World Cup 2016: Best On Best?

[hitmen19]

You are correct with one thing. It is only a problem if a league in NA has the best players in the world. It works with every other sport.


No.

Football teams have several interruptions to their season for national teams, qualification for WM/EM and even friendlies. Top teams also have to integrate Champions League (they love that bc big money) and the Euro League.

The problem with Qatar (outside of political things) is that to actually be able to play a tournament in the desert, they had to put a working concept on its head. The qualification has to change as well etc which brings a huge rescheduling just so the most corrupt sports organisation on this planet can have its will.

That's a bit different then it's in hockey, where basically everybody agreed to a schedule, except the biggest kid, fully aware it has the shyniest toys, which always has to make a fuss.

Comparing football and hockey is hard to do.
Football has many similar sized leagues playing on the same continent, logistically its so much easier for them to go play a champions league game and the players be back at home for a league game. Football is the one sport that is international that every country in the world plays. That being said, the world cup is always scheduled when the major leagues in Europe are done their seasons. They have never been in season. The tourneys that are in season are all based in Europe, tournaments where all the leagues have revenue sharing and get revenue from the proceeds.

The nhl is different because it is such a big dog in terms of its size and talent in comparision to the small European Swedish, khl leagues. You are asking the NHL to send its players in season, at its own considerable expense, to the Olympics, for something it gets nothing back from. Yes, the Swedish and khl allow them also, but guess what, there aren't that many players in those leagues that go to the Olympics, and its a lot easier insuring contracts in the 100k range then it is for 120 players that are earning contracts in the x0,000,000 ranges. Something it has done for 5 straight games, and yet, the NHL is such a big bully, egotistical, money hungry entity. lol

 

[Xokkeu]

Please provide examples of leagues that shut down there seasons? im sure you can find an Euro hand ball league or something that does, but go ahead, im listening.

In regards to the NHL being the only sport that stops its athletes from participating in the Olympics first of all is incorrect. The NHL did before the NBA, FIFA doesn't even allow them besides 3 I think, no baseball players from the major countries such as japan, usa go. Before 98, when it was supposed to be amateurs, NHL wasn't in a position to send its players. 98 and beyond when professionals have been allowed, it has sent them to 5 straight Olympics at its own expense and shutting down its businesses. So the one that you are having a problem will be the one going forward. It hasn't even said no, but to keep slamming the NHL is not based on any evidence.

The leagues shut down for the eurohockey tour because they get a financial interest to do so. They each get a percentage of revenues.

The Olympics started allowing professionals in 1987. It's just that the NHL didn't go until 1998. Peter Forsberg, gold medal winning scorer of 1994, played professionally in Sweden. Leading scorers Zigmund Palffy and Miroslav Satan were professionals in the Czech and Slovak leagues. Hakan Loob had played five seasons with the Flames. Sean Burke played for the 1992 Silver medalist Canadians after having four years NHL experience. Erkki Lehtonen played for Finland in the 1988 Olympics having 10 years of Finnish elite league experience.

 

[TLeafsFan]

I'm not the one pushing a pointless, subjective and semantical agenda so I have nothing further to say.

Enjoy the best ON best tournament.

 

[JackSlater]

I'm not the one pushing a pointless, subjective and semantical agenda so I have nothing further to say.

Enjoy the best ON best tournament.

I wouldn't answer the question either. It pretty much renders the discussion moot. Enjoy the tournament.

 

[TLeafsFan]

I wouldn't answer the question either. It pretty much renders the discussion moot. Enjoy the tournament.

No it doesn't. "Because it's always been like X..." Leaving no room for innovation has been proven wrong historically time and time again.

No this is not your traditional best on best tournament.

It is a new and innovative modern take on one.

You as well. Enjoy.

GO CANADA GO!!!

 

[OldGreatWestern]

Two simple questions -

1. Can USA select all of its best players?

2. Can Canada select all of its best players?

Since the answer to both questions is very clearly no, it can't be considered a best on best.

This thinking doesn't work. If you chose your best USA or Canada team then someone else would post the same thing saying that it isn't the best. 'Best' is subjective.

 

[86Habs]

This thinking doesn't work. If you chose your best USA or Canada team then someone else would post the same thing saying that it isn't the best. 'Best' is subjective.

"Best" should be (and for previous best-on-best tournaments always has been) determined at the discretion of the management teams formed by the respective national bodies to select their national teams - i.e. Armstrong and co., and Lombardi and co. For this particular tournament, Armstrong and Lombardi are prohibited from selecting players under the arbitrarily-chosen age of 24, therefore they are unable to select their "best" teams.

