Winnipeg Jets: 11,226 Attendance tonight, cause for concern? What's going on in the 'Peg?

[JeremyHronek]

Canadian teams that share the same economy are all doing great. Calgary has seemed to turn around their attendance woes and are now averaging above 17K. Edmonton, one of the worst teams in the league, has great attendance.

It has everything to do with the size of the market as well as the slow growth. Lack of corporate help and relying on the same customer base year-after-year is just not sustainable.

They will rebound at some point for sure. The hope is that it rebounds quickly.

Without getting into how Canada is divided into "have" and "have not" provinces, Manitoba's economy is NOTHING in comparison to BC, Alberta and Ontario's economy. Not even close. Manitoba will always struggle and if the team left they would always say that Winnipeg "deserves" a team.

 

[klefbombs shoulder]

South Florida has college football, NFL football, an NBA team , an NBA team, and Messi playing on the MLS team. We still pack the arena at 18000 plus. Franchise isn’t worth much if it isn’t supported.

South Florida also has 10 million people. Its franchise should be more valuable than the Jets. Manitoba has 1.5 million people.

 

[TS Quint]

Your point is valid that the only thing that really matters is the owner’s willingness and ability to absorb losses.

But it’s not a great look for Winnipeg if their argument is “exactly one person is keeping the team economically viable”. For the fans to abandon a third-place team that’s coming off 5/6 years in the playoffs, that seems to be giving the doubters a lot of fuel. What is this going to look like when they actually become a bad team? Is the plan for Thomson to just keep writing eight-figure checks to cover their losses?

What losses? I don’t think you read that comment very well.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What losses? I don’t think you read that comment very well.

The annual cash decreases that go along with losing millions in ticket revenue.

Everyone would rake in long-term revenue from massive investments in real estate and pro sports franchises, if they could. Very very few are well-capitalized enough to reap those long term rewards. In the case of the city of Winnipeg, it sounds like there’s only one guy and everything relies on him staying the course.

 

[joestevens29]

The annual cash decreases that go along with losing millions in ticket revenue.

Everyone would rake in long-term revenue from massive investments in real estate and pro sports franchises, if they could. Very very few are well-capitalized enough to reap those long term rewards. In the case of the city of Winnipeg, it sounds like there’s only one guy and everything relies on him staying the course.

You actually don’t understand the situation probably should leave

 

[Brookbank]

John Shannon is such a Bettman water carrying lackey. He never puts out signals that the league doesn't like. But he's Tweeting away about the alleged low attendance of Winnipeg just to get the media off the scent of the bad attendance of so many of the US markets.

 

[Headshot77]

Maybe Quebec and Winnipeg should share a franchise. Each city gets 20 home games and a neutral site game in Saskatoon for good measure.

I think that would genuinely not be a bad idea economically, but you'd probably have trouble with the PA on that one.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Canadian teams that share the same economy are all doing great. Calgary has seemed to turn around their attendance woes and are now averaging above 17K. Edmonton, one of the worst teams in the league, has great attendance.

It has everything to do with the size of the market as well as the slow growth. Lack of corporate help and relying on the same customer base year-after-year is just not sustainable.

They will rebound at some point for sure. The hope is that it rebounds quickly.

Calgary had crowds of 16,000 and 17,000 range in October and 16,000 and 17,000 range in November. Pretty much the same thing...which is fine. No really rebound.

2023–24 Calgary Flames season - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The underlying problems haven't changed. High housing prices and inflation (which has slowed a bit but not by that much), stagnating wages. A corporate season ticket base which makes up 15% of the total season ticket base. That's not going to suddenly change in the same season just because inflation on food dropped a tiny bit. Crowds aren't going to increase by any notable amount for the rest of season given these factors.

What matters is the off season....for the next 3 years...you know, like Chipman said in an interview not too long ago. I'm sure some here have seen it. He stated it would take 3 years to increase the season ticket base to a desirable number and the percentage of corporate accounts to a desirable percentage (45 - 55%) of the season ticket base. It's what? 9500 at this point? Increase the corporate base by 1000 per season and your rolling.

If the Jets were in a financial crisis as some here would suggest, do you think they would spend within a few million of the cap? Pretty unlikely right? Yet they are, but I suppose it provides some good fodder for people here who like to overdramatize things.

As for losses and Chipman and Thompson becoming tired of funding a money-loser...well what losses? Forbes had the Jets posting $22 million in operating income last year. That was calculated from the previous year I might add which was a COVID year with Canadian teams not playing to full capacity. Since then, a new larger tv contract is now in place, new corporate sponsorships, new local tv deal for the Jets which may not be reflected in that estimate. I also don't think these estimated revenues and operating incomes include additional revenue streams from real estate holdings (leases), and concerts and various acts at the arena.

