Player Discussion William Nylander

[ULF_55]

Now take out the empty net goals against from the players that actually play defense or are out late and also the multiple shortys against which was a crazy move by Berube lol.. and lets see the zone starts and matchups too.

These empty netters against seem to happen every 3rd. game.

Was interesting the Leafs last empty netter for, surprised the pass to JT rather than taking the shot.

 

[BraveCanadian]

These empty netters against seem to happen every 3rd. game.

Was interesting the Leafs last empty netter for, surprised the pass to JT rather than taking the shot.

I think they Leafs have given up 12 eng against this year? Hard to find good stats on it.

I know two were in one game with the Leafs on the PP so whoever was on then took a good minus.

 

[ULF_55]

I think they Leafs have given up 12 eng against this year? Hard to find good stats on it.

I know two were in one game with the Leafs on the PP so whoever was on then took a good minus.

Usually, it would be Matthews, marner, Nylander and Tavares taking the hit for those.

 

[thewave]

Nylander and warrior should NEVER be in the same sentence.

No matter how many times people repeat that nonsense on here it will never be true.

McCabe is a warrior, give him a letter instead.



Nope.

He's just been lucky so far that the occasional times he has shown up have matched up to opportune times. There is a reason he's 3rd in points among all these failures.



So he shows up when it counts but we always have an excuse ready for the inconsistent effort and results.

People just have to face that Nylander is our Pittsburgh version of Kessel. Some nights he might win you a game, some nights be might be invisible and some nights he'll lose you a game. That is why you can never win with him as your best player and he has to be sheltered and played to his strengths to get the most out of his gamebreaking.

Three coaches in a row have demonstrated they have this figured this out.

You're just being aggressive towards our best playof performer and you are completely discredited by suggesting McCabe get a letter. That's some next level right there. You could pick Tanev long before McCabe.

If we tossed Marner on 10 random combination lines and he suffered You would say... we need to give him stable partners but because it's Willy he is clearly just terrible and lazy lol.

I am just going to bin this in the shilling for Marner category. No worries we all know how Leafs fans need to pick a single talented player to destroy (Willy) and one to lionize like some sort of god (Marner). We even have the bonus injury prone star at this point to be concerned about (Matthews).

Checking all the boxes

 

[BraveCanadian]

You're just being aggressive towards our best playof performer and you are completely discredited by suggesting McCabe get a letter. That's some next level right there. You could pick Tanev long before McCabe.

If we tossed Marner on 10 random combination lines and he suffered You would say... we need to give him stable partners but because it's Willy he is clearly just terrible and lazy lol.

I am just going to bin this in the shilling for Marner category. No worries we all know how Leafs fans need to pick a single talented player to destroy (Willy) and one to lionize like some sort of god (Marner). We even have the bonus injury prone star at this point to be concerned about (Matthews).

Checking all the boxes

Nylander is not our best playoff performer. He is 3rd in points while playing in a sheltered role.

No amount of wishful narrative will change the facts.

Marner makes every line he is on better as has been shown in the stats time and time again and by every coach the Leafs have had recently putting him on a line to get others going.

 

[thewave]

Nylander is not our best playoff performer. He is 3rd in points while playing in a sheltered role.

No amount of wishful narrative will change the facts.

Marner makes every line he is on better as has been shown in the stats time and time again and by every coach the Leafs have had recently putting him on a line to get others going.

Great throw him on with Domi and Holmberg next game. Let's see the hilarity. You are doing a Dekesy type discussion.

 

[sunstersun]

Nylander is not our best playoff performer. He is 3rd in points while playing in a sheltered role.

No amount of wishful narrative will change the facts.

Marner makes every line he is on better as has been shown in the stats time and time again and by every coach the Leafs have had recently putting him on a line to get others going.

I'm sure you made these very strong opinions known after the Boston series.

 

[Menzinger]

People just have to face that Nylander is our Pittsburgh version of Kessel. Some nights he might win you a game, some nights be might be invisible and some nights he'll lose you a game. That is why you can never win with him as your best player and he has to be sheltered and played to his strengths to get the most out of his gamebreaking.

Three coaches in a row have demonstrated they have this figured this out.

The irony here is that Kessel was one of the biggest drivers of the be Pens getting their cups - including literally losing the Conn Smythe only by a hair to the best hockey player in the world at that time

 

[GoonieFace]

Nylander is not our best playoff performer. He is 3rd in points while playing in a sheltered role.