 

[Xokkeu]

This thinking doesn't work. If you chose your best USA or Canada team then someone else would post the same thing saying that it isn't the best. 'Best' is subjective.

If you have access to pick all the USA and Canada players, then you have the best players. Regardless of the subjectivity of who gets called, if they are available or not is a simple question.

 

[JackSlater]

No it doesn't. "Because it's always been like X..." Leaving no room for innovation has been proven wrong historically time and time again.

No this is not your traditional best on best tournament.

It is a new and innovative modern take on one.

You as well. Enjoy.

GO CANADA GO!!!

There is no innovation when we are dealing with terms, particularly a word like "best" which is not really interpretive. Anyway, you've nearly grasped that it isn't a best on best tournament. Mild progress.

This thinking doesn't work. If you chose your best USA or Canada team then someone else would post the same thing saying that it isn't the best. 'Best' is subjective.

It works perfectly fine. I agree that there is no way to determine what team would perform best, but I said that those teams do not have the ability to select their best. That is simply a fact. We already know that the Americans asked to be able to select at least one player under 24, while implying that they asked for more, and were denied, and even Babcock thinks that "some" players under 24 would make the Canadian team if eligible. Moving on from that, team North America and team Europe are clearly not at their best, especially North America since that teams existence implies that all of Canada, USA and North America cannot be at their best.

 

[Big Phil]

I am undecided but leaning to no, not 100%. More like 85%. So better than even the best World Championship (2005 maybe?) but worse than every Canada Cup and World Cup/Olympic before it. For one reason................the NHL and NHLPA sold out for it. Heck, while we're at it the puppets that are Sidney Crosby and Jonathan Toews among other didn't say a word. Not one. None. You would think the two biggest leaders in the NHL would say to themselves "Wait, this isn't right, what are you guys doing with these two other teams? If that happened in the 2010 Olympics we wouldn't have been there."

Nope, no one complained. Lord knows Donald Fehr didn't. Bettman didn't. The owners didn't. The players didn't. Well, I remember Mark Streit saying he didn't like it one bit and I don't blame him coming from Switzerland.

All it needed to take was one guy, Connor McDavid, to say he isn't playing because he doesn't agree with the format. He wouldn't want to play against his own country, which he might have to, let's find out. He's young, so maybe it wasn't his job to do it, but the likes of Toews and Crosby have been around and have some pull, they could have done something about it. At least Ovechkin made sure with his comments that the NHL went to Sochi in 2014.

Not to mention the media was sucking up to this tournament too. Trying to make us the fans think this gimmick was a splash! Hoping that everyone forgets the way the other tournaments ran. We didn't.

So that is what gets me mad, this should be an epic tournament but the NHL could very easily get egg on their face and in a way I hope they do.

 

[Xokkeu]

As far as I can tell the US has picked at least one U24 player for every tournament except the 2002 and 2006 Olympics.

1976 Alan Hangsleben Dan Bolduc, Dean Talafous, Cap Raeder, Gary Sargent, Pete Lopresti, Rick Chartraw, Lee Fogolin, Steve Jensen

1981 Neal Broten, Steve Christoff, Rob McClanahan

1984 mark fusco, chris chelios, Brian Mullen, Tom Hirsch, Bob Carpenter, Phil Housley, Tom Barrasso, Brian Lawton, David Jensen, Ed Olczyk

1987 Kevin Hatcher, Ed Olczyk, Tom Barrasso, Wayne Presley, Pat LaFontaine, Gary Suter, Dave Ellett, Corey Millen, Phil Housley

1991 Mike Modano, Jeremy Roenick, Brian Leetch

1996 Adam Deadmarsh, Jim Carey

1998 Bryan Berard, Adam Deadmarsh, Jamie Langenbrunner

2004 Paul Martin, Rick Dipietro

2010 Phil Kessel, E. Johnson, J. Johnson, Patrick Kane, Bobby Ryan

2014 Cam Fowler, Justin Faulk

 

[Big Phil]

As far as I can tell the US has picked at least one U24 player for every tournament except the 2002 and 2006 Olympics.

