Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

MardyBum

Registered User
Jul 4, 2012
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17,627
Winnipeg, Manitoba
And our eye test offsets the models.

Except of course your ass can't describe what you did seven weeks ago on a specific day. You can't even remember personal shit consistently. So you think you're a proper judge of what happened previously in hockey games? Over a season? What a player looked like over a season YEARS ago?

The ego.

List out the Jets first 10 games, go check the scores and give us a summary of your thoughts on how they played each game.

...

I agree, f*** that lol.

Game to game the eyetest is fine, but over a season unless you're writing it down it's nonsense and your own notes would be meaningless years down the line without numbers.
 

Buffdog

Registered User
Feb 13, 2019
8,487
20,756
Except of course your ass can't describe what you did seven weeks ago on a specific day. You can't even remember personal shit consistently. So you think you're a proper judge of what happened previously in hockey games? Over a season? What a player looked like over a season YEARS ago?

The ego.

List out the Jets first 10 games, go check the scores and give us a summary of your thoughts on how they played each game.

I agree, f*** that lol.
Lol to post THAT and bring up someone else's ego?

Classic @MardyBum right there
 

MardyBum

Registered User
Jul 4, 2012
16,795
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Winnipeg, Manitoba
Lol to post THAT and bring up someone else's ego?

Classic @MardyBum right there

Tell us again how real hockey is played. I don't need an ego because I'm not arguing from a point of personal opinion.

Tell us how your experiences playing nothing level hockey gave you a keen eye on the minute levels of hockey.


You're not coaching. We're all reacting to things we have no control of. They can be measured. You can form an opinion about recent events, can see a player gripping the stick too much and use your "eye test" to predict he's primed for a breakout or w/e(ignoring analytics can do the same), but the broader the scale and the further you go back in time the more useless your brain becomes.

Sorry?
 

Buffdog

Registered User
Feb 13, 2019
8,487
20,756
Tell us again how real hockey is played. I don't need an ego because I'm not arguing from a point of personal opinion.

Tell us how your experiences playing nothing level hockey gave you a keen eye on the minute levels of hockey.


You're not coaching. We're all reacting to things we have no control of. They can be measured. You can form an opinion about recent events, can see a player gripping the stick too much and use your "eye test" to predict he's primed for a breakout or w/e(ignoring analytics can do the same), but the broader the scale and the further you go back in time the more useless your brain becomes.

Sorry?
First of all, define "nothing level". I did play AAA, junior and 3rd rate college hockey. That gives me insight because I did exist in locker room dynamics and had to play after shitty travel experiences. What level did ypu play, do that I can gauge your insights next to mine?
 

MardyBum

Registered User
Jul 4, 2012
16,795
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Winnipeg, Manitoba
First of all, define "nothing level". I did play AAA, junior and 3rd rate college hockey. That gives me insight because I did exist in locker room dynamics and had to play after shitty travel experiences. What level did ypu play, do that I can gauge your insights next to mine?

Nothing level is anything the NHL would consider nothing level, so that.

"These nerds didnt play enough they can't comment"

So you played low level hockey and that allows you to comment on performance of players over large stretches as anything other than a fan?

Of course former hockey players as yourself and others would be far more useful in a discussion about the actual drama of the Jets a few years back, but this was about performance on the ice, not "culture" and "travel troubles" and the usual hockey player bullshit.

I didn't play hockey to any high level. I'm not a great hockey mind. It doesn't take one to understand modern day "analytics". I'm not pretending my years of sportsing makes me an expert on anything.

You're the future HNIC broadcaster, not me.
 

Buffdog

Registered User
Feb 13, 2019
8,487
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Nothing level is anything the NHL would consider nothing level, so that.

"These nerds didnt play enough they can't comment"

So you played low level hockey and that allows you to comment on performance of players over large stretches as anything other than a fan?

Of course former hockey players as yourself and others would be far more useful in a discussion about the actual drama of the Jets a few years back, but this was about performance on the ice, not "culture" and "travel troubles" and the usual hockey player bullshit.

