Player Discussion: Winnipeg Jets Defense

[LowLefty]

Instead, we are going to rely on Beaulieu flopping around, making bad reads, not moving the puck well, etc. The Jets don't have a D good enough for a contender. At the very least, it's hard to imagine the young D won't outperform at least Beaulieu, and perhaps Poolman. What's the downside to playing them this year to at least assess them and see if they are answers long term? The Jets literally have nothing to lose in replacing Beaulieu with a young player, and it could be a very valuable decision.

They may still get into the lineup this year - one or both of them.
But I agree that time spent learning more of the pro game makes absolute sense.

I also get the fan impatience in waiting for our players to develop to the point where they can come in and contribute without throwing them into an environment where they are expected to be the saviors - it's unrealistic and potentially damaging.

This debate will continue until they are in the line up - I see both sides of it but agree that we need to wait

 

[rubikscube]

People are blaming Helle for a bounce off the stanchion that goes directly into the slot.

Sounds about right. This place sometimes, man.

 

[bustamente]

Looks like the Jets have made a decision that Heinola and Samberg will play with the Moose this year no matter how bad the D plays, next year they will be given every chance to make the team and contribute, not what I would of done as in all probability 3 of the D that played last night will not be here next year

 

[bennylundholm]

I think that theres a lot of downside (part of which I've emoted many times with regards to handling prospects correctly, in a way that builds their confidence and doesn't give them too much too soon).
As for the downside for the team this year outside of that, despite our obvious shortcomings in our game, we are still second in the North and within reach of the Maple Leafs with games in hand. This, like last year, is probably one of the Jets best chances to potentially win a cup (yes even with our shortcomings). Experimentation with half a shortened season isn't really logical.
I'm all for inserting Stanley and giving him a real shot as he showed some promise this year and we need to see if he's going to be an everyday NHL player.

Very little downside. Tremendous upside playing Samberg, Heinola and Stanley over BooBoo.
These guys aren't 18. They have experience. Granted, Heinola is 19 I believe, but of the 3 I believe he is most capable of performing well.

 

[voyageur]

I think you have a significant amount to 'lose' by playing Samberg and Heinola. Teams that rush developing players to fill big club needs fail.

However, playing Stanley, and to a lesser extent Niku should definitely be the play for the team right now. However, it doesn't really address this teams actual need, which is at least one top pair defenseman. How do we get that?

You could promote De Melo up with Morrissey. Samberg up with Pionk, if you thought Samberg was ready, and have Forbort with Poolman as a limited pairing. Beaulieu as 7, Niku as 8. Stanley can stay on the taxi squad, until needed. Switch Samberg and Forbort depending on play.

What scares me is the Jets are going to go for a guy like Savard, at the expense of Poolman, and our defense will become even slower. Which is an attacking point for any team.
As much as Beaulieu was pretty bad at times, though when I started watching the 2nd period he was making some pretty good plays, there's something to be said about the fact that for all their talent Connor-Dubois-Ehlers are playing in the wrong end a lot and not able to defend like a top line should.

And that might be the growing pains of playing #13 up the middle.

 

[scelaton]

I don't think the aftermath of an isolated blowout loss is the time to change course for a team that sits 7th in the league in P%.

It's obvious that the plan is to continue to mature Heinola and Samberg in the AHL and insert them both into the lineup some time in the second half of the season. It may be an ELC decision for Heinola, but Samberg will stay or leave based on his own merits. The Jets are giving him the best chance to succeed by not rushing the process.

 

[Romang67]

I don't think the aftermath of an isolated blowout loss is the time to change course for a team that sits 7th in the league in P%.

It's obvious that the plan is to continue to mature Heinola and Samberg in the AHL and insert them both into the lineup some time in the second half of the season. It may be an ELC decision for Heinola, but Samberg will stay or leave based on his own merits. The Jets are giving him the best chance to succeed by not rushing the process.

Is it? I'm willing to wager that the reason why Heinola played 1 game and then collected dust ("we don't want young players to sit in the press box"), Stanley hasn't been reinserted into the lineup, and Samberg hasn't touched NHL ice is because Maurice believes he's icing the best defense he has available right now.

I appreciate the optimism, but I dont think Maurice is after developing our young players. I think he makes bad lineup decisions like Beaulieu on the first pairing because he believes in them.

 

[Adam da bomb]

People are blaming Helle for a bounce off the stanchion that goes directly into the slot.

Sounds about right. This place sometimes, man.

No ppl are blaming helly for leaving net in 1st place instead of just letting mtl have it on the other side.

 

[Adam da bomb]

You could promote De Melo up with Morrissey. Samberg up with Pionk, if you thought Samberg was ready, and have Forbort with Poolman as a limited pairing. Beaulieu as 7, Niku as 8. Stanley can stay on the taxi squad, until needed. Switch Samberg and Forbort depending on play.

What scares me is the Jets are going to go for a guy like Savard, at the expense of Poolman, and our defense will become even slower. Which is an attacking point for any team.
As much as Beaulieu was pretty bad at times, though when I started watching the 2nd period he was making some pretty good plays, there's something to be said about the fact that for all their talent Connor-Dubois-Ehlers are playing in the wrong end a lot and not able to defend like a top line should.