1976 Alan Hangsleben Dan Bolduc, Dean Talafous, Cap Raeder, Gary Sargent, Pete Lopresti, Rick Chartraw, Lee Fogolin, Steve Jensen

1981 Neal Broten, Steve Christoff, Rob McClanahan

1984 mark fusco, chris chelios, Brian Mullen, Tom Hirsch, Bob Carpenter, Phil Housley, Tom Barrasso, Brian Lawton, David Jensen, Ed Olczyk

1987 Kevin Hatcher, Ed Olczyk, Tom Barrasso, Wayne Presley, Pat LaFontaine, Gary Suter, Dave Ellett, Corey Millen, Phil Housley

1991 Mike Modano, Jeremy Roenick, Brian Leetch

1996 Adam Deadmarsh, Jim Carey

1998 Bryan Berard, Adam Deadmarsh, Jamie Langenbrunner

2004 Paul Martin, Rick Dipietro

2010 Phil Kessel, E. Johnson, J. Johnson, Patrick Kane, Bobby Ryan

2014 Cam Fowler, Justin Faulk

Yeah, pretty scary. It just goes to show you that a player under the age of 24 can still be a star or at least a contributor.

No it doesn't. "Because it's always been like X..." Leaving no room for innovation has been proven wrong historically time and time again.

No this is not your traditional best on best tournament.

It is a new and innovative modern take on one.

You as well. Enjoy.

GO CANADA GO!!!

I always love the words "innovative" and "modern" as if those can never be perceived as being bad things. Well, it can here. No one who has ever watched and enjoyed a World Cup/Olympic tournament can understand why this format makes sense other than a money standpoint.

 

[Hanji]

It's a nice pre-season exhibition with the best players, but not an international best on best like the Olympics or Canada Cup.

 

[JackSlater]

As far as I can tell the US has picked at least one U24 player for every tournament except the 2002 and 2006 Olympics.

1976 Alan Hangsleben Dan Bolduc, Dean Talafous, Cap Raeder, Gary Sargent, Pete Lopresti, Rick Chartraw, Lee Fogolin, Steve Jensen

1981 Neal Broten, Steve Christoff, Rob McClanahan

1984 mark fusco, chris chelios, Brian Mullen, Tom Hirsch, Bob Carpenter, Phil Housley, Tom Barrasso, Brian Lawton, David Jensen, Ed Olczyk

1987 Kevin Hatcher, Ed Olczyk, Tom Barrasso, Wayne Presley, Pat LaFontaine, Gary Suter, Dave Ellett, Corey Millen, Phil Housley

1991 Mike Modano, Jeremy Roenick, Brian Leetch

1996 Adam Deadmarsh, Jim Carey

1998 Bryan Berard, Adam Deadmarsh, Jamie Langenbrunner

2004 Paul Martin, Rick Dipietro

2010 Phil Kessel, E. Johnson, J. Johnson, Patrick Kane, Bobby Ryan

2014 Cam Fowler, Justin Faulk

Interesting list. I've done this for Canada, but never did it for USA. Kind of strange that 1984 had the most young players for both Canada and USA. The Young Gunz that year actually would probably have beem better than team Canada. Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman, Bourque, Coffee, Barrasso, Chelios, Hawerchuk, Savard, Housley etc.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Yeah, pretty scary. It just goes to show you that a player under the age of 24 can still be a star or at least a contributor.



I always love the words "innovative" and "modern" as if those can never be perceived as being bad things. Well, it can here. No one who has ever watched and enjoyed a World Cup/Olympic tournament can understand why this format makes sense other than a money standpoint.

Nice try. People are enjoying it just fine thanks.

 

[TLeafsFan]

There is no innovation when we are dealing with terms, particularly a word like "best" which is not really interpretive. Anyway, you've nearly grasped that it isn't a best on best tournament. Mild progress.



It works perfectly fine. I agree that there is no way to determine what team would perform best, but I said that those teams do not have the ability to select their best. That is simply a fact. We already know that the Americans asked to be able to select at least one player under 24, while implying that they asked for more, and were denied, and even Babcock thinks that "some" players under 24 would make the Canadian team if eligible. Moving on from that, team North America and team Europe are clearly not at their best, especially North America since that teams existence implies that all of Canada, USA and North America cannot be at their best.

Food for thought. When Canada won it's last Olympic Gold in Sochi, Stamkos wasn't available to them due to a broken leg. Guess it wasn't a best on best tournament because Canada couldn't ice all their best players.

 

[TLeafsFan]

I'd rather that people that are happy watching world class hockey, can't be bothered voting in an irrelevant poll like this.