NHL Team Values 2022: New York Rangers On Top At $2.2 Billion

Hockey team owners are scoring big, with the average NHL team value now at $1.03 billion, topping $1 billion for the first time and 19% more than a year ago.

www.forbes.com

So be prepared for crowds of 11 - 12,000 for the rest of the season even if the Jets are performing well this season. As I said, a small recent improvement in year-over-year food inflation each month and a slight cooling off of the real estate market is not going to suddenly get people running to the box office to purchase tickets nor will we see a serious uptick in corporate purchases... and a significant boost to attendance to 14,000 per game or higher. That is more likely to happen in the off season.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You actually don’t understand the situation probably should leave

So you’re saying there’s another potential owner in Winnipeg who could capitalize the Jets enough to keep them stable under current conditions?

I suspect your answer above is more head-in-sand than you’re willing to admit.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

Calgary had crowds of 16,000 and 17,000 range in October and 16,000 and 17,000 range in November. Pretty much the same thing...which is fine. No really rebound.

If the Jets were in a financial crisis as some here would suggest, do you think they would spend within a few million of the cap? Pretty unlikely right? Yet they are, but I suppose it provides some good fodder for people here who like to overdramatize things.

As for losses and Chipman and Thompson becoming tired of funding a money-loser...well what losses? Forbes had the Jets posting $22 million in operating income last year. That was calculated from the previous year I might add which was a COVID year with Canadian teams not playing to full capacity. Since then, a new larger tv contract is now in place, new corporate sponsorships, new local tv deal for the Jets which may not be reflected in that estimate. I also don't think these estimated revenues and operating incomes include additional revenue streams from real estate holdings (leases), and concerts and various acts at the arena.

For Calgary, I just know that there was a thread about their attendance being down and tickets being available for cheap. I just checked the attendance when I was referencing the Canadian markets which have this worse economy than everyone else and saw they're at a strong 17K. Point stands...all the other Canadian markets appear to have good attendance.

For Chipman and team, can't imagine they're in a "financial crisis". However, you can talk about team values and how rich the owners are all day. The fact stands that Chipman said in the press: “As we enter another post-season … we thought this was an opportune time to humbly remind the community that we need your support,”. Owners don't do that unless there are problems. Since then, he's done interviews to try to put out the fires while the team has trouble getting 12K in the building. So no...the Jets aren't moving, but there are concerning issues.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

John Shannon is such a Bettman water carrying lackey. He never puts out signals that the league doesn't like. But he's Tweeting away about the alleged low attendance of Winnipeg just to get the media off the scent of the bad attendance of so many of the US markets.

oh please cry me a river canadians are always talking all sorts of shit everywhere about southern teams , now a small village in canada can't fill up a barn and the fans are crying for poverty and homelessness , stop it.

 

[PeteWorrell]

The Jets are not relocating when there is a team in the league that is unable to play in a proper venue.

 

[TS Quint]

The annual cash decreases that go along with losing millions in ticket revenue.

Everyone would rake in long-term revenue from massive investments in real estate and pro sports franchises, if they could. Very very few are well-capitalized enough to reap those long term rewards. In the case of the city of Winnipeg, it sounds like there’s only one guy and everything relies on him staying the course.

So, no losses.

 

[PaulD]

You actually don’t understand the situation probably should leave

lol

 

[tarheelhockey]

So, no losses.

That’s like saying you’re not losing money when you take a pay cut.

 

[WaitingForThatCab]

South Florida also has 10 million people. Its franchise should be more valuable than the Jets. Manitoba has 1.5 million people.

Even with the completely insane immigration we've had in the last 3 years, South Florida isn't even close to 10 million people. Dade and Broward combined will get you a little over 4m. Palm Beach and all the rest of the outlying areas that can draw fans combined might bring in like maybe another 2m tops.

Still a lot more than Manitoba, but let's stay grounded in reality here.


BTW, I think talk of relocating Winnipeg is ridiculous. Attendance league-wide is going to suffer badly under, uh, current economic conditions at some point.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Stale ass product.

I went to a game a week or so ago. The crowd is alright.

It’s the same team every year with a GM that refuses to rebuild, or properly make trades with draft capital to help out a core that’s slowly aging out.

Winnipeg is incredibly content being a middle of the pack team, and it’s a boring product as a result.

 

[Weezeric]

Stale ass product.

I went to a game a week or so ago. The crowd is alright.

It’s the same team every year with a GM that refuses to rebuild, or properly make trades with draft capital to help out a core that’s slowly aging out.

Winnipeg is incredibly content being a middle of the pack team, and it’s a boring product as a result.

You think being really bad for 5-10 years would help?

 

[TS Quint]

That’s like saying you’re not losing money when you take a pay cut.

What's your point? They aren't losing money. They are making slightly less in the grand scheme of things.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

For Calgary, I just know that there was a thread about their attendance being down and tickets being available for cheap. I just checked the attendance when I was referencing the Canadian markets which have this worse economy than everyone else and saw they're at a strong 17K. Point stands...all the other Canadian markets appear to have good attendance.

