Would Walter Gretzky, as a member the working class, will be able to afford hockey today?

[These Are The Days]

Nah, blue collar wages have been stagnant and inequality has grown since the late 80's. You have to spend crazy money just for pre-school these days never mind hockey. There is a reason why millennials such as myself don't plan on having kids and I work in finance.

Don't worry fella.... in about 25 years people will realize just how right you are

Signed, 1988

 

[danisonfire]

I have a good paying job. My father recently showed me his budget from when I was playing GTHL AAA hockey, years ago.

Total for the season he showed me with travel and everything included was $23,500. This was 15+ years ago.....Not a chance in hell my fiance and I will be able to spend anything remotely close to that. I realize that total is probably on the higher end of things (and can be team dependent) but it was still insane to look at years later. I straight up joked with him that my kids will be playing soccer/baseball/basketball and asked him how TF he paid that every single year without losing his mind.

 

[These Are The Days]

Are Millennials Killing the Hockey Industry?

In the next 10-18 years, all the players will be sons of Millennials or the beginning of the Zoomers. You ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[Ray Mercer]

Have you seen the rate of Sask players in the NHL declining? Last year's draft was good for them, but they aren't producing stars anymore.

Which is too bad because Saskatchewan used to produce some of the toughest guys around. That old school tough farm boy defender seems to be lost from the game.

 

[93LEAFS]

Which is too bad because Saskatchewan used to produce some of the toughest guys around. That old school tough farm boy defender seems to be lost from the game.

Yeah, Western Canada kids are being funneled into those very expensive school travel teams in recent years. But, yeah, guys like Schenn or Jared Cowen weren't built for how the NHL is going. The big thing is, a team from Sask is going to have a ton of travel at high-levels, which will make it expensive.

 

[Oddbob]

It appears that the sport of hockey is becoming too expensive for working class families..

I noticed that Walter Gretzky's job was working as a telephone repairman , a working class job...

If Walter was a father today, will he be able to afford ice hockey for his son Wayne in this era?

Hockey has always been too expensive to play. I live in Canada and my parents couldn't afford to get me skates until I was 12 or so, nevermind getting to have all the equipment and playing in a league. Nothing but the number of dollars to play has changed, those who are wealthy can play and those are aren't can't, same as back then.

 

[JMUcapsfan07]

I didn't say that you can afford anything in the world. I'm drawing from my personal experience. Before I met my wife I was pretty terrible with money and felt like I could barely keep my head above water. Since then, I've taken a pay cut to get a better work/life balance and am living very comfortably.

Not everyone can afford hundreds of dollars a month to send their kid to some washed up pro's weekend camp so they can get exposure, but (at least in my area) most of the elite teams offer "scholarships" to players if they're good enough to help their program and the only thing keeping them from playing is the financial burden. Even at my small rural high school where our hockey team barely had enough kids to fill a roster, the best players would get free ride offers from a local prep school if we were good enough. If another Wayne Gretzky ever comes around, he'll get noticed regardless of economic status.

There are also a lot of great programs to get free equipment...again, at least in my area. You have to do your homework, but there are other options than getting a 2nd mortgage or being wealthy.

The price of hockey is absolutely insane, though, and the main reason that it will never be as popular as basketball and football where most kids grow up playing for very cheap/free.

Just wanted to pop in and say I appreciate a detailed and thought-provoking response to my post. I enjoyed the read and it was a breath of fresh air compared to what I expected.

 

[b in vancouver]

I was a pretty natural athlete myself growing up, but my parents struggled financially and I missed an opportunity at a young age to make the top team because nobody told my parents about the tryouts. The coach for the team said I'd have made it pretty easily when he had asked my parents why I never tried out. I worked my way up over the years, but was sick two years running for AAA tryouts (bronchitis.. yay!) which began right at the end of August only to get sent back down to AA and feel like other kids were skating in mud. I can't say if I had had the same opportunities as another I grew up with who made the NHL that I definitely would have too, but I definitely think there's a snowball effect from losing out on those opportunities at a young age for better training and development/coaching that money and connections provides. On the flipside, a kid who had incredible offensive talent and poise with the puck that I met briefly at a camp but always heard about had told me he wasn't going to play AAA that year because he had to pay for his own hockey (at age 15). He still ended up playing in some junior leagues later on, but I have to wonder if that was true or if it played a role in his hockey career.

