grab what you can for yourself. If you can bend the rules and circumvent the law and not get caught for the sake of profit - do it. That said Rashnikov did not steal a thing from Malkin's parents. You might argue he stole from the state. In last consequence the deteriorating of hockey development that was financed by that same state is connected to those people stealing from the state - yes.

While Ovechkin's parents were working for the club that did not benefit him much. Back in that day any kid could have made it through the Dynamo school, especially a talented one. Many did btw. Without having connections or money. The falling apart of that system resulted in many coaches emigrating and those who stayed started the whole infamous practices of corruption, bribes and so on, whch were inevitably destroying hockey development from the base on.

The workers were given their share in privatization, but were conned of it by the management (Rashnikov) whose own share was supposed to be only a few percent. Yet because of this fraud and political connections Rashnikov could take over the entire factory and thus also its hockey team which he kept financing. Malkin could have his career because of this circumstance, kids in many other steel towns weren't as fortunate. Countryside and small town kids didn't have the possibility to play even during the Soviet days while rural Saskatchewan has produced some of the finest players in the NHL.

 

[Captain97]

Isn't U of T tuition like 7k a year (ignoring textbooks), unless you are entering specialized programs (Rotman School of Management for example), graduate degrees, or professional degrees. Top AAA programs can cost double that. Now, U of T's costs significantly ramp up if you factor in housing, especially off-campus if you aren't living at home. I'll say this, Canada's university system is very affordable for the programs they offer when compared to many elite American universities. I went to UWO and prior to that went to Toronto based private-schools, and even after living expenses, textbooks, and tuition, it cost about the same or less (and for my friends who boarded at Toronto private schools it was significantly cheaper).

You are correct most UofT undergrads are 7-8k, but the ones I listed are all ~12+.

My undergrad commerce tuition averaged about 15.5k per year (cheapest year was 8, most expensive ~20k).

Uoft has deregulated undergrads(the ones I listed) that cost between 12 and 20k per year.

The point I was making though is that rep hockey often costs 10-12k per year which is only about 2k less than tuition to one of the top comp Sci programs in the country.

Which is an insane thought in my mind.

 

[Atas2000]

The workers were given their share in privatization, but were conned of it by the management (Rashnikov) whose own share was supposed to be only a few percent. Yet because of this fraud and political connections Rashnikov could take over the entire factory and thus also its hockey team which he kept financing. Malkin could have his career because of this circumstance, kids in many other steel towns weren't as fortunate. Countryside and small town kids didn't have the possibility to play even during the Soviet days while rural Saskatchewan has produced some of the finest players in the NHL.

They were not given shares. They were given rights to acquire shares. People like Rashnikov legally bought those rights on shares from them. And it is the capitalistic autonomy of a person. This does not look right, but legally it is okay if those people sold their rights cheap. The whole fraud is the alliance of now celebrated by the collective West crooks that used that system to buy state property for peanuts. Rashnikov is somewhere close to the low end of that group. Not really a member of the crew. Just a guy who used the circumstances. Doesn't make it all right. But then again, let's go back to the non-capitalistic values then.

The bolded is just not true. The soviet system was giving kids all over the country opportunities. Naturally some schools are better than others. Some schools have better experience with development. Some regions were known to produce hockey players, some cross-country skiers/ So yes, if you were born in a region that is known for developing weight lifters, but were by birth a future hockey star, you would have to be lucky to move to a good hockey school. But that's not on the system. It would have been impossible to have all regions produce for all kids of sports or even just hockey. That's absurd. Canada is a mono-culture mostly in sports. That's not comparable. the Soviet Union produced atheletes in all kinds of sports. But there was a scouting system in place back in the day. Talented kids from all regions would get noticed and invited to join better sports schools. As mentioned that would also include moving to a different location. Not all parents would do that. And even nowadays players Russia produces actually often come from hockey wise remote areas. And back in the soviet days since the 60s or so as a Moscow kid you were less likely to become a pro athlete compared to a rural born kid. Moscow kids were all pushed into "more prestigious" paths. What was more prestigious in the SU that is.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

1.Most of it under the link is wrong. Just as in all the Wiki articles about the Soviet Union or Russia for that matter. It's part of the propaganda. It is a picture of Russia and Soviet Union that was carefully created and bulit up for centuries. I do trust people who put it in those articles in fact themselves believe the lies, miscoceptions and propaganda-infested views they publish, as does most of the western public nowadays. Facts tell a different story. But who cares?