I didn't play hockey to any high level. I'm not a great hockey mind. It doesn't take one to understand modern day "analytics". I'm not pretending my years of sportsing makes me an expert on anything.

You're the future HNIC broadcaster, not me.
I like to put it this way

I hated soccer growing up. I was a baseball player in the summers. I'd laugh and say that "soccer was a game for guys who couldn't hit a curveball"

Fast forward to a couple of years ago and one of my daughters started showing some real potential in soccer. She became part of a regional program that feeds into the national women's team program. We end up in Vancouver for her showcase and since the program is run by the Whitecaps, we go to a game

I was shocked and impressed by the whole thing. Someone suggested "Welcome to Wrexham" as a show to watch. All of a sudden I'm becoming a soccer fan. The Euro Cup and Copa America, along with watching my daughter play higher levels, has turned me into a soccer fan

I decided I needed a Premier League team to cheer for. For some reason, I picked Arsenal.

So why the wall of text? Because as I cheer for them and watch them win and lose, under NO CIRCUMSTANCE would i even pretend to know what soccer is or isn't at that level because I didn't play. And that's regardless of how many advanced soccer stats i may or may not look at - and there's a TON - it wouldn't make me qualified for f*** all

But that's you
 
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Buffdog

Registered User
Feb 13, 2019
8,487
20,756
I didn't play hockey to any high level. I'm not a great hockey mind. It doesn't take one to understand modern day "analytics". I'm not pretending my years of sportsing makes me an expert on anything.

You're the future HNIC broadcaster, not me.
BTW, you didn't need to say that. Anyone who has played at least to a moderately high level can tell that by the shit you post

There are others as well that I'm thinking of but won't name
 

MardyBum

Registered User
Jul 4, 2012
16,795
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Winnipeg, Manitoba
BTW, you didn't need to say that. Anyone who has played at least to a moderately high level can tell that by the shit you post

There are others as well that I'm thinking of but won't name

Yeah, no worries, would rather not be attached to the detritus of former hockey players floating around.

Spoooooky, he's going to name names! *gasp*
 
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Jet

Chibby!
Jul 20, 2004
34,435
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Florida
I know the models warned us about the canadian division effect on pionks contract year

This one doesnt match the eye test but ill watch him now to see if we are over estimating him because we want him to work out

I think pionk benefits from samberg more than the other way around - id like to see this model at the end of the season as well
Id agree that Samberg benefits Pionks game more than the other, simply due to offensive defenseman's role and the risk it inherently comes with.

Offensive defensemen that are also good/ great defensively are a bit of a unicorn. Most defensemen are are either really good at one side of the game, and not so great at the other.

Thinking about what a defenseman has to do to be good offensively is more skill based, whereas being good defensively is iq, discipline, strength, and muscle memory. Obviously there's skill here too, but it's a different application of skillset.

Being good at one comes at the detriment of the other, naturally, so it takes a special player to be able to process the game in a way to allow for excellence at both.

Pionk benefits the team by being able to produce offence, and Samberg allows him to do that by covering for him and helping him get us sorted in our zone.
 

Jet

Chibby!
Jul 20, 2004
34,435
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Florida
I feel like Toby Enstrom was always overrated based on his Corsi, based on the fact that he played with the likes of Buff, and when he wasn't playing with Buff, it was Bogosian, Trouba or Myers. Never had a substandard d partner in his whole career, but didn't really deliver the mail so to speak. It's funny that Pionk can't reach Enstrom's lofty heights, heading towards his 6th straight season of 30 plus points, and 5 playoff appearances in 6 years in a top 4 role, often the shutdown role, which was rarely Toby's in his career here. If Heinola ends up being as soft as Toby boxing out, the Jets are in trouble. Puck movement and positioning are the two areas where he would be similar.
Toby in my mind was the epitome of a 2 way defenseman. He was competent everywhere, and so smart. He found a way as a small defenseman to win battles with much bigger men, using his stick and smarts.

