Winnipeg Sun: Jets, Mark Chipman, call for help as attendance decreases

[AtlantaWhaler]

You guys with the chips on your shoulders about Southern teams are literally just as obnoxious as all those annoying relocationistas. My lord.

For years, the business forum (and others) has mostly been "move Atlanta, Phoenix, Carolina, Florida, Nashville, etc..." threads. Certainly an immature view (I realize that shot was aimed at me), but there is a lot of pent-up frustration from southern market fans. I do see where you joined this site just 3 years ago... this back-and-forth has gone on since I joined 15 years ago.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I hope you're not saying this is a southern market thing. A lot of your traditional teams have had huge stretches of poor attendance. Chicago, NYI, Boston, Pittsburgh, etc. Before moving, Winnipeg, QC and Hartford had abysmal attendance for a long time.

Let's also not forget that Winnipeg currently has to full a 15K arena for a sell out

No it's not a "southern market thing" - or at least not exclusively a "southern market thing". Several southern markets have proven themselves to be very successful - think Nashville, Tampa and Vegas. I'm not anti-southern hockey.

But to name names - Florida and Phoenix. The situation in Winnipeg is concerning and people are right to ask questions. But you can't compare the situation in Winnipeg to those other two markets I mentioned.

You could probably add Columbus as well, to add a non-southern team.

Which doesn't mean I'm saying those three teams need to relocate. It's just the situation in Winnipeg, or some of those other markets you mentioned which had cyclical attendance problems, are different

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Your comment was "abysmal attendance," implying sub-[insert cutoff #.] As opposed to the other way, over-[insert cutoff #] which after seeing the numbers, trying to change the narrative would be said "cherry-picking."

I chose 14k and applied that standard because the league-average attendance in Quebec's final few seasons in the NHL was in the 14.5-14.7k range, that'd be average. "[A]bysmal," to me would be below average so I dropped it to a round 14k that would be below average and a fair comp.

Fair enough. Just replying to the comment that seemed to say that southern teams have had bad attendance every year.

 

[heretik27]

You guys with the chips on your shoulders about Southern teams are literally just as obnoxious as all those annoying relocationistas. My lord.

Yep, these threads always seem to devolve after like 5 posts and cease to have much meaningful discussion outside of the mudslinging opportunists.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

No it's not a "southern market thing" - or at least not exclusively a "southern market thing". Several southern markets have proven themselves to be very successful - think Nashville, Tampa and Vegas. I'm not anti-southern hockey.

But to name names - Florida and Phoenix. The situation in Winnipeg is concerning and people are right to ask questions. But you can't compare the situation in Winnipeg to those other two markets I mentioned.

You could probably add Columbus as well, to add a non-southern team.

Which doesn't mean I'm saying those three teams need to relocate. It's just the situation in Winnipeg, or some of those other markets you mentioned which had cyclical attendance problems, are different

Well, you replied to a "southern market" post. That's why I took it as a southern market generalization.

Florida had great attendance last year and Columbus appears to have had good attendance over teh last couple years.

I'm not sure why any of those markets, including Winnipeg, are different.

 

[Gnashville]

You guys with the chips on your shoulders about Southern teams are literally just as obnoxious as all those annoying relocationistas. My lord.

Revenge is a Dish best served cold and it’s very cold in Winnipeg!!

 

[Gnashville]

No it's not a "southern market thing" - or at least not exclusively a "southern market thing". Several southern markets have proven themselves to be very successful - think Nashville, Tampa and Vegas. I'm not anti-southern hockey.

But to name names - Florida and Phoenix. The situation in Winnipeg is concerning and people are right to ask questions. But you can't compare the situation in Winnipeg to those other two markets I mentioned.

You could probably add Columbus as well, to add a non-southern team.

Which doesn't mean I'm saying those three teams need to relocate. It's just the situation in Winnipeg, or some of those other markets you mentioned which had cyclical attendance problems, are different

Florida and Phoenix have the same problems though. An arena in the middle of nowhere, poor management, losing seasons, ect. but all Southern markets have been attacked on here from time to time.

 

[Yukon Joe]

I'm not sure why any of those markets, including Winnipeg, are different.

Because there's a difference between a team that has a good track record of attendance, but is on a downward cycle, and a team that has a bad record of attendance - even if they have the occasional good year.

Now obviously for Winnipeg if 11k attendance becomes the "new normal" for years to come that's an incredibly bad sign.

 

[Stumbledore]

Because there's a difference between a team that has a good track record of attendance, but is on a downward cycle, and a team that has a bad record of attendance - even if they have the occasional good year.

