Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm trying to look ahead here -
I don't see much value in rehashing the waiver guys as a argument to trash Stan.
My post was about him as a player right now, what he may have accomplished in the last year or so, and what he might become if the org continues to support him in his development.

There has been SOME improvement, but not much. I don't think he plays regularly on any good team. He probably could play regularly on several bad teams.

 

[WolfHouse]

I’d love to see the analytics that say his play falls off the more games he plays….

Garret just posted it not hard to find

 

[Buffdog]

I’d love to see the analytics that say his play falls off the more games he plays….

I think is has more to do with which team he plays against vs how many games he plays

He's fine vs a team like Minnesota but he was exposed against the Avs and their speed/quickness due to his lack of footspeed and ability to move laterally

Lots of people seem to be forgetting that he had a decent run of games last season where he looked like an OK bottom pairing guy

 

[LowLefty]

The fancy stats and models all point to the fact that he is what he is - a fringe third pairing guy who's play falls off the more games he appears in... like I said we all hope he gets better and wanted to 'see' that last year but analytics just say he's the same player he always has been. Just don't see what's gained by blocking more prospects while waiting for an evolution that has the odds massive stacked against it.

He didn't get a ton of ice time over the last couple of yrs - and has had a couple of significant injuries that were part of that.
I look forward to seeing him settle into a 3rd pair role and continue to improve - I'm less concerned about the "prospects" he has blocked.
We're talking about 3rd pair talent here - Stan against the rest of them that are all borderline. The potential payoff on a big Dman is worth it IMO - and the fact that what has been so called "blocked" isn't worth the debate.

 

[LowLefty]

There has been SOME improvement, but not much. I don't think he plays regularly on any good team. He probably could play regularly on several bad teams.

Maybe he needs to play regularly in order to sort that out - and the Jets are probably going to give him more opportunity.
Hopefully he stays healthy and plays well.

 

[voyageur]

I agree on the Stan comments - not a lot of love around here but there has been improvement.
Just my opinion, but I feel he has been asked to do certain things out there that might have impacted his performance.

He can find himself out of position at times - and from what I see, it's usually because he is trying to make a hit on a player that is not necessarily the target. I think the org is asking him to be physical and he has over reacted. He will not settle in if he is under the assumption that he is out there to lay guys out as a priority - they need to be careful how they develop him and let him grow into the D role rather than head hunting.

He's not the quickest or most agile - but he has a huge reach that makes up for some of that and he should be learning to gap and control attackers on entry - and we saw more of that LY. But if he is chasing guys around looking for the big hit, he will be a trouble - he can't get back into plays as quickly as the smaller guys and needs to understand that (and so do those that are working with him).
Sounds like the org is sticking with him - and I don't think that is a bad thing - but they need to support his development and not over focus on physical.

I wonder what the impact of Chynoweth will be...This will be his 3rd d coach in 4 years. Each coach sees things differently.

I've really come to like Stanley. A lot of people think that other guys should have got the shot, but I am quite sure Chisholm was happy to be waived rather than sit in the PB. I wouldn't be surprised if he asked to be traded, and there were no offers..Stan took the demotion like a man, and a lot of guys don't, they ask to go where they can play, in their short careers, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

I agree that he can be inefficient in his movement, but even Chara for all his talent was a guy who looked like a pylon sometimes, when those skilled guys dangled him...The team needs Stan to have an edge with Dillon gone...Mean enough to hurt guys like Kaprizov, in rough and tumble games. Mean enough to finish these softer guys, so they stick to the perimeter. If he can continue to make good passes, and get some of those heavy shots on net, I think there's a chance he improves on his +17 career with the Jets.

Since drafting him the Jets have moved towards the mobile d-men, and that's a good thing I think, because skating is fundamental now for good defense...The big men, shot blockers, penalty killers, they tend to get recycled around the league at a certain point, and they aren't the hardest to find...When you get the best of both worlds, fast and physical, that's an element just about every team wants. But those guys don't grow on trees...

 

[WolfHouse]

I wonder what the impact of Chynoweth will be...This will be his 3rd d coach in 4 years. Each coach sees things differently.

I've really come to like Stanley. A lot of people think that other guys should have got the shot, but I am quite sure Chisholm was happy to be waived rather than sit in the PB. I wouldn't be surprised if he asked to be traded, and there were no offers..Stan took the demotion like a man, and a lot of guys don't, they ask to go where they can play, in their short careers, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

I agree that he can be inefficient in his movement, but even Chara for all his talent was a guy who looked like a pylon sometimes, when those skilled guys dangled him...The team needs Stan to have an edge with Dillon gone...Mean enough to hurt guys like Kaprizov, in rough and tumble games. Mean enough to finish these softer guys, so they stick to the perimeter. If he can continue to make good passes, and get some of those heavy shots on net, I think there's a chance he improves on his +17 career with the Jets.

Since drafting him the Jets have moved towards the mobile d-men, and that's a good thing I think, because skating is fundamental now for good defense...The big men, shot blockers, penalty killers, they tend to get recycled around the league at a certain point, and they aren't the hardest to find...When you get the best of both worlds, fast and physical, that's an element just about every team wants. But those guys don't grow on trees...