For Chipman and team, can't imagine they're in a "financial crisis". However, you can talk about team values and how rich the owners are all day. The fact stands that Chipman said in the press: “As we enter another post-season … we thought this was an opportune time to humbly remind the community that we need your support,”. Owners don't do that unless there are problems. Since then, he's done interviews to try to put out the fires while the team has trouble getting 12K in the building. So no...the Jets aren't moving, but there are concerning issues.

If you look at the post I pasted from Wiki and look at the Flames attendance you will see on a per game basis it has been consistently in the 16000s and 17000s on a per game basis in both October and November. Their attendance was fine in October and it is fine in November. It didn't suddenly become good in November. Also, while their attendance is good it's over 2,000 less than what they had a few short years ago when sellouts were the norm. Even a community with a strong corporate presence like Calgary will suffer during these inflationary times. If they suffer, a city like Winnipeg will certainly suffer as well.

I am aware of those comments by Chipman and I realize there are problems. I also realize those problems take some time to be rectified and won't be resolved the same year he stated the Jets need the community's support. He said it would take 3 years in a recent interview...and that makes sense given that additional support (3,000 more season tickets) will have to come almost exclusively from the corporate community. We won't see a significant uptake in attendance for the majority of Jets regular season games this year. The work to achieve a decent bump in attendance will have to take place in the off season. Hopefully Chipman can increase the season ticket base an additional 1000 or so for 2024-25 as part of the 3-year plan.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

So you’re saying there’s another potential owner in Winnipeg who could capitalize the Jets enough to keep them stable under current conditions?

I suspect your answer above is more head-in-sand than you’re willing to admit.

Maybe Peter Nygaard can invest some of his hundreds of millions on his home town team to take some of the pressure off Chipman. Oh wait...scratch that.

 

[Voight]

Calgary had crowds of 16,000 and 17,000 range in October and 16,000 and 17,000 range in November. Pretty much the same thing...which is fine. No really rebound.

2023–24 Calgary Flames season - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The underlying problems haven't changed. High housing prices and inflation (which has slowed a bit but not by that much), stagnating wages. A corporate season ticket base which makes up 15% of the total season ticket base. That's not going to suddenly change in the same season just because inflation on food dropped a tiny bit. Crowds aren't going to increase by any notable amount for the rest of season given these factors.

What matters is the off season....for the next 3 years...you know, like Chipman said in an interview not too long ago. I'm sure some here have seen it. He stated it would take 3 years to increase the season ticket base to a desirable number and the percentage of corporate accounts to a desirable percentage (45 - 55%) of the season ticket base. It's what? 9500 at this point? Increase the corporate base by 1000 per season and your rolling.

If the Jets were in a financial crisis as some here would suggest, do you think they would spend within a few million of the cap? Pretty unlikely right? Yet they are, but I suppose it provides some good fodder for people here who like to overdramatize things.

As for losses and Chipman and Thompson becoming tired of funding a money-loser...well what losses? Forbes had the Jets posting $22 million in operating income last year. That was calculated from the previous year I might add which was a COVID year with Canadian teams not playing to full capacity. Since then, a new larger tv contract is now in place, new corporate sponsorships, new local tv deal for the Jets which may not be reflected in that estimate. I also don't think these estimated revenues and operating incomes include additional revenue streams from real estate holdings (leases), and concerts and various acts at the arena.

NHL Team Values 2022: New York Rangers On Top At $2.2 Billion

Hockey team owners are scoring big, with the average NHL team value now at $1.03 billion, topping $1 billion for the first time and 19% more than a year ago.

www.forbes.com

So be prepared for crowds of 11 - 12,000 for the rest of the season even if the Jets are performing well this season. As I said, a small recent improvement in year-over-year food inflation each month and a slight cooling off of the real estate market is not going to suddenly get people running to the box office to purchase tickets nor will we see a serious uptick in corporate purchases... and a significant boost to attendance to 14,000 per game or higher. That is more likely to happen in the off season.

Seriously... I mean they just handed $120 million dollars to Scheifele & Hellebucyk.

 

[JianYang]

I get Winnipeg is the largest city in Manitoba, but there is like nothing else around there. Why they thought that city could sustain a Professional Hockey team is lost on me. Maybe I am missing something. I'm an ignorant American just looking at numbers after all. It's the smallest market of all the NHL teams by a large margin.

It was a perfect storm for Winnipeg to come back. Atlanta needed to move. Nobody else was stepping up to the plate with their ducks in order at the time except for Winnipeg who had very deep pocketed investor behind them.

It would be difficult to replicate those same conditions again, but this is what it took for Winnipeg to find their way back to the NHL.

 

[FlyerNutter]

You think being really bad for 5-10 years would help?

Cowardly response from anyone that’s terrified of rebuilding.

If one trusts their scouting, and development path it’s a wise approach. Especially for a team that isn’t going to attract FAs.

This middle of the pack nonsense is predictable, and stale. First round championship banner celebrations.

 

[Leafshater67]

I don’t think Americans realize how much financially worse off Canadians are now. The average person in Winnipeg cannot afford to go to all the games and the corporate types that line the arena in Toronto don’t exist in Winnipeg nearly to the same degree.