No amount of wishful narrative will change the facts.

Marner makes every line he is on better as has been shown in the stats time and time again and by every coach the Leafs have had recently putting him on a line to get others going.

I’m pretty sure it’s always Willy getting stuck with trash linemates and somehow they always seem to score. Marner needs guys like Tavares/Matthews etc, Willy can drag anybody along with him.

 

[thewave]

I’m pretty sure it’s always Willy getting stuck with trash linemates and somehow they always seem to score. Marner needs guys like Tavares/Matthews etc, Willy can drag anybody along with him.

Until Willy has a slump or injury where swiftly becomes a heartless soft perimeter player that we likely should never have signed etc etc. The hate for Willy gets turned on so fast it's not funny. His Migraine as strange as it seemed was a prime example.

I can see it now if Marner had a Migraine and missed a game or two, the rest of the series his lack of performance would be blamed on him likely really having a mild concussion and playing injured for the team like a Canadian warrior.

 

[ULF_55]

Until Willy has a slump or injury where swiftly becomes a heartless soft perimeter player that we likely should never have signed etc etc. The hate for Willy gets turned on so fast it's not funny. His Migraine as strange as it seemed was a prime example.

I can see it now if Marner had a Migraine and missed a game or two, the rest of the series his lack of performance would be blamed on him likely really having a mild concussion and playing injured for the team like a Canadian warrior.

And he still ended up leading the team in goals.

 

[thewave]

And he still ended up leading the team in goals.

At the end of the day flawed as he may be, he wanted to be here. Signed with 8 year term. Is one of the best goal scorers in the league and had exceptional zone entries and clutch performances. We all wanted to see 10m x 8, I get it, but he is a good player that wants to be here and win here no fuss no drama about being left off the murals, no letter etc.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The irony here is that Kessel was one of the biggest drivers of the be Pens getting their cups - including literally losing the Conn Smythe only by a hair to the best hockey player in the world at that time

Anyone can get hot at the right time and both Kessel and Willy have the ability to break a game open.

Nothing saying Willy couldn't put up a Conn Smythe level performance if he turned it up a notch game in and game out for a whole playoff. He has the ability he just hasn't had the drive yet.

I’m pretty sure it’s always Willy getting stuck with trash linemates and somehow they always seem to score. Marner needs guys like Tavares/Matthews etc, Willy can drag anybody along with him.

Couple of reasons for that.

1) Willy is often sheltered down the lineup because he gets caved in defensively.
2) Willy just does his thing no matter who he is with so it really doesn't matter much?

Again, the numbers and three coaches agree.

Marner is more dependent on finishers for his plays just by being a playmaker, but in every other respect he is a better net player than Nylander.. and he can pot 30+ himself in a good year too.

 

[Confucius]

I think they Leafs have given up 12 eng against this year? Hard to find good stats on it.

I know two were in one game with the Leafs on the PP so whoever was on then took a good minus.

Which NHL Team Has Allowed The Most Empty Net Goals This Season | StatMuse

The Colorado Avalanche have given up the most empty-net goals by a team this season, with 15 allowed.

www.statmuse.com

TEAM	OPP ENG	SEASON	GP	W	L	OTL	PTS	PTS%	SOW	SOL	G	GA	DIFF	PP%	PK%	S/GP	S%	SA/GP	SV%
1		Avalanche	15	2024-25	38	23	15	0	46	.605	1	0	129	123	6	23.5	77.6	29.61	11.5	26.89	.880
2		Blackhawks	14	2024-25	38	12	24	2	26	.342	1	0	95	129	-34	23.5	84.1	25.53	9.8	29.82	.886
3		Predators	13	2024-25	38	11	20	7	29	.382	0	0	91	122	-31	18.7	83.9	29.42	8.1	29.66	.892
4		Maple Leafs	12	2024-25	38	23	13	2	48	.632	0	0	118	106	12	20.5	81.5	28.63	10.8	29.16	.904
5		Islanders

 

[ULF_55]

Anyone can get hot at the right time and both Kessel and Willy have the ability to break a game open.

Nothing saying Willy couldn't put up a Conn Smythe level performance if he turned it up a notch game in and game out for a whole playoff. He has the ability he just hasn't had the drive yet.