Now obviously for Winnipeg if 11k attendance becomes the "new normal" for years to come that's an incredibly bad sign.

Perhaps the other difference is that the Winnipeg Jets are co-owned by the the 3rd Baron Thomson of Fleet, recently (November, 2022) ranked as the 23rd richest person in the world with a net worth of over 54 billion dollars.

I don't think the Winnipeg Jets are moving anywhere else during a downward attendance cycle.

 

[oldunclehue]

Perhaps the other difference is that the Winnipeg Jets are co-owned by the the 3rd Baron Thomson of Fleet, recently (November, 2022) ranked as the 23rd richest person in the world with a net worth of over 54 billion dollars.

I don't think the Winnipeg Jets are moving anywhere else during a downward attendance cycle.

I agree with you and Yukon on this, the fact that the money backing TNSE is THOMSON, he has a stake in the area having an NHL team so his other ventures are still making money. Only issue is how long will it last?

As an above poster said as a STH, the treatment of STH has been awful and continues to be.

One thing for me....up until about 2018 a Jets thing was the "it" thing to do, people from all over the province were excited and wanted to go to games. Multiple STH groups from the city I live in were all in to go to games, drive the hours and make it special. Now none of them do, no one talks about going to games, no one is going to the games. Its lost its "it" factor.

If that continues and becomes the norm around the province...very hard to turn that mindset around.

They need something now more than ever to get excited about and our roster doesn't have that player that keeps people talking.

 

[These Are The Days]

No it's not a "southern market thing" - or at least not exclusively a "southern market thing". Several southern markets have proven themselves to be very successful - think Nashville, Tampa and Vegas. I'm not anti-southern hockey.

But to name names - Florida and Phoenix. The situation in Winnipeg is concerning and people are right to ask questions. But you can't compare the situation in Winnipeg to those other two markets I mentioned.

You could probably add Columbus as well, to add a non-southern team.

Which doesn't mean I'm saying those three teams need to relocate. It's just the situation in Winnipeg, or some of those other markets you mentioned which had cyclical attendance problems, are different

Nevermind Florida and Phoenix having arenas in the middle of nowhere. You could give their last 20 years of mediocrity (until recently for the Panthers) to Vancouver and no one would show up. Hell if any other team landed Bedard the Hawks would be back tonight drawing 12,000 a night again after a few years in the wilderness. And no one would dare say a word. The southern markets just get unfairly crapped on because Canada can't win a Cup anymore on top of having to lose teams while the south got them in the 90's.

I'm sorry for how bad that sounds but it's not any more complicated than that. I have never seen a sport where so many fans give a crap about where a team is located and why they don't deserve to have the team anymore

 

[BKIslandersFan]

You guys with the chips on your shoulders about Southern teams are literally just as obnoxious as all those annoying relocationistas. My lord.

Given how much trolling Canada First people did all these years, I get it.

 

[Jets4Life]

I am well aware that, per capita, a Canadian city will have more hockey fans than an American city. An American metro as small as Winnipeg's would never be able to support an NHL team, for instance.

Winnipeg is going to eventually surpass Buffalo in population. Probably within the next 20 years. People do not realise that cities in Canada are growing much faster than most of their US counterparts. Take places like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, KC, and Indianapolis.

In the 80s/90s, to suggest that Edmonton, Calgary, and Ottawa would not only eventually catch up to them in population (they ahve already caught up to Milwaukee), but will almost certainly hit 2 million people by 2035, would ahve seemed like a pipe dream when Canadian teams were struggling in the 90s.

Recent population estimates have Winnipeg's metro area hitting 1,000,000 people by the early 2030's. Buffalo, OTOH, is at 1.15 million and has actually lost people in the last 30 years. In the 2000's Buffalo was selling out. It can be argued the only reason Buffalo has had attendance problems lately is the 12 year long playoff drought. If marketed right, I have no doubt the Jets can easily have 95%+ capacity. It's TNSE that is the problem, chasing customers away with horrible customer service.

 

[Jets4Life]

Blue Bombers seem to be doing fine.

The game day experience is day and night compared to the Jets. The Bomber organisation deserves credit for making the games an enjoyable experience. TNSE really needs to copy the model that the Bombers have implemented.

To be fair, the Blue Bombers...

- Play only once a week,
- Have cheaper tickets, and
- Have been a near dynasty for the past few years.

Jets would easily be selling out if any one of those things were the case for them.

To be fair, the Bombers are not in a major league like the NHL Jets.

The tickets are relatively comparable in price

The Jets have only missed the playoffs once since 2017.