When I say we had financial issues. My parents almost lost our house when my dad had cancer, twice, and then again later on because our house had mold. I had one, maybe two pairs of jeans all year. Wore the same clothes all the time. I always had second hand equipment, and used to play with those aluminum sticks that you could fit a blade into because replacing a $15 blade was cheaper than an entire wooden stick. My equipment in my first year was all donated by the community club. I didn't care, I loved hockey. My parents got up as early as 3 am to deliver newspapers before work. My father would work 12 hr overtime shifts on his feet for weeks at a time if they'd let him. I'm grateful for all my parents went through to give me and my brother a happy childhood, but I wouldn't wish this on anyone. This was 25 years ago, do they even sell aluminum sticks anymore? When my parents bought their house in 1991 it was only around $89,000. It's worth over $300,000 now, but wages haven't increased to match the inflation and costs of living. I completely agree with you, it's only becoming more difficult to put your kids into hockey each year as our dollar gets stretched further and further. I just don't know if there's any way to remove the systemic barriers to hockey without a massive overhaul to our economy. Community programs certainly help, but they're essentially a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

I'm a decade older than you but that's really close to what I grew up with. It's tough. Really appreciated reading that.

 

[MadLuke]

I think one way to possibly look at the percentage of the potential talent pool that goes to have a shot at the nhl in a country like Canada is to look at :
Örnsköldsvik

A city of 32K in Sweden in which hockey is super popular (Modo play there) and elite sports is somewhat free and open to everyone.

Forsberg, Naslund, Sundstrom, Hedman, the Sedins, Enstrom, etc... that single small city best could beat some nation.

Maybe they are genetically special or lucky, or maybe that every small city in Canada would have 3-4-5-6 players that were of that talent since 1995 has well, if Hockey was has popular and easy of access.

The fact that a under 35K town in Sweden can put 5 players that were arguably the best at their position some season in the 2000s, do show that the notion that talent level is now much higher than before is far from certain.

 

[Atas2000]

Malkin benefited of oligarch Rashnikov financing the local hockey program, Ovechkin came from a privileged family.

Malkin did not benefit from it. It was after his time. In the time when he grew up it was a quickly deteriorating soviet system, but it was just by a hair intact when he left. The intervention of big money in sports began right after that. In an ugly way at first. Malkin just got the very first glimpses of it, but then he was already off to NA. Ovechkin's family is not privileged. In what way? The only "privilege" is that his family has some connections in the sports world, but it would not matter much at the time. A lot of other kids whose mothers were not Olympics athletes would have the same chances as Ovechkin back then.

 

[Albatros]

Malkin did not benefit from it. It was after his time. In the time when he grew up it was a quickly deteriorating soviet system, but it was just by a hair intact when he left. The intervention of big money in sports began right after that. In an ugly way at first. Malkin just got the very first glimpses of it, but then he was already off to NA. Ovechkin's family is not privileged. In what way? The only "privilege" is that his family has some connections in the sports world, but it would not matter much at the time. A lot of other kids whose mothers were not Olympics athletes would have the same chances as Ovechkin back then.

Malkin was 5 years old when the Soviet Union collapsed. People like his dad soon lost their share in the profitable steel factory to Rashnikov. He in turn financed the Metallurg hockey program with money that he had essentially stolen from the parents of the players. Ovechkin meanwhile had both of his parents working for his club.

 

[smack66]

NFL star JJ Watt gave up hockey because of the cost. there's no saying a 6'5 freakish athlete wod have exceled but how many other young athletes gave up on hockey because of cost.

 

[bossram]

If you can handle budgeting, you can afford a lot more things than you think.

Yes, budgeting helps.

But high-level hockey can cost $10,000+ dollars a year. If you're an actual middle class family (median family income in Canada is $70,000), you simply can't afford that. Putting multiple kids in hockey? No chance.

This "be more responsible" rhetoric is so wrong and harmful. Most low-income families actually are pretty good at budgeting. That's how they have enough money to...live. If the question is hockey vs. rent and food well, there's no hockey. Yet we hear all the stories about upper-middle-income people crying about debt and being unable to keep up with Jones's.

 

[bossram]

people's perspective of reality is so warped, it reminds me of a friend.
He grew up in a family that was well off, he never paid for anything growing up, his parents paid for his post secondary, lived with them rent free for 4 years of school, then 5 years after while he was making 70k a year saving up to buy a house...he had the balls to ask me one day why I'm not able to save up for a house, he still couldn't comprehend it when I tried to explain to him that I've been paying my parents rent since I was 12 just so I would have a house over my head.

making $40 an hour is NOT the norm....for every job making $40 an hour, there are 20 min wage jobs. A $5000 tournament for some is so beyond out of reality when after taxes you are trying to make rent on 30k a year

People are deluded. $40/hour is not "working class". It's on the higher end of the income scale in Canada. That's $80,000 annually. That's more than the median household income in Canada. Try making half that, as a household, combined. That's what the working class looks like. Now tell them to spend $10,000+ on hockey.

People talking like "just be more responsible, save more" are coming from an incredible place of privilege.

