Blue Jays Discussion: Winter Meetings: Because there's no more fitting time to talk baseball than December

[Eyedea]

So, because a player does not crush the ball he sucks? I would have to disagree. I would gladly accept more people who can make constant contact.

I think Rogers has brain washed many people into believing the only way to win is to hit home runs.

I think you're brainwashed into thinking everybody that hits .290-.300 is a solid hitter.

he's worth about the same as a happ, dickey, or estrada and ia only paid half as much.

Uh huh, and the Jays don't have anybody that can reasonably provide the same value as Dickey/Estrada/Happ in the org.

 

[KuleminFan41]

Obviously that's not the case. But if he doesn't crush homers and doesn't hit doubles and doesn't walk, then he has to hit for a ridiculously high average to be even an average hitter. Revere hits for a high enough average that it gets him close to being an average hitter, but the least power of any player in baseball is a hell of a thing to overcome.

What if I told you that baseball wasn't all about hitting for power? I know watching the Blue Jays may change peoples views on how the game is played but Revere does a lot of things well. His speed and ability to steal bases(6th in the league) make up for lack of power. He doesn't walk alot, but he also doesn't strike out a lot, his OBP among regulars was 4th on the team behind the Jays big 3 . He also had the 2nd most hits on the Jays , only 3 hits behind Donaldson. Obviouisly there's more that factors into what makes a good player but he's better than he's given credit for. He is only 27 years old and every year his production believe it or not, keeps improving and playing in this Blue Jays line up will only help him. Is he the perfect lead off guy? No. Is there better? Yes, but he's still pretty good

 

[zeke]

Uh huh, and the Jays don't have anybody that can reasonably provide the same value as Dickey/Estrada/Happ in the org.

i'd say osuna sanchez hutchison are all similar calibre youngsters as pompey.

 

[The Nemesis]

Everyone is below average if they aren't crushing homers apparently

Nope. You're below average if you don't crush homers or get on base reasonably well or just get lots of extra base hits or generally do something better than average aside from slap singles.

There were 36 players last year who hit .290 or better while having at least 500 PAs (arbitrary cutoffs, sure. But enough to weed out the group of guys who had notably high BAs with regular playing time.)

Here is where Revere ranks relative to that group of players in a variety of stats:

OBP: 29th
wRC+: 34th
wOBA: 35th
WAR: 32nd
BB%: 27th
2Bs: 31st
Hard contact %: 34th
GB rate: 4th
Infield Hit %: 5th

Revere has basically 2 skills: he's fast, and he can make a lot of contact with the ball (he ranks 3rd in contact %, 1st in contact % within the strike zone). Unfortunately when the ball leaves his bat it's rarely a useful kind of hit. Most often it's a weak grounder or dribbler that he beats out because he's fast. If yo u can call a .300 average empty (which is doable because batting average is kinda broken as a statistical measure), he hits just about the emptiest .300 you're gonna get. Coupled with poor D that masquerades as mediocre because of his speed and you've got a player that looks great on the surface, but ultimately provides fairly replaceable overall value to the teams he's on.

The fact that the counter-argument to anyone who is indifferent to or dislikes Revere is "so if he doesn't hit HRs he's worthless?" because practically everyone who has stated some amount of dissatisfaction with Revere has made it pointedly clear that's not the case.

It's also fun that it comes with a snide helping of assumptions that watching the Jays' power-heavy offence somehow distorted people into this apparently wrong viewpoint.

 

[mikebel111*]

Pompey over Revere in every aspect.

But I would rather have Tulo in leadoff spot over Revere



Not sure why we brought Revere back.