2.Why are you right away get into the defending territory? I am not defending or not defending anything but the truth perhaps. There are not two sides, no rivalries. There is history as it was and history as it is beign tried to alter by propaganda. There are no persons in history who need prodection. Again, only the truth needs out all protection.

3.I gather your perception of Stalin is probably just another western cliche which could not be further from the truth.

You sound insane and i am glad you aren't in any positions of power. The world should rejoice.

 

[Number8]

Lots of jokes in this thread and few red herrings in this thread. All good fun.

But the OP makes an excellent point (not news to everyone, I know). Many many years ago now, but there are one or two kids in my hometown who “might” have had a chance to go big in different sports. Will never know because costs were crazy and insurmountable then. Cost of elite, travel, or whatever you want to call it now is lunacy.

 

[pld459666]

In Canada, it was much more affordable in the 50's and 60's for a variety of reasons, especially for top talent. One, if you were a top kid at a young age, one of the O6 would put you in their developmental system. Secondly, equipment was way cheaper, and not as specialized. Finally, playing outdoors was embraced and people from their were noticed and developed. That is no longer the path here. It's playing GTHL from 7 or 8 until your 15, and hoping to get drafted to the OHL or get a D1 offer.

Fair points, but I'm talking 70's and early 80's

Shit, we played roller hockey with those metal clamp on roller skates with leather straps.

 

[Albatros]

They were not given shares. They were given rights to acquire shares. People like Rashnikov legally bought those rights on shares from them. And it is the capitalistic autonomy of a person. This does not look right, but legally it is okay if those people sold their rights cheap. The whole fraud is the alliance of now celebrated by the collective West crooks that used that system to buy state property for peanuts. Rashnikov is somewhere close to the low end of that group. Not really a member of the crew. Just a guy who used the circumstances. Doesn't make it all right. But then again, let's go back to the non-capitalistic values then.

The bolded is just not true. The soviet system was giving kids all over the country opportunities. Naturally some schools are better than others. Some schools have better experience with development. Some regions were known to produce hockey players, some cross-country skiers/ So yes, if you were born in a region that is known for developing weight lifters, but were by birth a future hockey star, you would have to be lucky to move to a good hockey school. But that's not on the system. It would have been impossible to have all regions produce for all kids of sports or even just hockey. That's absurd. Canada is a mono-culture mostly in sports. That's not comparable. the Soviet Union produced atheletes in all kinds of sports. But there was a scouting system in place back in the day. Talented kids from all regions would get noticed and invited to join better sports schools. As mentioned that would also include moving to a different location. Not all parents would do that. And even nowadays players Russia produces actually often come from hockey wise remote areas. And back in the soviet days since the 60s or so as a Moscow kid you were less likely to become a pro athlete compared to a rural born kid. Moscow kids were all pushed into "more prestigious" paths. What was more prestigious in the SU that is.

Off topic, but it's far from legal to establish a management company for the shares of the workers only to transfer those into your own pocket using forged documents. Anyway I agree that Rashnikov is just one out of many, just he happens to operate a successful hockey club. The crooks that took over in most other places didn't bother.

You can say that for the talented it was possible to move to a better school in a different city during the Soviet times, but what were the possibilities of starting with the sport at all if your hometown had no coverage? You were stuck with whatever few sports happened to be available. When that was also the case in many large cities with populations in hundreds of thousands and good natural conditions then the system does have to take much of the blame.

 

[Atas2000]

You sound insane and i am glad you aren't in any positions of power. The world should rejoice.

See, that's what propaganda does. It creates people like you. Fully detached from the real world. In fact fearing contact with it.

 

[leafsfan5]

If you can handle budgeting, you can afford a lot more things than you think.

100%

I stopped getting avocado toast and starbucks twice a week. Because of that I can afford a house in the GTA now! Who needs wages to increase proportionally with the cost of living when you can simply budget?

 

[Atas2000]

Off topic, but it's far from legal to establish a management company for the shares of the workers only to transfer those into your own pocket using forged documents. Anyway I agree that Rashnikov is just one out of many, just he happens to operate a successful hockey club. The crooks that took over in most other places didn't bother.

You can say that for the talented it was possible to move to a better school in a different city during the Soviet times, but what were the possibilities of starting with the sport at all if your hometown had no coverage? You were stuck with whatever few sports happened to be available. When that was also the case in many large cities with populations in hundreds of thousands and good natural conditions then the system does have to take much of the blame.