 

[Your old Jofa helmet]

You missed the part where he was also the descendants of land owning aristocrats in the Russian Empire

And it's 25 more acres then anyone I know ever owned

You missed the part where you are sent to Siberia if you are a successful land owner

Dekulakization

Wayne's family were smart and lucky to emigrate

 

[pt_mck]

My experience in the US: If you’re at a high level by the right age, it doesn’t matter how much your parents make. You will have access to everything if you’re a good enough player.

Not to say that there’s not an advantage for those with deep pocketed families. If your kid has ok talent and can make decent club teams, for sure there are those who can essentially buy further development through non stop coaching, clinics, lessons, camps, etc that a middle class family couldn’t afford.

For instance, sending an solid but otherwise unspectacular talent to an expensive top HS to take advantage of a pipeline and connections to collegiate programs. That’s a way money can be a factor/advantage.

But I don’t think it plays into youth/HS sports nearly as much as people think in the U.S.

Canada I cannot speak on.



Those types of high schools hand out a ton of money too.

Ever see the documentary Hoop Dreams?

 

[Bernie Federko]

Yes, budgeting helps.

But high-level hockey can cost $10,000+ dollars a year. If you're an actual middle class family (median family income in Canada is $70,000), you simply can't afford that. Putting multiple kids in hockey? No chance.

This "be more responsible" rhetoric is so wrong and harmful. Most low-income families actually are pretty good at budgeting. That's how they have enough money to...live. If the question is hockey vs. rent and food well, there's no hockey. Yet we hear all the stories about upper-middle-income people crying about debt and being unable to keep up with Jones's.

Spot on, I know when I was struggling I could not afford to be casual about money.

 

[Atas2000]

Malkin was 5 years old when the Soviet Union collapsed. People like his dad soon lost their share in the profitable steel factory to Rashnikov. He in turn financed the Metallurg hockey program with money that he had essentially stolen from the parents of the players. Ovechkin meanwhile had both of his parents working for his club.

You forget the lag in all big systems. Just like Russia now is reaping the "benefits" of the 90s in hockey. And will continue grinding through that mess with the 90s parents bringing up their kids the wrong way. The 90 are long over, but the kids born in the 90s are the now generation of russian hockey. Malkin's generation still benefited from the intact soviet system while the Soviet Union was no more. The Kuznetsov generation could not.

People like Malkin's dad never techninically owned shares. And technically nothing was stolen from them. That is not how a transfer from state property to private property works. You make a very typical mistake. You can't sit on two chairs. It's either socialism or capitalism. You can't have both. You might dislike one or the other, but you can't apply the rules of one to the other. In the socialist system Malkin's parents could not own any shares of the factory, but you are clinging to it as property that was stolen from them. In the capitalist system the privatizaion that occured also occured on systemic premises of the capitalism, whether it's proponents like it or not or try to not hear and see the facts about the real nature of things in all systems or not. Rashnikov is seriously not the worst kind of those privatization beneficiaries. You might dislike the way they came to their property, but then you have to sit on that chair and dislike capitalism altotgether inevitably. All they did was playing by the rules of a capitalist society. Grab what you can for yourself. If you can bend the rules and circumvent the law and not get caught for the sake of profit - do it. That said Rashnikov did not steal a thing from Malkin's parents. You might argue he stole from the state. In last consequence the deteriorating of hockey development that was financed by that same state is connected to those people stealing from the state - yes.

While Ovechkin's parents were working for the club that did not benefit him much. Back in that day any kid could have made it through the Dynamo school, especially a talented one. Many did btw. Without having connections or money. The falling apart of that system resulted in many coaches emigrating and those who stayed started the whole infamous practices of corruption, bribes and so on, whch were inevitably destroying hockey development from the base on.

 

[Atas2000]

You missed the part where you are sent to Siberia if you are a successful land owner

Dekulakization

Wayne's family were smart and lucky to emigrate

You should not take Wikipedia though as a credible source on soviet history too.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

You should not take Wikipedia though as a credible source on soviet history too.

None of what's stated in that link is wrong. Why are you defending Stalin good sir?

 

[North Cole]

I feel like this line of thinking has been pushed down people's throats for years and I'm convinced it's dangerous and contributes to a lot of problems we are facing as a society and has the potential to get a lot worse.

I'm fortunate in that I have done okay so far in my career but the data doesn't lie - wages have stagnated for years and the wealth gap has continued to grow. The cost of living for pretty much anything has grown exponentially and children's sports has become big business compared to even when I grew up in the 90s. I don't doubt for a second that hockey, especially higher level hockey is out of reach for most families.

Budgeting should be pushed down peoples throats, because not enough people do it. The idea of budgeting itself is not inherently dangerous. The wealth gap is an entirely different conversation and not related to concerns over budgeting or taking on too much debt. I know people that get approved for a mortgage and immediately look for houses in the max range of their approval limit, with the intention to put 5% down.