Couple of reasons for that.

1) Willy is often sheltered down the lineup because he gets caved in defensively.
2) Willy just does his thing no matter who he is with so it really doesn't matter much?

Again, the numbers and three coaches agree.

Marner is more dependent on finishers for his plays just by being a playmaker, but in every other respect he is a better net player than Nylander.. and he can pot 30+ himself in a good year too.

Which 3 coaches? Babcock when they were 20-22 years old?

Are we sure one player isn't more dependent on his center than the other?

Strange that the "Selke" candidate needs to be lined up with / sheltered by another "Selke" candidate.

A failed experiment, tried over and over again.

It is indefensible.

The team really needs another Top 6 center so that marner can elevate another line without Matthews on it. Matthews doesn't need marner, right?


Nylander and Matthews are the playoffs goal scorers, even strength and powerplay.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Press sort on points or your favourite plus minus and try again. You know, if we’re cherry picking.

 

[GoonieFace]

Anyone can get hot at the right time and both Kessel and Willy have the ability to break a game open.

Nothing saying Willy couldn't put up a Conn Smythe level performance if he turned it up a notch game in and game out for a whole playoff. He has the ability he just hasn't had the drive yet.



Couple of reasons for that.

1) Willy is often sheltered down the lineup because he gets caved in defensively.
2) Willy just does his thing no matter who he is with so it really doesn't matter much?

Again, the numbers and three coaches agree.

Marner is more dependent on finishers for his plays just by being a playmaker, but in every other respect he is a better net player than Nylander.. and he can pot 30+ himself in a good year too.

Saying one individual player gets caved in makes no sense. There are 4 other players and a goalie on the ice. Being with inferior defencemen also doesn’t help. Although I don’t subscribe to +/-, him and Marner have the same this year.

Marner being dependent on other players is the exact reason why I would be hesitant to throw huge money at him. He doesn’t skate well and isn’t strong on the boards, two things that don’t age well. Tavares can still be effective at board battles even with his diminished speed.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Marner is more dependent on finishers for his plays just by being a playmaker, but in every other respect he is a better net player than Nylander.. and he can pot 30+ himself in a good year too.

Marner is the better playmaker and defensive player

Nylander is the better goal scorer and skater/zone entry guy

neither are going to hit anything and neither will get into a fight or even involved in a big scrum.

in RS marner is way more consistent, game to game or year to year. Nylander is much more up and down in his games and years.

in playoffs it sorta flips, marner is way more up and down, in which he has the best series between the two but also some of the worst, whereas nylander is usually just good but never as bad or as good as marner's.

 

[BraveCanadian]

In playoffs it sorta flips, marner is way more up and down, in which he has the best series between the two but also some of the worst, whereas nylander is usually just good but never as bad or as good as marner's.

That’s the narrative for sure.

Yet somehow Marner has out produced him and been a much bigger net positive while having tougher matchups and starts. Weird.

I think the famous over the glass goofs have just held on forever tbh but none of these guys have been good and I’m tired of people pretending that one of them has been.

 

[ULF_55]

Wonder where he'll end up end of this year?

 

[Aashir Mallik]

That’s the narrative for sure.

Yet somehow Marner has out produced him and been a much bigger net positive while having tougher matchups and starts. Weird.

I think the famous over the glass goofs have just held on forever tbh but none of these guys have been good and I’m tired of people pretending that one of them has been.

This isn't a narrative, it's been the facts and no where did I say one was good or the other not, In my eyes all of them have underproduced and Nylander will be the most if he stays the current form at 11.5, a .8-.9 ppg worked at 7, not at 11.5. It just seems like you don't like it when anyone says anything even neutral about nylander or the others.

We can just go series for series if you don't believe it then, brief overviews because I don't want to spend 3 hours doing this. Also I will only do 18-19 onwards because I wasn't a fan before then so I will only be able to look at stats and speak.

Marner
2024 R1: 7GP 1G 2A 3P - One of the worst series I've seen either play. Completely ineffective and passing the puck like it would eat him

2023 R2: 5GP 1G 2A 3P - He wasn't really worse than anyone and infact was the best out of the 4 but that's not saying much when I wouldn't give any of them over a C

2023 R1: 6GP 2G 9A 11P - He was just really good this series, idgaf when or how he got the points, he got them and lead the team to a big series win. Probably the best series between the two, if not 100% top 3

2022 R1: 7GP 2G 6A 8P - Another strong outing, unlucky we didn't win, but not much to do with what he did, more so lack of depth scoring

2021 R1: 7GP 0G 4A 4P - This is a doozy, on paper he dominated but he couldn't get a single goal and his line couldn't score. I don't like this series of his because it felt way too much like he was being a playmaker, and not shooting as much as he should even with 19 shots.