He asked for a trade before last season... and chara never looked like a nylon until he was in his mid 30s

 

[voyageur]

He asked for a trade before last season... and chara never looked like a nylon until he was in his mid 30s

Not publicly, it was speculated...when he was interviewed he declined to comment. He is on the record as saying he'd like to play his whole career here, which is rare for anyone to say about Winnipeg.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Maybe he needs to play regularly in order to sort that out - and the Jets are probably going to give him more opportunity.
Hopefully he stays healthy and plays well.

He's had plenty of opportunity.

I hope Heinola stays healthy and plays well.

 

[surixon]

I expect Stanley and Ville will be competing all year for that last d spot.

At 26 I don't really expect much more from Logan then what we've seen to date. He's likely a solid enough number 6 that can provide some snarl against bigger and slower teams.

Hopefully Ville can come in and provide to us what Schmidt did on our bottom pairing whish is good puck movement and secondary offense. They likely need that if they plan on matching the third pairing with line 2.

 

[LowLefty]

He's had plenty of opportunity.

I hope Heinola stays healthy and plays well.

I guess it comes down to the point I was trying to make -
He has shown improvement in areas of his game - is it enough to land a spot or will they continue to cycle these guys?
IMO, a player needs to settle into a role before we get the most from them - Stan, Ville or otherwise.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I guess it comes down to the point I was trying to make -
He has shown improvement in areas of his game - is it enough to land a spot or will they continue to cycle these guys?
IMO, a player needs to settle into a role before we get the most from them - Stan, Ville or otherwise.

Fair enough - but I think Stan has had that opportunity. I'm not denying that he has improved. He is fine as a #7, or at least OK. But he should not be a regular unless we are dropping down out of the PO.

 

[LowLefty]

Fair enough - but I think Stan has had that opportunity. I'm not denying that he has improved. He is fine as a #7, or at least OK. But he should not be a regular unless we are dropping down out of the PO.

He could be a regular if he continues to improve -

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

He could be a regular if he continues to improve -

Yes, if he improves quite a bit. I think that is a pretty big if.

I don't think it is something that can come with more experience. His biggest problem is foot speed. Maybe he can improve on that but he is already at an age that is past his physical peak.

 

[LowLefty]

Yes, if he improves quite a bit. I think that is a pretty big if.

I don't think it is something that can come with more experience. His biggest problem is foot speed. Maybe he can improve on that but he is already at an age that is past his physical peak.

I hear the "lack of footspeed" argument a lot - does that mean all you need is quick feet to be an effective defender?
All these guys have weaknesses - and strengths - Stan is a big, physical dman with a hard shot, good outlets, and a wingspan that covers for a lot of what he lacks in speed. He also stands up for team mates and will work the grind segment of the game that makes up for a large pce of what defenders are asked to do.
He's not perfect - he has weaknesses - show me a #6 dman that doesn't.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I hear the "lack of footspeed" argument a lot - does that mean all you need is quick feet to be an effective defender?
All these guys have weaknesses - and strengths - Stan is a big, physical dman with a hard shot, good outlets, and a wingspan that covers for a lot of what he lacks in speed. He also stands up for team mates and will work the grind segment of the game that makes up for a large pce of what defenders are asked to do.
He's not perfect - he has weaknesses - show me a #6 dman that doesn't.

No, it doesn't mean that that is all you need - but all need it. Not all need a lot of it. Stan just has too little, IMO.

Sure, credit where it is due. He does some things well enough. He even learned to fight a bit. He is a decent PK'er, shot blocker. But he gets beaten by faster players all too often, despite his wingspan.

I don't hate Stan. It is nothing personal. But I think we need better. I don't mind him in the PB, getting in games once in a while.

 

[surixon]

I hear the "lack of footspeed" argument a lot - does that mean all you need is quick feet to be an effective defender?
All these guys have weaknesses - and strengths - Stan is a big, physical dman with a hard shot, good outlets, and a wingspan that covers for a lot of what he lacks in speed. He also stands up for team mates and will work the grind segment of the game that makes up for a large pce of what defenders are asked to do.
He's not perfect - he has weaknesses - show me a #6 dman that doesn't.

You can overcome it with other attributes. The best big dmen that lacked footspeed like Chara and Weber learned to read the play at a high level. That and they were mean and had offense.

Stanley's big issue outside the last 10 games or so was that he didn't play mean enough and he wasn't disciplined enough in his positioning. He ran around a lot.

If he can replicate the final 10 games I think we may have a useful bottom pairing guy, but he has to bring that snarl and discipline far more consistently.

 

[LowLefty]

You can overcome it with other attributes. The best big dmen that lacked footspeed like Chara and Weber learned to read the play at a high level. That and they were mean and had offense.

Stanley's big issue outside the last 10 games or so was that he didn't play mean enough and he wasn't disciplined enough in his positioning. He ran around a lot.

If he can replicate the final 10 games I think we may have a useful bottom pairing guy, but he has to bring that snarl and discipline far more consistently.