There is an inherent spending issue in society and it's not related to the wealth gap. While the wealth gap is an issue, I'm not convinced ballooning wages fixes these issues, because people just spend to the new limit. Things don't go up forever, we can't buy houses for 30K on a 5K salary anymore and expect the house to be worth 500k when we retire. My grandparents are on me about buying a house because it was their retirement plan, but I'm sorry, I don't see a 500K house being worth 8x it's value when i go to retire.

 

[Three On Zero]

Hockey always has and always will be a niche sport for the upper middle class, this is why it will never compete with the “big 3” in North America.

 

[North Cole]

People are deluded. $40/hour is not "working class". It's on the higher end of the income scale in Canada. That's $80,000 annually. That's more than the median household income in Canada. Try making half that, as a household, combined. That's what the working class looks like. Now tell them to spend $10,000+ on hockey.

People talking like "just be more responsible, save more" are coming from an incredible place of privilege.

We just seem to be arguing the nuance between privileged enough to spend 1-2K on sports, versus privileged enough to spend 10-20K on sports. People making $40K a year likely aren't spending any money on any sports for their kids and no room to be doing so; but it seems very irresponsible to have children with that kind of wage anyways, no? I get that stuff happens, but families need more of an internal support system and I think part of it is cultural. If you live in Canada, you have incredible privilege, just because its less privilege than your neighbor doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I know a few first and second generation immigrant families that have no issues living in the same house for a long time. One of my Asian friends is living with his immediate family still, they probably have $250K income under their roof between him, his parents, his brother, and his sister, which allows everyone to pay less rent and save for houses of their own. Speaking a white person, we definitely seem to push our kids out the door a hell of a lot sooner than most other races.

Not everyone has rich parents obviously, that can pave the way through life for them. However, telling people to save more doesn't automatically mean there is "incredible privilege" at work, could be something as simple as not trying to get away from your house at 18 and doing it on your own from day 1. So many people incur huge student loans, not just because school is so expensive, but because they pile a bunch of living expenses in there.

Families can't create generational wealth anymore because everyone starts from ground zero when they move out, instead of working as a family unit to make a better life for everyone. $40K is pretty shit income by yourself, but it doesn't need to be household income if you have multiple people making $40K under the same roof.

The media perpetuates this BS too, how many things do we see in society that degrade people who still live at home when they're 30 or 40? It's like you're considered some piece of garbage if you aren't slugging out alone being "independent" at 20 years old. If you have no job at that age, then sure that's bad, but automatically living at home and paying rent to your family at 30 is a hell of a lot better than paying some other random persons mortgage and still struggling to put food on the table.

 

[Captain97]

Just to put this in perspective,

Playing rep hockey costs almost as much per year as attending University of Toronto's (our best University) most expensive undergrads.

Finance, accounting, computer science, engineering etc.

The costs of playing Rep hockey in Canada is crazy and is why we likely see basketball becoming more and more popular.

 

[bossram]

We just seem to be arguing the nuance between privileged enough to spend 1-2K on sports, versus privileged enough to spend 10-20K on sports. People making $40K a year likely aren't spending any money on any sports for their kids and no room to be doing so; but it seems very irresponsible to have children with that kind of wage anyways, no? I get that stuff happens, but families need more of an internal support system and I think part of it is cultural. If you live in Canada, you have incredible privilege, just because its less privilege than your neighbor doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I know a few first and second generation immigrant families that have no issues living in the same house for a long time. One of my Asian friends is living with his immediate family still, they probably have $250K income under their roof between him, his parents, his brother, and his sister, which allows everyone to pay less rent and save for houses of their own. Speaking a white person, we definitely seem to push our kids out the door a hell of a lot sooner than most other races.

Not everyone has rich parents obviously, that can pave the way through life for them. However, telling people to save more doesn't automatically mean there is "incredible privilege" at work, could be something as simple as not trying to get away from your house at 18 and doing it on your own from day 1. So many people incur huge student loans, not just because school is so expensive, but because they pile a bunch of living expenses in there.

Families can't create generational wealth anymore because everyone starts from ground zero when they move out, instead of working as a family unit to make a better life for everyone. $40K is pretty shit income by yourself, but it doesn't need to be household income if you have multiple people making $40K under the same roof.

The media perpetuates this BS too, how many things do we see in society that degrade people who still live at home when they're 30 or 40? It's like you're considered some piece of garbage if you aren't slugging out alone being "independent" at 20 years old. If you have no job at that age, then sure that's bad, but automatically living at home and paying rent to your family at 30 is a hell of a lot better than paying some other random persons mortgage and still struggling to put food on the table.

Umm, if your solution to societal problems is just "everyone live under the same roof", umm alright then. I guess no one is allowed to go to college or pursue a job anywhere outside the immediate area of their parents' house.

I see it as if the average Canadian family has trouble putting their kids in hockey, that should be a problem for Hockey Canada.