OT: World Cup 2022 (Human Rights Optional) - Let's Get Stoned!

[PDX Flyer]

Watching a lot of both, albeit on tape...

I think Eusabio from same era was better than Pele. Far more explosive and scored goals at a better rate at arguably a better level of football.

A lot of Brazilians would say Pele is only ~2nd-3rd best Brazilian ever, he gets more praise in Europe than South America. Garrincha is probably the #1 in Brazil, and Jairzinho in similar level to Pele from what I understand.

I think:

Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Eusabio, Garrincha, Beckenbaeur, Maradona, Cruyff, Puskas... are all guys that can make "an argument" for. Albeit some stronger than others.

George Best?

 

[Jack Straw]

George Best?

The coolest.

 

[Appleyard]

George Best?

His peak was immense.

But it was really only 5 years (1967-1972). And after age 26? He was "just" a "solid" Premier League/Top division player for 2 years... and then not even capable of being a Top division player after age 28.

I think the "romance" of him elevates him slightly above where logic says he should be all time. Top 20? Yeh? But ahead of say guys like Gerd Muller and Marco van Basten? Or some of the great all-time defenseman? I am not sure.

For me it is like saying Lindros is a top 10 NHLer all-time? Was his peak there or therabouts? Yes... but career? No.

 

[PDX Flyer]

So my $0.02 on the greatest ever question... for me it (in my uneducated opinion) it comes down to Pele and Messi. But I only saw Pele at the very end of his career when he was playing for the Cosmos in the old NASL (him and Beckenbauer). I wouldn't feel comfortable picking between the two but I'm comfortable saying that Messi is the best I've seen.

The argument some people make against Pele is that he never played in Europe and scored a bunch of goals for Santos in a weak league. Fine, but his international career stands with anyone I think. He was the best player on the strongest national team of the era. And the countries that produced the best players then are pretty much the same ones that produce the best players now. Brazil, Argentina, France, Italy, England, Germany, etc...

It's not like hockey where the US is orders of magnitude stronger now that we were in 1980. I'd say that top players in hockey now are coming from a wider variety of countries now compared to the '70s while in soccer that's much less true. So Pele, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, those guys from the '60s and '70s should still be in the conversation.

Was Pele ever the best player

His peak was immense.

But it was really only 5 years (1967-1972). And after age 26? He was "just" a "solid" Premier League/Top division player for 2 years... and then not even capable of being a Top division player after age 28.

I think the "romance" of him elevates him slightly above where logic says he should be all time. Top 20? Yeh? But ahead of say guys like Gerd Muller and Marco van Basten? Or some of the great all-time defenseman? I am not sure.

For me it is like saying Lindros is a top 10 NHLer all-time? Was his peak there or therabouts? Yes... but career? No.

After I posted I thought about that very argument. His peak was short lived but the impact of his play during that timeframe was legendary.

 

[Appleyard]

Was Pele ever the best player

After I posted I thought about that very argument. His peak was short lived but the impact of his play during that timeframe was legendary.

I dont know! Pele is in the frame but not clear-cut at all.

It was... but his peak, while incredible, when you remove the romance of it all... is not clear cut top 10 either. Albeit close.

For example... Müller was a direct contemporary and basically the same age:

Best: 1x Ballon d'Or, 1x 3rd place.
Müller: 1x Ballon d'Or, 1x 2nd place, 2x 3rd place.

And Müller played for 15 years at Goal per Game level!

Yet not sure there is an argument for Müller being better than maybe ~10th all-time or so.

 

[PDX Flyer]

I dont know! Pele is in the frame but not clear-cut at all.

It was... but his peak, while incredible, when you remove the romance of it all... is not clear cut top 10 either. Albeit close.

For example... Müller was a direct contemporary and basically the same age:

Best: 1x Ballon d'Or, 1x 3rd place.
Müller: 1x Ballon d'Or, 1x 2nd place, 2x 3rd place.

And Müller played for 15 years at Goal per Game level!

Yet not sure there is an argument for Müller being better than maybe ~10th all-time or so.

The Pele reference was a thought cut short that I didn’t finish and it auto merged aha. I was going to ask... was Pele ever the best player on any of the Brazil teams that won the Cups? Good argument can made for no.

 

[Curufinwe]

Watching a lot of both, albeit on tape...

I think Eusabio from same era was better than Pele. Far more explosive and scored goals at a better rate at arguably a better level of football.

He was freaking awesome in Pro Evolution soccer on the classic teams.

 

[Jack Straw]

Since we're on the general subject here is Cruyff's all-time starting XI, from his autobiography published after he died in 2016:

Johan Cruyff included Pep Guardiola when naming the greatest XI in football history

GK: Lev Yashin

RB: Carlos Alberto

CB: Franz Beckenbauer

CB: Pep Guardiola

LB: Ruud Krol

RM: Garrincha

CM: Bobby Charlton

CM: Alfredo Di Stefano

LM: Keizer

ST: Pele

ST: Diego Maradona

 

[Embiid]

Enjoyed yesterday's game...one of the GOAT if not the GOAT...

Sorry France....

Happy Messi got his cup...

 

[Appleyard]

Since we're on the general subject here is Cruyff's all-time starting XI, from his autobiography published after he died in 2016:

Johan Cruyff included Pep Guardiola when naming the greatest XI in football history

GK: Lev Yashin

RB: Carlos Alberto

CB: Franz Beckenbauer

CB: Pep Guardiola

LB: Ruud Krol

RM: Garrincha

CM: Bobby Charlton

CM: Alfredo Di Stefano

LM: Keizer

ST: Pele

ST: Diego Maradona

Funny how many guys are out of position aha. Or in ones rarely played/were secondary.

Guardiola: DM
Garrincha: RW (in 4-2-4 or 4-3-3)
Charlton: AM/LW/ST
Di Stefano: AM/CF

But guess Cruyff and Total Football mean positions dont really matter aha.

 

[Young Sandwich]

Funny how many guys are out of position aha. Or in ones rarely played/were secondary.

Guardiola: DM
Garrincha: RW (in 4-2-4 or 4-3-3)
Charlton: AM/LW/ST
Di Stefano: AM/CF

But guess Cruyff and Total Football mean positions dont really matter aha.

This is all I can think of anytime I hear the words "total football". The last 4 words of the song will ring true for many.

 

[Appleyard]

This is all I can think of anytime I hear the words "total football". The last 4 words of the song will ring true for many.

Aha, great song.

 

[PDX Flyer]

Funny how many guys are out of position aha. Or in ones rarely played/were secondary.

Guardiola: DM
Garrincha: RW (in 4-2-4 or 4-3-3)
Charlton: AM/LW/ST
Di Stefano: AM/CF

But guess Cruyff and Total Football mean positions dont really matter aha.

Glad you posted that because I always thought Pep was a midfielder!