 

[tml19]

What if I told you that baseball wasn't all about hitting for power? I know watching the Blue Jays may change peoples views on how the game is played but Revere does a lot of things well. His speed and ability to steal bases(6th in the league) make up for lack of power. He doesn't walk alot, but he also doesn't strike out a lot, his OBP among regulars was 4th on the team behind the Jays big 3 . He also had the 2nd most hits on the Jays , only 3 hits behind Donaldson. Obviouisly there's more that factors into what makes a good player but he's better than he's given credit for. He is only 27 years old and every year his production believe it or not, keeps improving and playing in this Blue Jays line up will only help him. Is he the perfect lead off guy? No. Is there better? Yes, but he's still pretty good

False. CC and Travis were also ahead of him in terms of OBP. Now would you rather have Travis provide EBH and get on base at a higher pace or have Revere slap the ball around and hope it gets through. He takes terrible routes defensively and has a noodle of an arm. Improving defense by playing Pompey allows Pillar to also shade towards right-center. Pompey improved his bat by a lot after going back down last year, and should provide passable numbers. Oh, did I mention for almost 7 million dollars cheaper. Revere is not a bad player, but not worth anywhere close to what he is getting paid.

 

[chaosrevolver]

Pompey needs to earn his spot and if he performs, we can always look to move Revere then.

 

[Eyedea]

i'd say osuna sanchez hutchison are all similar calibre youngsters as pompey.

Osuna has never thrown 100 innings in a season and Sanchez has pretty much shown us nothing past A+ that resembles a solid starter moving forward.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Pompey over Revere in every aspect.

But I would rather have Tulo in leadoff spot over Revere



Not sure why we brought Revere back.

To trade him? I mean, he's got to have a decent amount of value right? Maybe we can package him and some other depth and get a bullpen pitcher or some prospects.

 

[Discoverer]

The funny thing in all this is that I'm actually OK with going into the season with Revere as the starting LF because I think he can be reasonably productive. I don't think it's the best allocation of resources and I think Pompey would be a better player right now, but I'm fine with letting Revere start in LF, keeping Pompey in the minors a bit longer, and seeing how things play out.

Just because I would prefer one move doesn't mean I'm entirely against the other.

 

[DaveMatthew]

What are the odds that the Jays make a run at Cliff Lee?

According to Heyman, he's looking for a 1 year deal and his main priority is to win.

The only risk would be a financial one... Shapiro knows him well.... he fills a need...

Seems like the perfect bridge guy since we're hesitant to make long-term financial commitments and are reluctant to trade prospects.

1. Stroman
2. Lee
3. Estrada
4. Happ
5. Dickey

With Hutchison, Chavez and Sanchez available if one of those guys can't hold up. Would be solid.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I'd be all for signing Lee on a 1 year deal

 

[JS19]

One guy has proven over and over again that he can hit major league pitching, the other hasn't, until now stats prove nothing.

One has been the lead-off since August, the other hasn't had many chances (if at all) to prove that he can hit ML pitching consistently.

People who point toward Revere's average for this year, don't realize that it's the emptiest batting average you could ever have for a lead-off. All he does is literally hit singles and that's it. It's also worth looking at wOBA where you'll see:

He barely matches the MLB average. His wRC+ is also uninspiring as it's two points below league average. He's not as good as people make him out to be. Furthermore, there's the issue of fielding him on the left side, where his poor defense and arm make him a miserable LF option.

Frankly, I'm more inclined to give Dalton Pompey a chance than to keep fielding a mediocre baseball player.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[hockeywiz542]

According to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports, the Orioles, Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, Diamondbacks, Marlins, and Yankees are all interested in acquiring pitcher Shelby Miller from the Atlanta Braves.

The Atlanta Braves are seeking young players in exchange for Shelby Miller. They are particularly in need of bats.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer...eams-about-shelby-miller-could-be-traded-soon

NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- The Braves were talking late into Monday night about young starter Shelby Miller with an unidentified team, and there is a belief he could be traded in coming days, maybe even by the end of the Winter Meetings.

The Orioles are one of a few new entrants in a derby that already includes the Cubs, Dodgers, Giants, Diamondbacks, Marlins, Yankees and others. Baltimore tried for Miller when he was with St. Louis.