Why would you need forged documents as those could be acquired legally? The problem was people did not understand the true value of those and sold them off in bunches for a quick buck as times were hard. A big part of it was too that people were given those for free. What does not come at a price seems to be easier to let go.

As for some other crooks. Some are dead, some are convicted. Only the ones who fled to their protectors in the West live a quite life earning crumbs for delivering slurs against Russia. The ones who stayed in Russia are all to some extent been forced to contribute to the society. It is just a small part of what they appropriated, but it is better than letting them reign.

The possibility to start with the sport was everywhere. There were outdoor rinks everywhere. That's where the kids started. I had a rink right at the doorstep. That is where those scouting coaches got their kids for the actual hockey schools. And it was not limited to cities. Kids tournaments were held in every rural area. Those tournaments produced the exposure for the talened kids. All that was needed to get noticed and offered a place at a sports school.

And again, the "few" sports that were available were dozens, unlike in... Canada. What are the choices for kids in Canada? I mean choices that could lead into a pro career ultimately.

 

[North Cole]

Umm, if your solution to societal problems is just "everyone live under the same roof", umm alright then. I guess no one is allowed to go to college or pursue a job anywhere outside the immediate area of their parents' house.

I see it as if the average Canadian family has trouble putting their kids in hockey, that should be a problem for Hockey Canada.

They arent allowed to do those things? News to me. I would think given we live in a free country, they are well within their right to make those choices. Depends on the situations, if you live in rural Sask and need to go far for a university thats one thing and born of necessity. If you live in a big city and choose to go to a different big city for school because a program is "better", like taking commerce at Queens instead of SFU. Thats not a scarcity or privilege issue, thats a choice to upgrade and pay for it, so don't lament about high your loans are when youre done. In both situations, scholarships are available.

Not sure what the job part has to do with anything. People aren't moving across the country to work in retail or at a restaurant. How does that relate to your earlier point about working class poeple? You know many working class folks that move across the country to make $30-$40k? I know a lot of poeple come out here to work in Oil, and make $40 an hour and you've already stated you have no sympathy for those people, so the job outside your local area seems an irrelevant point.

Lastly, you are now referencing the average Canadian family. The average household income in Canada is much higher than $40K, so this also moves away from your "working class" definition from earlier.

I agree, them not being able to send their kids to play hockey is a hockey Canada issue. How is it a societal issue? Sports are extracurricular and Elite sport even more so. It doesn't point to societal failings that people can't afford Gary Robert's hockey camps and crazy travel expenses. All of those things are discretionary costs.

I think it would vastly help, is your solution making the minimum wage $25 so everyone can afford hockey? As someone who was too poor to play hockey growing up and focused on curling, I dont see not being able to afford elite hockey as a societal issue. There are plenty of other sports kids can be enrolled in.

 

[North Cole]

Why would you need forged documents as those could be acquired legally? The problem was people did not understand the true value of those and sold them off in bunches for a quick buck as times were hard. A big part of it was too that people were given those for free. What does not come at a price seems to be easier to let go.

As for some other crooks. Some are dead, some are convicted. Only the ones who fled to their protectors in the West live a quite life earning crumbs for delivering slurs against Russia. The ones who stayed in Russia are all to some extent been forced to contribute to the society. It is just a small part of what they appropriated, but it is better than letting them reign.

The possibility to start with the sport was everywhere. There were outdoor rinks everywhere. That's where the kids started. I had a rink right at the doorstep. That is where those scouting coaches got their kids for the actual hockey schools. And it was not limited to cities. Kids tournaments were held in every rural area. Those tournaments produced the exposure for the talened kids. All that was needed to get noticed and offered a place at a sports school.

And again, the "few" sports that were available were dozens, unlike in... Canada. What are the choices for kids in Canada? I mean choices that could lead into a pro career ultimately.

Same as the US, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, tennis, etc. Several Olympic sports, though some of those cost even more than hockey.

 

[bossram]

They arent allowed to do those things? News to me. I would think given we live in a free country, they are well within their right to make those choices. Depends on the situations, if you live in rural Sask and need to go far for a university thats one thing and born of necessity. If you live in a big city and choose to go to a different big city for school because a program is "better", like taking commerce at Queens instead of SFU. Thats not a scarcity or privilege issue, thats a choice to upgrade and pay for it, so don't lament about high your loans are when youre done. In both situations, scholarships are available.