 

[TheBigThree]

best on best yet but still will never compare to olympics in stature

 

[JackSlater]

Food for thought. When Canada won it's last Olympic Gold in Sochi, Stamkos wasn't available to them due to a broken leg. Guess it wasn't a best on best tournament because Canada couldn't ice all their best players.

I applaud the effort, but Canada was free to select Stamkos - he was just injured. In fact, Canada did select Stamkos in 2014.

A further issue with the poorly thought out definition of best on best as simply "best players against best players" is that there are plenty of players who are perfectly healthy and better than many players in this tournament, yet they are sitting at home. Obviously the worst forwards, goaltenders and defencemen on various teams (Czechs/Finland/Europe/Young Gunz/Russia) in this tournament are not among the world's best players. It wouldn't be difficult to name 30+ (conservatively) players better than the worst players in this tournament . This is of course only an issue with the poorly thought out definition that some have put forward.

 

[TLeafsFan]

I applaud the effort, but Canada was free to select Stamkos - he was just injured. In fact, Canada did select Stamkos in 2014.

A further issue with the poorly thought out definition of best on best as simply "best players against best players" is that there are plenty of players who are perfectly healthy and better than many players in this tournament, yet they are sitting at home. Obviously the worst forwards, goaltenders and defencemen on various teams (Czechs/Finland/Europe/Young Gunz/Russia) in this tournament are not among the world's best players. It wouldn't be difficult to name 30+ (conservatively) players better than the worst players in this tournament . This is of course only an issue with the poorly thought out definition that some have put forward.

Okay so by that logic, best on best tournaments simply don't exist at all.

Good to know.

Enjoy.

 

[JackSlater]

Okay so by that logic, best on best tournaments simply don't exist at all.

Good to know.

Enjoy.

Yes, by that logic there has never been a best on best tournament. I suspect that you didn't actually read and comprehend what I said, since I said that such a definition is not good, but it's funny that you finally see why that definition is so idiotic. Good stuff.

 

[Jablkon]

Well there are always going to be people questioning why player X was left off a team. Even one that uses its best players to represent their country.

It only subjective opinions of fans that question if the team formed was the "best" team possible or not, like Subban for Canada and Kessel for the US being left off.

The semantics around this tournament being a best on best tournament are just mind boggling to me. Instead of Canada or the US having a U23 on their team or against them is irrelevant. the best U23's of North America are still playing in the tournament, which still makes the tournament a best on best.

Apologize, but you start this semantic with question " are best players in the world playing against and with...?" You basically made statement that there are best players in the world and as I understand to your post you define best of best by best players. I dont agree here for two main reasons. Best of best is historically defined by possibility to pick from all players from your country without any restriction. This is not valid here.

And strictly saying there not only best players in the world as Bellemare is hardly better than Spezza for example. This entire thread is all about semantic but your definitions do not work imo.

 

[Big Phil]

Nice try. People are enjoying it just fine thanks.

The entire format has been criticized something awful on social media. Just because the media pumps up the North American team as if this is some legitimate team doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this tournament is Canada not playing this team in the semis and playing someone like Russia in the best of 3 final. Then we might just forget about the fact that there are two gimmick teams in this tournament.

 

[TLeafsFan]

The entire format has been criticized something awful on social media. Just because the media pumps up the North American team as if this is some legitimate team doesn't make it so. The only thing that can save this tournament is Canada not playing this team in the semis and playing someone like Russia in the best of 3 final. Then we might just forget about the fact that there are two gimmick teams in this tournament.

Yeah, social media is chalked full of new world problems.

I find what the NHL did with the forming of these two completely original teams in an international tournament, quite innovative and refreshing.

What other European country could actually compete and have a change to beat Russia or Sweden?

Would it still be a best on best if Canada drafted for a Canada 1 and Canada 2? Which one would be the official team Canada? Same with the U.S.

Oh well, I guess it works for bobsledding.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[Analyst365]

Yeah, social media is chalked full of new world problems.

I find what the NHL did with the forming of these two completely original teams in an international tournament, quite innovative and refreshing.

What other European country could actually compete and have a change to beat Russia or Sweden?

Would it still be a best on best if Canada drafted for a Canada 1 and Canada 2? Which one would be the official team Canada? Same with the U.S.

Oh well, I guess it works for bobsledding.

Haters gonna hate.

In the same way it would be refreshing and innovative if the NHL did us all a favour and combined the best of the Leafs, Oilers, and Blue Jackets into one team for a few years and based them out of Cleveland.

And if you disagree, well I guess that makes you a hater, doesn't it.