Miller has drawn big interest on the trade market, and it only has intensified with the free -agent starting pitching market taking off. The Braves compare him to Jordan Zimmermann, who got $110-million over five years from the Tigers.

Miller had a 3.02 ERA last year, his first in Atlanta, after being traded over from the Cardinals, significantly raising his value. He was acquired in a four-player trade for Jason Heyward, who was only a rental. Miller's other big selling point is that he is still three years from free agency.

The Braves seek young players and particularly need bats.

 

[MJ65]

Chris Cotillo @ChrisCotillo
Industry speculation growing that the Jays could add another starter even after Happ and Estrada signings.

Tom @Haudricourt
Was told Toronto talked to #Brewers today but they have Tulo at SS, Martin at C, both long-term, so not sure what match might be.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

what about someone like pedro alverez . he'll be a lot cheaper and is younger then chris davis. , I also wonder who do you think is our biggest trade chip atm.

 

[The Nemesis]

I wouldn't want to go anywhere near Japanese Infielders. the history of them working out is.... not good.

that said it's especially a non-issue for the Jays in this case. Matsuda is a 32-year-old 3B. He might have trouble trying to supplant the guy in front of him on the Blue Jays depth chart.

 

[The Nemesis]

what about someone like pedro alverez . he'll be a lot cheaper and is younger then chris davis. , I also wonder who do you think is our biggest trade chip atm.

Rather run with Colabello/Smoak than Alvarez. He has name recognition/cache because he was a 2nd overall draft pick and he's got some pop, but he's a trainwreck in the field and a strikeout machine at the plate.

 

[Bad News Benning]

If there is an Alvarez on the jays next season it won't be Pedro.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

I haven't seen much about him that's why I asked. pretty much just saw the left handed bat. honestly the only way I could see davis signing here would be on a 1-2 year deal to up his value mashing in the dome. where he has always hit extreme well.

im not sure where tulo fits on this team. hopefully he can get accustomed to being in t.o but if not I would prefer to explore moving him rather then having a disgruntled employee, but again that would be a catch 22, as we don't have a replacement ss aside from goins. expecially with travis on the dl to start

 

[MJ65]

Pompey needs to earn his spot and if he performs, we can always look to move Revere then.

Pompey is not a every day player at this point of his career and I am not sure if he is ever going to be

 

[The Nemesis]

I haven't seen much about him that's why I asked. pretty much just saw the left handed bat. honestly the only way I could see davis signing here would be on a 1-2 year deal to up his value mashing in the dome. where he has always hit extreme well.

im not sure where tulo fits on this team. hopefully he can get accustomed to being in t.o but if not I would prefer to explore moving him rather then having a disgruntled employee, but again that would be a catch 22, as we don't have a replacement ss aside from goins. expecially with travis on the dl to start

Que? Tulowitzki said he was upset that the Rockies blindsided him with the trade because he had hoped to be involved/kept in the loop if talks of a deal including him were ongoing, and that the whirlwind of the rest of the season afterwards didn't give him time to adjust. I don't recall him ever saying that he was unhappy to be in Toronto or giving the impression that he would be a "disgruntled employee."

There is absolutely zero reason at this point to even need to entertain the idea of having to trade him.

Pompey is not a every day player at this point of his career and I am not sure if he is ever going to be

Dalton Pompey is going to be 23 in a few days. And he's bee in AAA since he was 21. I think it's just a touch foolish to be sitting here presuming that he'll never be an everyday player in the bigs right now, no matter how much uncertainty you qualify that expectation with.

 

[tml19]

Pompey is not a every day player at this point of his career and I am not sure if he is ever going to be

 

[Habsfan18]

I think people are forgetting just who Troy Tulowitzki is. He's an incredible baseball player. He will bounce back, mark my words.

Josh Donaldson and Troy Tulowitzki. Still blows my mind that they are both Jays.