2020 R1/QR: 5GP 0G 4A 4P - This is another bad series and he couldn't record a single goal

2019 R1: 7GP 2G 2A 4P - a not great series, he was dynamite the first couple games but then he went complete ghost the remaining series and gets remembered for a single block.

Nylander
2024 R1: 4GP 3G 0A 3P - He was awful the first game back, looked drunk and was falling over everywhere on the ice, but then he turned it on afterwards, and really took charge in game 6 and 7 scoring the last 3 goals straight.

2023 R2: 5GP 2G 1A 3P - he was the second out of the core 4, he generated alot especially game 2 where he set tavares up for 4-5 Grade A scoring chances that he fumbled, but like marner is past series's generating doesn't mean a great series, puck has to hit the back of the net. At least he scored a few goals this series, but all in all he was mediocre too.

2023 R1: 6GP 2G 5A 7P - He was alright, but was a mess defensively. Made some key plays in the 4-3 and 4-1 comebacks but he was just ok,

2022 R1: 7GP 3G 4A 7P - He was bad the first 3 games with 0 points, but turned it on the last couple.

2021 R1: 7GP 5G 3A 8P - He was our best player, this is up there with marner's tampa. He was playing with trash linemates and just kept producing. He was the only guy of the core to show up (JT not having the chance).

2020 R1: 5GP 2G 2A 4P - He was ok again, he scored a couple goals and generated a bit, but keefe also decided to try him at center with nobody in game 5 and loaded up JT-Matthews-Marner.

2019 R1: 7GP 2G 1A 3P - Bad....he was passable when kadri played the first two games, but afterwards playing third line and was invisible and somehow cost us a goal in game 2.

If I had to rank the series's I'd say:
Marner Tampa 2023
Nylander Montreal 2021
Marner Tampa 2022
Nylander Tampa 2022
Marner Florida
Nylander Florida
Nylander Columbus
Marner Boston 2019
Marner Columbus
Marner Montreal
Nylander Boston 2019
Marner Boston 2024

Marner has 2 of the top 3, but also 3 of the bottom 4...nylander is almost entirely in the middle with only 1 real standout series in a good way, but also only 1 standout series in a bad way. Apart from that he hasn't been great or bad, just ok/good

Again I want to reiterate for your sake, that this doesn't mean I am calling marner good in the playoffs, neither does this mean I am calling nylander good in the playoffs.

 

[notDatsyuk]

This isn't a narrative, it's been the facts and no where did I say one was good or the other not, In my eyes all of them have underproduced and Nylander will be the most if he stays the current form at 11.5, a .8-.9 ppg worked at 7, not at 11.5. It just seems like you don't like it when anyone says anything even neutral about nylander or the others.

We can just go series for series if you don't believe it then, brief overviews because I don't want to spend 3 hours doing this. Also I will only do 18-19 onwards because I wasn't a fan before then so I will only be able to look at stats and speak.

Marner
2024 R1: 7GP 1G 2A 3P - One of the worst series I've seen either play. Completely ineffective and passing the puck like it would eat him

2023 R2: 5GP 1G 2A 3P - He wasn't really worse than anyone and infact was the best out of the 4 but that's not saying much when I wouldn't give any of them over a C

2023 R1: 6GP 2G 9A 11P - He was just really good this series, idgaf when or how he got the points, he got them and lead the team to a big series win. Probably the best series between the two, if not 100% top 3

2022 R1: 7GP 2G 6A 8P - Another strong outing, unlucky we didn't win, but not much to do with what he did, more so lack of depth scoring

2021 R1: 7GP 0G 4A 4P - This is a doozy, on paper he dominated but he couldn't get a single goal and his line couldn't score. I don't like this series of his because it felt way too much like he was being a playmaker, and not shooting as much as he should even with 19 shots.