 

[Jets4Life]

Nevermind Florida and Phoenix having arenas in the middle of nowhere. You could give their last 20 years of mediocrity (until recently for the Panthers) to Vancouver and no one would show up. Hell if any other team landed Bedard the Hawks would be back tonight drawing 12,000 a night again after a few years in the wilderness. And no one would dare say a word.

Having an arena in the outer suburbs has always been a deterrent for fans, and works as a determinant for people wanting to buy tickets. I have absolutely no idea why Florida built the arena far away from the city of Miami, off the Florida turnpike.

Suburban arenas almost never work for leagues that play 40+ home games a year. Ottawa, Cleveland, Washington, Arizona, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, and others have found this out the hard way.

I'm sorry for how bad that sounds but it's not any more complicated than that. I have never seen a sport where so many fans give a crap about where a team is located and why they don't deserve to have the team anymore

Many fans will be deterred from going to games (i.e Ottawa) if the only way many in the city can attend, is by driving over an hour through the city. If we look at Calgary for example, the rapid transit line drops people from all ends of the city to the Saddledome, and in most cases, it's a 30 minute commute from the LRT station in the suburbs.

We also have to keep in mind, many Calgarians will be in the densely populated bletline area (wher 17 Ave NW is located), and some may decide to take in a Flames game, since it would be a 15 minute walk to buy tickets. It's also equidistant to all parts of Calgary. Ottawa has none of these advantages. This is also why Florida has problems drawing fans.

 

[edog37]

I was always told Winnipeg would pay into revenue sharing every year and never have any attendance issues! An NHL franchise is a license to print money in Canada!

Exactly. I’m all for nostalgia but I can’t stand hypocrisy.

 

[Jets4Life]

Nevermind Florida and Phoenix having arenas in the middle of nowhere. You could give their last 20 years of mediocrity (until recently for the Panthers) to Vancouver and no one would show up.

That is definitely not true in the case of Arizona. They has some exceptionally good teams for a 3-4 year period, finishing with 50+ wins in one season, and advancing to the Conference Finals in 2012. The irony is that during that period, Coyotes attendance was at it's lowest ever, averaging around 12,000 fans/game.

Hell if any other team landed Bedard the Hawks would be back tonight drawing 12,000 a night again after a few years in the wilderness.

That, in itself, has absolutely nothing to do with the Chicago market, which has been historically strong. The Blackhawks have been god-awful for the last few years. Throw in the Kyle Beach scandal, and COVID, and it's obvious why Chicago would ahve only drawn 12,000 fans this year without a generational player.

And no one would dare say a word. The southern markets just get unfairly crapped on because Canada can't win a Cup anymore on top of having to lose teams while the south got them in the 90's.

I totally agree. However, it was not to be unexpected. Bettman and the owners were more than willing to move small market Canadian teams to US cities. This is not lost on us when we see a team like Phoenix being bailed out for 15 years. For most of the 2000s, there was quite a degree of bitterness in Canada, considering we lost the Jets and Nordiques, while the Oilers and Flames nearly relocated to American cities.

Time heals everything, and once Winnipeg got the Jets back, the animosity towards Bettman and the sunbelt teams subsides eventually. I would be the first person to welcome back an Atlanta NHL franchise with open arms, considering how poorly the Thrashers were run from 2003-11.

I'm sorry for how bad that sounds but it's not any more complicated than that. I have never seen a sport where so many fans give a crap about where a team is located and why they don't deserve to have the team anymore

Canadians have somewhat of an inferiority complex with non-traditional markets. Some of it is justified, and some is not. It is what it is though...

 

[blueandgoldguy]

I hope you're not saying this is a southern market thing. A lot of your traditional teams have had huge stretches of poor attendance. Chicago, NYI, Boston, Pittsburgh, etc. Before moving, Winnipeg, QC and Hartford had abysmal attendance for a long time.

Let's also not forget that Winnipeg currently has to full a 15K arena for a sell out

huh

 

[blueandgoldguy]

According to the Googles, The Nords only hit 15K (barely) 3 times in their 15-year history

Their arena barely seated over 15,000. Their attendance relative to the rest of the NHL teams was at least average. Their percentage of seats filled was above average relative to the other 21 teams in the NHL in the 80s.

 

[These Are The Days]

Having an arena in the outer suburbs has always been a deterrent for fans, and works as a determinant for people wanting to buy tickets. I have absolutely no idea why Florida built the arena far away from the city of Miami, off the Florida turnpike.

Suburban arenas almost never work for leagues that play 40+ home games a year. Ottawa, Cleveland, Washington, Arizona, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, and others have found this out the hard way.