Sure he did have his weaknesses, he wasn't physical so he struggled with net front with and some contact battles on the boards, and when he lost a step he really took a beating at the end.

However, he's the prime example of how a smart, mobile defenseman with defensive chops could help a guy like Buff. In the early days he constant saved 33s bacon after ill advised pinches, staying up in the play, and big hits. Then when Buff decided he wanted to actually play some D, Toby contributed at both ends of the rink and helped Buff with zone exits.

He was Buffs Demelo/ Samberg, but with offensive prowess.

I think he's actually a bit underrated here, whether that be advanced stats, size or partner bias coming into play.
 

Slimy Sculpin

Registered User
Dec 29, 2013
1,604
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Toby in my mind was the epitome of a 2 way defenseman. He was competent everywhere, and so smart. He found a way as a small defenseman to win battles with much bigger men, using his stick and smarts.

Sure he did have his weaknesses, he wasn't physical so he struggled with net front with and some contact battles on the boards, and when he lost a step he really took a beating at the end.

However, he's the prime example of how a smart, mobile defenseman with defensive chops could help a guy like Buff. In the early days he constant saved 33s bacon after ill advised pinches, staying up in the play, and big hits. Then when Buff decided he wanted to actually play some D, Toby contributed at both ends of the rink and helped Buff with zone exits.

He was Buffs Demelo/ Samberg, but with offensive prowess.

I think he's actually a bit underrated here, whether that be advanced stats, size or partner bias coming into play.
Good assessment of Enstrom's play. I was a fan of his but a lot of my "hot stove" buddies were not. He was a small guy but he carrired a big stick!
 
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Flair Hay

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Jun 22, 2010
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Toby in my mind was the epitome of a 2 way defenseman. He was competent everywhere, and so smart. He found a way as a small defenseman to win battles with much bigger men, using his stick and smarts.

Sure he did have his weaknesses, he wasn't physical so he struggled with net front with and some contact battles on the boards, and when he lost a step he really took a beating at the end.

However, he's the prime example of how a smart, mobile defenseman with defensive chops could help a guy like Buff. In the early days he constant saved 33s bacon after ill advised pinches, staying up in the play, and big hits. Then when Buff decided he wanted to actually play some D, Toby contributed at both ends of the rink and helped Buff with zone exits.

He was Buffs Demelo/ Samberg, but with offensive prowess.

I think he's actually a bit underrated here, whether that be advanced stats, size or partner bias coming into play.
Well said
 

DRW204

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Dec 26, 2010
23,124
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He had a broken ankle. Not sure any of our fillers on the 2nd and 3rd pair were better in previous years, but contracts get in the way, of course you'd have to be dumb to think it's a perfect science
he played 40+ games w/ the moose last year. maybe he should've taken his rehab more seriously , or played better in the AHL and ultimately could have played with the Jets. Heinola debuted in 19-20 since then the Jets either brought in and/or played over him at LD; forbort, stanley, j.benn, dillon, samberg, capobianco & now fleury. and this is across a multitude of coaches.

no shit contracts matter, guess who signs or trades for those players with those contracts? while keeping tabs and evaluating the organizational depth, including young players or prospects, & how they could help the NHL line up.....it's the same GM. you think if heinola is some great dmen they would not have got the Dmen above to play ahead of him? for instance, trade 2nds for dillon and his 3year deal if they knew heinola was going to be the best shit ever? Or give Samberg a look....maybe just maaaybe he's not as good as you think and the Jets did not have confidence in his play, of course you'd have to be dumb to think otherwise.

& trying to shit on samberg in a way to big up heinola is hilarious. samberg actually came in performed extremely well his way up the NHL ranks.
 
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BoneDocUK

Recovering hockey fandoc
Oct 1, 2015
6,965
14,914
Toby in my mind was the epitome of a 2 way defenseman. He was competent everywhere, and so smart. He found a way as a small defenseman to win battles with much bigger men, using his stick and smarts.