2020 R1/QR: 5GP 0G 4A 4P - This is another bad series and he couldn't record a single goal

2019 R1: 7GP 2G 2A 4P - a not great series, he was dynamite the first couple games but then he went complete ghost the remaining series and gets remembered for a single block.

Nylander
2024 R1: 4GP 3G 0A 3P - He was awful the first game back, looked drunk and was falling over everywhere on the ice, but then he turned it on afterwards, and really took charge in game 6 and 7 scoring the last 3 goals straight.

2023 R2: 5GP 2G 1A 3P - he was the second out of the core 4, he generated alot especially game 2 where he set tavares up for 4-5 Grade A scoring chances that he fumbled, but like marner is past series's generating doesn't mean a great series, puck has to hit the back of the net. At least he scored a few goals this series, but all in all he was mediocre too.

2023 R1: 6GP 2G 5A 7P - He was alright, but was a mess defensively. Made some key plays in the 4-3 and 4-1 comebacks but he was just ok,

2022 R1: 7GP 3G 4A 7P - He was bad the first 3 games with 0 points, but turned it on the last couple.

2021 R1: 7GP 5G 3A 8P - He was our best player, this is up there with marner's tampa. He was playing with trash linemates and just kept producing. He was the only guy of the core to show up (JT not having the chance).

2020 R1: 5GP 2G 2A 4P - He was ok again, he scored a couple goals and generated a bit, but keefe also decided to try him at center with nobody in game 5 and loaded up JT-Matthews-Marner.

2019 R1: 7GP 2G 1A 3P - Bad....he was passable when kadri played the first two games, but afterwards playing third line and was invisible and somehow cost us a goal in game 2.

If I had to rank the series's I'd say:
Marner Tampa 2023
Nylander Montreal 2021
Marner Tampa 2022
Nylander Tampa 2022
Marner Florida
Nylander Florida
Nylander Columbus
Marner Boston 2019
Marner Columbus
Marner Montreal
Nylander Boston 2019
Marner Boston 2024

Marner has 2 of the top 3, but also 3 of the bottom 4...nylander is almost entirely in the middle with only 1 real standout series in a good way, but also only 1 standout series in a bad way. Apart from that he hasn't been great or bad, just ok/good

Again I want to reiterate for your sake, that this doesn't mean I am calling marner good in the playoffs, neither does this mean I am calling nylander good in the playoffs.

Did you omit the Nylander 2024 in the rankings for a reason?

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Did you omit the Nylander 2024 in the rankings for a reason?

lol nope I just forgot somehow, I even talked about it above..

I would slot it in around the 2022 tampa series's. Maybe inbetween the marner and nylander series. We played a low scoring series and he scored b2b2b goals before we lost. It wasn't enough to be a stand out series for me because he wasn't really impactful game 4 and 5, so it isn't on the level of his montreal one where he was a stand out player every single game, but he also wasn't as invisible for 3-4 games like he was in tampa 2022.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That’s the narrative for sure.

Yet somehow Marner has out produced him and been a much bigger net positive while having tougher matchups and starts. Weird.

I think the famous over the glass goofs have just held on forever tbh but none of these guys have been good and I’m tired of people pretending that one of them has been.

I can't be bothered to look it up ATM so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The pattern established over 8 years now is that Marner is ~100 point player for the first 86 games of the season, then he turns into a ~40 point player. It has nothing to do with over the glass goofs - paying Marner like he's one of the best players in the league and him turning into a 40 point player once players have settled into playoff hockey, that's the problem.

Recent history is even worse. IIRC, the first 4 games against TB in 2023 he had 9 points but he's been a ~40 point player in the playoffs since then and that includes 2 full series.

It seems obvious that recent history carries more weight that what happened many years ago, and based on recent history, Marner is not a player who you can count on in the playoffs.

Great player in the regular season for sure. If we had no playoff ambitions whatsoever, I'd have no problem paying him top dollar. He puts up points, plays solid defence and he's probably one of the most fun to watch players in the league. After game 86 though, no offence but he sucks. I mean, he's still maybe played at a middle 6 forward level or something but for an 11 million dollar forward, he sucks. The future hasn't happened yet so maybe he changes the narrative, doesn't seem too likely though.

 

[ULF_55]

So how did Nylander fair with regards to his entire contract in the playoffs.

Playoffs - P/GP 25th.

IIRC he was around -80th. in NHL for Cap on his last contract.

Minimum 20 playoff games.