Not sure what the job part has to do with anything. People aren't moving across the country to work in retail or at a restaurant. How does that relate to your earlier point about working class poeple? You know many working class folks that move across the country to make $30-$40k? I know a lot of poeple come out here to work in Oil, and make $40 an hour and you've already stated you have no sympathy for those people, so the job outside your local area seems an irrelevant point.

Lastly, you are now referencing the average Canadian family. The average household income in Canada is much higher than $40K, so this also moves away from your "working class" definition from earlier.

I agree, them not being able to send their kids to play hockey is a hockey Canada issue. How is it a societal issue? Sports are extracurricular and Elite sport even more so. It doesn't point to societal failings that people can't afford Gary Robert's hockey camps and crazy travel expenses. All of those things are discretionary costs.

I think it would vastly help, is your solution making the minimum wage $25 so everyone can afford hockey? As someone who was too poor to play hockey growing up and focused on curling, I dont see not being able to afford elite hockey as a societal issue. There are plenty of other sports kids can be enrolled in.

I'm not making it a societal issue. You are. In a thread about how hockey is expensive, you've come in with a rant about how living in one household would solve all affordability issues.

 

[Durnberg]

I am a fibre installer/ phone repair man, I make 32 an hour Canadian

 

[Albatros]

Why would you need forged documents as those could be acquired legally? The problem was people did not understand the true value of those and sold them off in bunches for a quick buck as times were hard. A big part of it was too that people were given those for free. What does not come at a price seems to be easier to let go.

As for some other crooks. Some are dead, some are convicted. Only the ones who fled to their protectors in the West live a quite life earning crumbs for delivering slurs against Russia. The ones who stayed in Russia are all to some extent been forced to contribute to the society. It is just a small part of what they appropriated, but it is better than letting them reign.

The possibility to start with the sport was everywhere. There were outdoor rinks everywhere. That's where the kids started. I had a rink right at the doorstep. That is where those scouting coaches got their kids for the actual hockey schools. And it was not limited to cities. Kids tournaments were held in every rural area. Those tournaments produced the exposure for the talened kids. All that was needed to get noticed and offered a place at a sports school.

And again, the "few" sports that were available were dozens, unlike in... Canada. What are the choices for kids in Canada? I mean choices that could lead into a pro career ultimately.

Take Kemerovo, a frosty city of half a million, almost the size of Winnipeg. Definitely good conditions for hockey theoretically. But everyone was made to play bandy instead. Of course you could try to make your own equipment and go play ice hockey outside on your own if you so wished, but no scout was going to discover you there nor did they even attempt to because the city was expected to produce players for another sport. System. If you're from Winnipeg and want to play basketball, lacrosse, football, curling, even bandy it's all possible and a matter of choice. Sure some options may be prohibitively expensive but at least they exist.

 

[tny760]

I am a fibre installer/ phone repair man, I make 32 an hour Canadian

amusing how passively derogatory people in this thread are being to the trades, most of which (as you're saying) can earn an honest living, especially with the industries you have in canada. good on you.

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

Unrelated but I had to not let my daughter play baseball for team Canada because it was around 10 thousand dollars for expenses

Wow that's crazy. What the f*** costs that much, traveling?

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

They need to figure this out. Imagine how many future stars we miss out on because of how expensive everything is, it's ludicrous.

Help the sport grow...

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

Michael Ferland's story....wasn't he just skating on the public rinks and parents got togther to help pay his fees?

Chris & Anthony Stewart's stories are crazier, look it up.

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

This is exaggerated, you can easily support 1-2 kids in hockey, The MAJORITY of the CHL is composed of kids from the middle class.

Case in point.

You gotta be at least middle class to be able to let your kid(s) play his favorite sport and maybe one day make it big.

 

[SomeDude]

100%

I stopped getting avocado toast and starbucks twice a week. Because of that I can afford a house in the GTA now! Who needs wages to increase proportionally with the cost of living when you can simply budget?

I don't intend for this to come off as douchey as it may sound, but why do you stay in an area where the cost of living/housing is not proportional to the income that you can earn?

Wages need to increase, but nobody is chained to a geographical area unless you have a very specialized career (which you'd likely be fairly compensated for) or need, which very few do. I'd still be living paycheck to paycheck if I tried to live where I used to....so I moved, and not that far away.