Sure he did have his weaknesses, he wasn't physical so he struggled with net front with and some contact battles on the boards, and when he lost a step he really took a beating at the end.

However, he's the prime example of how a smart, mobile defenseman with defensive chops could help a guy like Buff. In the early days he constant saved 33s bacon after ill advised pinches, staying up in the play, and big hits. Then when Buff decided he wanted to actually play some D, Toby contributed at both ends of the rink and helped Buff with zone exits.

He was Buffs Demelo/ Samberg, but with offensive prowess.

I think he's actually a bit underrated here, whether that be advanced stats, size or partner bias coming into play.

Great sequence of posts, and a very useful analysis of what we might call the complementarity of D partners. Buff benefited from Enstrom, and eventually Toby from Buff. Trouba was never better than with JMo, and while JMo had to suppress his offense in that pairing, they were very effective. It's maybe the most sum of its parts position in hockey.

The clue's in the words, I guess -- D are always "partners," or "pairings," never just "linemates." They don't need to play the same game at the same level, but they do need to have the smarts and experience to understand each other's game and be in the right place at the right time to fill in the gaps.

Samberg has that brain, and a skillset to make sense of it, which is why IMO he was able to play so well with Schmidt and now Pionk, who play such different games. There's immense value in being that sort of player, even if he isn't getting Norris or all-star votes.

And that ability to form a pairing is what holds a player like Stanley back as much as his footspeed or tendancy to panic. He's always playing his game, and rarely to my eyes playing the same mental, circumstantial and positional game as his partner, which means difficulties for both of them.

I haven't seen enough of Salmo this year, but in my limited viewings last year he seemed to be much further ahead in his ability to adapt to partners and specific game states. I do think Heinola has that ability also.

Not sure that the Jets have another JMo in the wings, but if they can turn out a few more with Samberg levels of complementarity then they may have enough to go far.
 

Crocket

Registered User
Jul 14, 2013
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he played 40+ games w/ the moose last year. maybe he should've taken his rehab more seriously , or played better in the AHL and ultimately could have played with the Jets. Heinola debuted in 19-20 since then the Jets either brought in and/or played over him at LD; forbort, stanley, j.benn, dillon, samberg, capobianco & now fleury. and this is across a multitude of coaches.

no shit contracts matter, guess who signs or trades for those players with those contracts? while keeping tabs and evaluating the organizational depth, including young players or prospects, & how they could help the NHL line up.....it's the same GM. you think if heinola is some great dmen they would not have got the Dmen above to play ahead of him? for instance, trade 2nds for dillon and his 3year deal if they knew heinola was going to be the best shit ever? Or give Samberg a look....maybe just maaaybe he's not as good as you think and the Jets did not have confidence in his play, of course you'd have to be dumb to think otherwise.

& trying to shit on samberg in a way to big up heinola is hilarious. samberg actually came in performed extremely well his way up the NHL ranks.
I said I like Samberg. Heinola is only just turned 23, he's inline with most NHL D who start at around 22 or 23, factoring in his 1 year off.

Why do you think the Jets are so high on Ville? Because he dominated the AHL. And because he's played well when called up. That's why he made the team last year. Other than the ankle setback he's on track.

He may not pan out, but the Jets are giving him the chance because he's literally our top D prospect player right now. That's how this works. You give your prospects a chance to succeed. That's what they are doing. Same with Samberg, he was years in development and here we are. Samberg is almost 3 years older than Heinola.
 
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Whileee

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May 29, 2010
46,575
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Arniel tonight, after Stanley took 3 minors and was benched in the 3rd because he couldn't be trusted...

"Stanley's a big body and we need him in the top 6. He won't get better in the press box."

Heinola is cooked. No chance he's going to get a shot at an NHL career with the Jets.
 