I'd agree with this -
My guess is that Stan has been lead around by his nose ring - he's been asked to do certain things when he plays, and most of the ask is around physical play. Problem with that is he needs to be developed to play defense - not just hunt heads. I'm not saying the physical is not needed - that should be a big part of what he brings - but they need to give him a little rope and let him play. He's shown flashes of offense from time to time and I was surprised they didn't bench him. But you can see there is more there - but it gets lost when he is asked to focus on running guys over.
Again, we're talking about #6 here - we need to be careful how we evaluate or compare - he won't dazzle you but there might be enough to provide some skill to go along with the weight this blueline desperately needs.

I think the org is going to continue to work with him - it's obvious they want that size in the lineup - but he'll need to be not only big, but good enough.
It'll come down to "how long will this take"? IMO, it will continue to be slow - but there is progress there (as you noted in the last 10 or so games).

 

[LowLefty]

No, it doesn't mean that that is all you need - but all need it. Not all need a lot of it. Stan just has too little, IMO.

Sure, credit where it is due. He does some things well enough. He even learned to fight a bit. He is a decent PK'er, shot blocker. But he gets beaten by faster players all too often, despite his wingspan.

I don't hate Stan. It is nothing personal. But I think we need better. I don't mind him in the PB, getting in games once in a while.

I was being a bit of a smart ass - sorry about that.
I agree that we need better - and I hope he gets better.
As for our blue line getting beat, it happens to a few of the guys making much more - it is what it is.
But he is getting beat a lot less than he was - I look at that as progress.
I want him in the lineup - there are many that don't - and that's OK

 

[surixon]

I'd agree with this -
My guess is that Stan has been lead around by his nose ring - he's been asked to do certain things when he plays, and most of the ask is around physical play. Problem with that is he needs to be developed to play defense - not just hunt heads. I'm not saying the physical is not needed - that should be a big part of what he brings - but they need to give him a little rope and let him play. He's shown flashes of offense from time to time and I was surprised they didn't bench him. But you can see there is more there - but it gets lost when he is asked to focus on running guys over.
Again, we're talking about #6 here - we need to be careful how we evaluate or compare - he won't dazzle you but there might be enough to provide some skill to go along with the weight this blueline desperately needs.

I think the org is going to continue to work with him - it's obvious they want that size in the lineup - but he'll need to be not only big, but good enough.
It'll come down to "how long will this take"? IMO, it will continue to be slow - but there is progress there (as you noted in the last 10 or so games).

The issue is he's running out of runway. It's been far too slow with him. He's 26 now and likely Half done his pro career.

He's lucky he's with an org that has been as stubborn as they are. Most would have given up on him a long time ago. He's really got show something more next year or yet another dmen in the system in Ville will leapfrog him.

 

[Buffdog]

I hear the "lack of footspeed" argument a lot - does that mean all you need is quick feet to be an effective defender?
All these guys have weaknesses - and strengths - Stan is a big, physical dman with a hard shot, good outlets, and a wingspan that covers for a lot of what he lacks in speed. He also stands up for team mates and will work the grind segment of the game that makes up for a large pce of what defenders are asked to do.
He's not perfect - he has weaknesses - show me a #6 dman that doesn't.

Gap control, angles and body position negate lack of footspeed. If you can force an attacker to a certain spot on the ice, you don't have to react to them changing directions. They'll go to the only place that you let them

 

[WolfHouse]

Gap control, angles and body position negate lack of footspeed. If you can force an attacker to a certain spot on the ice, you don't have to react to them changing directions. They'll go to the only place that you let them

But it's by degrees... and you do need foot speed for gap control - especially in today's NHL. Dillon can get away with being a bit slower - Stan can't.

 

[sipowicz]

I expect Stanley and Ville will be competing all year for that last d spot.

At 26 I don't really expect much more from Logan then what we've seen to date. He's likely a solid enough number 6 that can provide some snarl against bigger and slower teams.

Hopefully Ville can come in and provide to us what Schmidt did on our bottom pairing whish is good puck movement and secondary offense. They likely need that if they plan on matching the third pairing with line 2.

Soon to be 24 years old Tiny Heiny has yet to prove he can be an NHL player never mind regular and some of the guys here already have him pencilled in on the top 4!

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

3rd pairing looked good versus the oil. Miller and Fleury got some size!

Top pair was solid

2nd pair has Samberg. Choice!!!

 

[voyageur]

3rd pairing looked good versus the oil. Miller and Fleury got some size!

Top pair was solid

2nd pair has Samberg. Choice!!!

I actually thought Miller had kind of rough game. Mc David torched him, he's not the only one to have that happen to him, and Fleury bailed him out on the back door...There were a couple more plays from Miller that were off. Like that Fleury led in shot blocks for much of the game , even after taking one in the bean. That's a Dillon quality there. I think you have to give those 2 defensemen some time to adapt to playing together...The other pairings have some experience. Pionk's assist on the 2rd goal was one of the nicer set plays in the game. But he and Samberg had some troubles too moving the puck, d to d, at times, and Pionk got bailed out a couple of times by his goalie.