Many fans will be deterred from going to games (i.e Ottawa) if the only way many in the city can attend, is by driving over an hour through the city. If we look at Calgary for example, the rapid transit line drops people from all ends of the city to the Saddledome, and in most cases, it's a 30 minute commute from the LRT station in the suburbs.

We also have to keep in mind, many Calgarians will be in the densely populated bletline area (wher 17 Ave NW is located), and some may decide to take in a Flames game, since it would be a 15 minute walk to buy tickets. It's also equidistant to all parts of Calgary. Ottawa has none of these advantages. This is also why Florida has problems drawing fans.

This resonates with me. I'm a Rays fan and St. Pete is a 45-60 minute haul from the rest of Bay Area civilization

 

[edog37]

The whole “ move every sunbelt team to real hockey markets” are pretty silent in this thread


Funny how sunbelt don’t get this benefit of the doubt

Exactly. Amazing the whole high horse entitled attitude by certain fan bases as well. 100% hypocritical by those who imposed the standard in the first place.

 

[These Are The Days]

That is definitely not true in the case of Arizona. They has some exceptionally good teams for a 3-4 year period, finishing with 50+ wins in one season, and advancing to the Conference Finals in 2012. The irony is that during that period, Coyotes attendance was at it's lowest ever, averaging around 12,000 fans/game.



That, in itself, has absolutely nothing to do with the Chicago market, which has been historically strong. The Blackhawks have been god-awful for the last few years. Throw in the Kyle Beach scandal, and COVID, and it's obvious why Chicago would ahve only drawn 12,000 fans this year without a generational player.



I totally agree. However, it was not to be unexpected. Bettman and the owners were more than willing to move small market Canadian teams to US cities. This is not lost on us when we see a team like Phoenix being bailed out for 15 years. For most of the 2000s, there was quite a degree of bitterness in Canada, considering we lost the Jets and Nordiques, while the Oilers and Flames nearly relocated to American cities.

Time heals everything, and once Winnipeg got the Jets back, the animosity towards Bettman and the sunbelt teams subsides eventually. I would be the first person to welcome back an Atlanta NHL franchise with open arms, considering how poorly the Thrashers were run from 2003-11.



Canadians have somewhat of an inferiority complex with non-traditional markets. Some of it is justified, and some is not. It is what it is though...

Not to beat the "I'm a Rays fan" drum too many times but I can't imagine a fanbase becoming emotionally invested in a team that hears "WE'RE COMIN TO GET YOUUUU!!! -Love, Canada" for 10+ years and goes through owners like a sick child with a runny nose goes through Kleenex. Nevermind becoming emotionally invested in a good team you fear to lose. The Phoenix tenure has been the most dysfunctional franchise in history and I don't necessarily blame the fans for not showing up. The Rays only just agreed to stay in St. Pete after the whole "We need to play in Montreal in order to be viable" speech from our own owner. And people wonder why no one shows up

People think every non traditional market is supposed to just smile and shell out like Toronto did in the Ballard years no matter what or else pack em up and move em to Hamilton

 

[Jets4Life]

Not to beat the "I'm a Rays fan" drum too many times but I can't imagine a fanbase becoming emotionally invested in a team that hears "WE'RE COMIN TO GET YOUUUU!!! -Love, Canada" for 10+ years and goes through owners like a sick child with a runny nose goes through Kleenex. Nevermind becoming emotionally invested in a good team you fear to lose.

One of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard on the forum. Trust me, there is not a large contingent of Montreal baseball fans harassing Tampa Bay.

People think every non traditional market is supposed to just smile and shell out like Toronto did in the Ballard years no matter what or else pack em up and move em to Hamilton

Please elaborate. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Salsero1]

One of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard on the forum. Trust me, there is not a large contingent of Montreal baseball fans harassing Tampa Bay. You could at least try to make this believable.



Please elaborate. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I believe OP is talking about the Coyotes, not the Rays. I can't imagine wanting to become emotionally invested in a team that has been under so much relocation pressure and any mainstream media attention they get is about how they don't belong there and are imminently moving.

As far as the good seasons they had from 10-12, those came during a time when the team went bankrupt and were under league ownership. I've spoken with fans from that time and many of them thought the final playoff game in each season was the literal last game they were going to play in Arizona. Those are not circumstances any team in any market can thrive in.

 

[Stumbledore]

I agree with you and Yukon on this, the fact that the money backing TNSE is THOMSON, he has a stake in the area having an NHL team so his other ventures are still making money. Only issue is how long will it last?

I don't know. How long does it take to burn through 54 billion dollars?