Howard Chuck

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Jan 24, 2012
15,896
20,837
Winnipeg
Toby in my mind was the epitome of a 2 way defenseman. He was competent everywhere, and so smart. He found a way as a small defenseman to win battles with much bigger men, using his stick and smarts.

Sure he did have his weaknesses, he wasn't physical so he struggled with net front with and some contact battles on the boards, and when he lost a step he really took a beating at the end.

However, he's the prime example of how a smart, mobile defenseman with defensive chops could help a guy like Buff. In the early days he constant saved 33s bacon after ill advised pinches, staying up in the play, and big hits. Then when Buff decided he wanted to actually play some D, Toby contributed at both ends of the rink and helped Buff with zone exits.

He was Buffs Demelo/ Samberg, but with offensive prowess.

I think he's actually a bit underrated here, whether that be advanced stats, size or partner bias coming into play.
And he had a really long stick!

Arniel tonight, after Stanley took 3 minors and was benched in the 3rd because he couldn't be trusted...

"Stanley's a big body and we need him in the top 6. He won't get better in the press box."

Heinola is cooked. No chance he's going to get a shot at an NHL career with the Jets.
That’s very sad to think this.
 

surixon

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Jul 12, 2003
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Winnipeg
Arniel tonight, after Stanley took 3 minors and was benched in the 3rd because he couldn't be trusted...

"Stanley's a big body and we need him in the top 6. He won't get better in the press box."

Heinola is cooked. No chance he's going to get a shot at an NHL career with the Jets.

This org just can't admit they are wrong about this player. He's had years to show he's an everyday dmen. I mean all he has going for is his size.

At some point you need to try other options. I also feel for Ville as he's likely waiting for another injury to get back in.

Nice logic by coach, that applies to Ville as well.
 
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snowkiddin

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This org just can't admit they are wrong about this player. He's had years to show he's an everyday dmen. I mean all he has going for is his size.

At some point you need to try other options. I also feel for Ville as he's likely waiting for another injury to get back in.

Nice logic by coach, that applies to Ville as well.
Ville is a big body? ;)
 

JetsFan815

Replacement Level Poster
Jan 16, 2012
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Arniel tonight, after Stanley took 3 minors and was benched in the 3rd because he couldn't be trusted...

"Stanley's a big body and we need him in the top 6. He won't get better in the press box."

Heinola is cooked. No chance he's going to get a shot at an NHL career with the Jets.

I have a cousin, 6'5 320 lbs+. He's a big body who won't get better sitting in the pressbox. Whom do I contact in the Jets organization to get him in as a top-6 d-man?

You would have thought the Kovacevic and Chisholm experiences would have taught this organization something. Doesn't seem to be the case so far.
 

AlaskaJet

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Sep 29, 2017
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True North puts great value in its personal relationships with its players. All good for draft and (often) develop. It’s a great marriage. But when injuries reveal lines or pairings that don’t work, the blender needs to come out, if only to give the up and comers a chance to show what they bring.
Guys coming off injuries shouldn’t be slotted back in full-time IMHO. That way the rust comes off carefully and you get to see what chemistry new and different combinations bring. It’s a bit hard to imagine that Bones would have said what Arniel did after benching a player..even if a voice from above forced his hand.
Makes you wonder..
Hoping for the best, expecting something else..
Still, I’m no coach and this team has shown amazing things..
Go Jets!
 

Cnile

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Arniel tonight, after Stanley took 3 minors and was benched in the 3rd because he couldn't be trusted...

"Stanley's a big body and we need him in the top 6. He won't get better in the press box."

Heinola is cooked. No chance he's going to get a shot at an NHL career with the Jets.
It’s been apparent since he was drafted he was going to play no matter what.
If we are wanting to playing fast, and counting on the good first pass and looking to capitalize on our opponents turnovers in the NZ, where exactly does Stanley slot in because I really don’t see anything other than the odd decent sequence of physicality ( Sawyerism )
It boggles the mind
 

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