And that might be the growing pains of playing #13 up the middle.

You can also replace poolman with Heinola and go forbert Heinola as I imagine Pionk and Heinola as similar game.

 

[scelaton]

Is it? I'm willing to wager that the reason why Heinola played 1 game and then collected dust ("we don't want young players to sit in the press box"), Stanley hasn't been reinserted into the lineup, and Samberg hasn't touched NHL ice is because Maurice believes he's icing the best defense he has available right now.

I appreciate the optimism, but I dont think Maurice is after developing our young players. I think he makes bad lineup decisions like Beaulieu on the first pairing because he believes in them.

OK, happy to have a friendly wager. Bragging rights is worth a lot around here, unless you have a better idea.

My bet is that Heinola gets his 7 games minimum and that Samberg is given a decent opportunity in the 2nd half of the season to play and stay, however you want to translate that.

Mau clearly makes some bullheaded decisions--Beaulieu on the first pairing being the most obvious--but he has very few options on D that are slam-dunks. Stanley needs to get back in and Niku has earned himself another chance, but neither is going to be transformational.

 

[Romang67]

OK, happy to have a friendly wager. Bragging rights is worth a lot around here, unless you have a better idea.

My bet is that Heinola gets his 7 games minimum and that Samberg is given a decent opportunity in the 2nd half of the season to play and stay, however you want to translate that.

Mau clearly makes some bullheaded decisions--Beaulieu on the first pairing being the most obvious--but he has very few options on D that are slam-dunks. Stanley needs to get back in and Niku has earned himself another chance, but neither is going to be transformational.

Lets say 7 for both of them for bragging rights?

 

[Whileee]

I think the Jets should do this...

44-2
24-4

Samberg/Heinola- Poolman

They could cycle Samberg, Poolman and Heinola in some sort of a rotation if Maurice wants to match styles (e.g. Samberg vs. heavier teams and Heinola vs. quicker teams).

 

[Adam da bomb]

I like poolman as a bottom pairing D. Anything higher u are asking for trouble doesn’t mean he’s bad just is what he is.

 

[jokesondee]

Too many bottom paring guys being asked to play above their heads. Simple as that.

 

[bogostick]

Is it just me, I thought poolman was great in the Calgary series. I haven't been able to tune into many games, is he not moving the puck out like a vintage bogo, while having good coverage

 

[WolfHouse]

Is it just me, I thought poolman was great in the Calgary series. I haven't been able to tune into many games, is he not moving the puck out like a vintage bogo, while having good coverage

Poolman had a rough game last night but he's been pretty decent for the most part... not quite first pairing talent though

 

[WpgSteve]

I'm good with Samberg and Heinola in the AHL this year.

I'd like to see them rotate Beaulieu, Stanley and Niku (to a lesser extent) through the third pair depending on schedule, performance, etc. If a couple of them click, we'd have options to get Demelo back up with Morrisey. Poolman could rotate in and out with the others.

I don't think we see any changes unless injuries or the team loses 2 or 3 in a row.

 

[voyageur]

You can also replace poolman with Heinola and go forbert Heinola as I imagine Pionk and Heinola as similar game.

You could but it seems as though there isn't a single LHD who has looked entirely comfortable on his offside. I am not sure if Heinola is playing his offside on the Moose, but it looks as though Samberg has moved back to his natural side there, because he was having troubles too. Which makes me believe we are going to look for external solutions to replace a role that hasn't been replaced since we lost all our RD in one offseason. With Buff's hole the biggest one to fill. I think if you can get one of Samberg or Heinola into the top 4, and move De Melo up, there's a semblance of something. Conversely though there is the risk of playing too small with Morrissey, De Melo, Heinola and Pionk as your top 4, which would encourage teams to attack this weakness, by getting bodies to the net. I don't really know the solution, if somebody could step up and play solid on their offside, it would make the internal solution easier.

 

[Guffman]

I know there is a loyal following to what Garret posts, and I respect that. I'm not buying it though. Not fully. And I get quite irritated when people think they are smarter because they have mathematized the game into a science, without having a good read for what is going on on the ice. You certainly can't explain chemistry in numbers.

Garret was gushing over Petan and Dano. Sorry, that was ridiculous.

I remember the era when people would live and die on Corsi. Again, it was an incredibly ridiculous foundation to base wide sweeping conclusions on. What did Guffman say at the time? I like stats, even so-called advanced stats, but they are still at a primitive level at tracking what is going on on the ice and shouldn’t be relied on so heavily.

We have people spouting their stats and graphs, pretending that their opinions are well validated and often, it turns out to be pretty garbo in hindsight.

 

[Guffman]

Is it? I'm willing to wager that the reason why Heinola played 1 game and then collected dust ("we don't want young players to sit in the press box"), Stanley hasn't been reinserted into the lineup, and Samberg hasn't touched NHL ice is because Maurice believes he's icing the best defense he has available right now.

I appreciate the optimism, but I dont think Maurice is after developing our young players. I think he makes bad lineup decisions like Beaulieu on the first pairing because he believes in them.

Maurice has done a tremendous job developing young players. So many Jets superstars are a testament to that.

Let’s remember that this was a season that started in 2021. No training camp, which hurts young players trying to land in the line-up. I’m OK having Heinola and Samberg playing big minutes in the AHL. It’s not like the regular season right now is critical... we having been winning games, after all.

This unit may look differently as the month progresses. I do think it’s time that Beaulieu should be pulled.

 

[DRC]

Really hoping Beaulieu is place holding for the grind of this condensed regular season. We're treading water so far and it's giving Pascal time to coach and develop 2 key defensemen for our future. I know it's ugly but I can understand it from that perspective. Chevy clearly sees and knows our defense is a mess. Maurice as well. I'm going to have patience and wait and see what they do to address it in the second half of the season. And if they don't address it, or address it poorly, then I'll say they have horseshit for brains

 

[voyageur]

Really hoping Beaulieu is place holding for the grind of this condensed regular season. We're treading water so far and it's giving Pascal time to coach and develop 2 key defensemen for our future. I know it's ugly but I can understand it from that perspective. Chevy clearly sees and knows our defense is a mess. Maurice as well. I'm going to have patience and wait and see what they do to address it in the second half of the season. And if they don't address it, or address it poorly, then I'll say they have horseshit for brains

I wouldn't say our defense is a mess, looking at our record. I'd say that there are players being asked to do more than they are capable of, on a consistent basis. Also the way we play with defensemen backing out of the zone, and covering the neutral zone, is a pretty drastic change from the early Maurice years, where defensemen aggressively pinched, and forwards took over the defensive responsibility positionally. A lot more of our offense is generated by our forward lines, without a lot of defensive support. While the forwards are asked to be more responsible defensively. It takes a lot of pressure off the defense. Limiting odd man rushes. What's concerning is how we can get hemmed in defensively, and some of that is forward support, since we rarely shoot a player into the neutral zone defensively, like we saw Montreal doing, and what other teams will do to stretch the ice. When we are on, we break seams easy, with a series of passes, and neutral zone speed, when we are off, it can look pretty ugly. I'd say so far this year, 4 games to the midway point, we've had maybe 4 stinker games. So on average, a pretty decent output.

I think the problem is we have a lot of the same. There's not a wide degree of difference in the games of Beaulieu, Stanley, and Samberg. Samberg is probably the best skater out of them, but he's still going to have to adapt to the speed of the NHL game, which isn't like college or the A. Having success against Logan Shaw types isn't like trying to stop Connor Mc David at full speed, or trying to have the right gaps to stop Austen Matthews. I like the patience management is showing.

Heinola and Niku represent many of the same elements, an offensive flair, and good passes. Defending is where both need to grow. And they are all LHD, which makes them harder to fit in the lineup. Derek Forbort is an important enough player, especially at the special teams level, that his roster spot is safe. We know Morrissey's is safe.

Poolman is a good combination of size and speed that only Samberg could potentially replace internally, and Poolman has done well against some good competition, like Mc Jesus. I don't think Gawanke has the defending skills to be a replacement. So that right side is still the biggest issue. Beaulieu's inconsistency being probably the next biggest problem.

 

[voyageur]

Garret was gushing over Petan and Dano. Sorry, that was ridiculous.

I remember the era when people would live and die on Corsi. Again, it was an incredibly ridiculous foundation to base wide sweeping conclusions on. What did Guffman say at the time? I like stats, even so-called advanced stats, but they are still at a primitive level at tracking what is going on on the ice and shouldn’t be relied on so heavily.

We have people spouting their stats and graphs, pretending that their opinions are well validated and often, it turns out to be pretty garbo in hindsight.

The person who makes no mistakes makes nothing at all, someone said. Garret is no different than the rest of us, and shows a pretty good hockey intellect. I like when the statistical discussion can blend with the visual, because it provides you with a better picture, in my opinion.

 

[GumbyCan2]

People are blaming Helle for a bounce off the stanchion that goes directly into the slot.

Sounds about right. This place sometimes, man.

Those ones are on the "home-team" arena staff. GM's should file complaints and coach should have at least stopped the play for a while to "investigate" the crooked glass/stanchion. Take the "focus off the game" for a few minutes, no?

 

[jetsforever]

Garret was gushing over Petan and Dano. Sorry, that was ridiculous.

I remember the era when people would live and die on Corsi. Again, it was an incredibly ridiculous foundation to base wide sweeping conclusions on. What did Guffman say at the time? I like stats, even so-called advanced stats, but they are still at a primitive level at tracking what is going on on the ice and shouldn’t be relied on so heavily.

We have people spouting their stats and graphs, pretending that their opinions are well validated and often, it turns out to be pretty garbo in hindsight.

It wasn't that ridiculous to like prospects that a) totally dominated the WHL and world juniors, and b) put up 21 points in 35 games in his rookie NHL season.