Will we be average for years to come? How about mediocre?

[Holdurbreathe]

Why did we even acquire Hemsky? Clearly Melnyk gave Murray the green light for whatever reason. It was unrealistic at that point to think he would be the difference between us making the playoffs or not. If anything it just put some fans in the stands for the remaining games to generate some revenue. It was pointless to acquire him as we can now see that Melnyk was/is not willing to pony up the money to keep him. In the end it was just draft picks thrown away.

Yet at the same time you say you wouldn't be surprised to see us acquire players like Moulson, Statsny, or Grabovski?? Why wouldn't you be surprised when you very clearly just argued that Melnyk is not willing to pay money for "shiny new toys" which those free agents will be. Lots of teams will be willing to pay for those toys & Melnyk has demonstrated time & time again that he will not. Yet you have faith that somehow we'll be acquiring these key free agents while in the same breath praising Melnyk for not blowing money on key free agents.

I'm totally fine with not signing Hemsky & letting Spezza go. I'm totally fine with not spending money for the sake of spending money. My problem is the image that Melnyk is giving to Ottawa as a team that's not willing to spend & that makes the Senators an unattractive destination for players. So when the time comes that Melnyk finally is willing to spend money, it might not matter if those players don't want to play here.

IMO the answer to your first question is, to show the players management hadn't given up on them nor in their belief the team could make the playoffs.

Why Hemsky? Simply because player Murray really wanted for the long term were either not available or team's wanted too much in return.

Fans on this board were screaming to give Spezza a proven winger, Murray did at the cost of a 3rd and 5th round pick with 20 games left.

Almost 25% of the season remained with a reasonable opportunity for a wild card spot, yet you question why Murray made a move?

For a proven winger, a 2015 3rd and 2014 5th in what has been proclaimed a very weak draft is a bargain.

However the results of the trade aren't known beforehand, so what did the addition of Hemsky mean to the Ottawa Senators where it really matter, wins and losses.

Over the twenty games the team's record was 10-7-3. A marginally better pace than they had played prior to the trade 27-24-11.

Worth keeping in mind before the five in a row finish they were playing under .500 with Hemsky.

Unfortunately the addition of Hemsky did little to change the teams fortunes, even though Hemsky played some of his best hockey in ages.

In hindsight the trade didn't make as great a difference as hoped, but the cost wasn't high. As well you can be sure Melnyk had no problem with the deal if the addition of Hemsky kept people in the seats deeper into the season, nor should any fan that has been clamouring for the Sens to spend more on players.

So why would Murray offer the reported $10M/3year contract to Hemsky?

Simply because there is no need for a GM to make his best offer when he owns the players rights, its not UFA time yet.

It is nothing but a starting point, but when the player counters with a number that just far exceeds the value a GM has placed on that player, time to move on.

 

[Scrub*]

We traded for Hemsky to show that Spezza can still produce if he has a decent winger. Greening and Condra on his wings drove me nuts, such a waste of Spezza talent.

 

[salomonster]

We traded for Hemsky to show that Spezza can still produce if he has a decent winger. Greening and Condra on his wings drove me nuts, such a waste of Spezza talent.

Yes I agree in terms of finding some talent for Spezz who was lacking chemistry, while trying not to mess with the Turris line which has great chemisty.

BM has shown in the past a willingness to do dress rehearsals with players at or near the trade deadline to see if the fit is good in an attempt to re-sign.

Perfect example is Turris.

Now that Spezz is on the block it's all about getting fair return and re-building a 2nd line.

 

[Xspyrit]

We traded for Hemsky to show that Spezza can still produce if he has a decent winger. Greening and Condra on his wings drove me nuts, such a waste of Spezza talent.

We don't know much of what happens in reality (but still probably too much), but maybe it was to try and convince Spezza for an extension. We find you a winger and everyone will be happy. However, they had success and it doesn't look like this scenario will happen. Maybe, they also wanted to give some value back to Spezza??? Who knows?

Other reasons:

- Try to push and make the playoffs until the end, it's not over until it's over (personally, I hate the loser mentality and don't believe in tanking). At worst, try to finish the season on a positive note.

- Try to re-sign the player as you have his rights and he already have a taste of the team/city. You can also see the fit for yourself.

- Get more people in the stands, helps marketing

- Possible incentive for Spezza to extend?


Anyway, dealing a 3rd and a late pick is not a heavy price. One of those picks was for the retained salary though, so it's more like the value was 1 pick

 

[Big Papi]

enough with these threads, please. can they not all be combined into one thread? I think I proposed it before, we can name it the chicken little thread....

 

[Stylizer1]

I don't think anyone would have been happy if we had traded Spezza and Alfie in 2011: we made the playoffs the following year and the year after that so it's not like we were that bad either.

Bad enough to blown it up now?

For all of his faults he does produce.

 

[Back in Black]

Every year, every team get's a 60% chance of making the playoffs, since 16 teams out of 30 make it.

You can thank MURRAY's scouts for getting good talent, but it's only gotten us so far into the pLayoffs, it's his job to make us better, and that he hasn't been doing.

Yes we will average under MURRAY, other GM's have managed to excel with a budget.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Bad enough to blown it up now?

For all of his faults he does produce.

Spezza wants out, not the other way around

 

[x Karlsson x 65]

Every year, every team get's a 60% chance of making the playoffs, since 16 teams out of 30 make

Your math is waayyy off dude, just looking at 16 out of 30 you know its basically 50%. When you do the actual math its 53%

 

[Stylizer1]

Spezza wants out, not the other way around

As much as its the media's fault it's managements fault too he wants out. Since we started playing poorly Murray distanced himself from supporting Spezza 100%. When reporters would ask him questions about Spezza his answers were always "I don't know" maybe this or that", " he knows he has to play better". Never "did you watch the game? did you see how the other team was focusing on him......You can't expect one player to always save the day........even if it were Spezza's fault. The coach was the same way. Seemed like it was never his fault for the outcome of the game. His coaching was flawless and the players don't understand type of attitude.

You don't think if Murray were to say to Garrioch or Brennan to lay off in the past that they would have? I'm sure Spezza has said something to Murray before about it.

Sure we all want him to be tough and not let it bother him but when the guy is out and about with his family and people see him in the street it could start to make you feel uneasy knowing that maybe that person hates you. where Alfie on the other hand was welcomed probably everywhere with open arms.

Alfie had bad years but not to the point that Spezza has in his last few years. It felt the Spezza selection for captain by management was almost by default when they went through the whole "we are taking a look at it. and will set a date to announce it" instead of coming out and just saying from the start that this is our man.

Management in this city has been pretty shifty of late and are solely looking to cover their own ***** while this whole "retooling" business is going on.

Spezza is that player that keeps us solid on our top line and why some many good teams want him. Without him the whole that is left will not be filled by anyone on our roster or on the farm. Being a team closer to the bottom than the top each season seems like the end we are headed too.

 

[Laphroaig]

Your math is waayyy off dude, just looking at 16 out of 30 you know its basically 50%. When you do the actual math its 53%

Not to quibble but we play in the east. Eight teams out of sixteen is 50%.

 

[Stylizer1]

Season is young and players are learning a new system so I will give them that. When you look at this line up Karlsson is the only player who stands out as an impact player. after him we have Brassard, Turris, Ryan, Hoffman, and Stone who are all good players, need to take their games to another level or I think this team will be fighting for a playoff spot for years to come = average team.

At this teams best they could probably win a round.

 

[Senzilla]

I say we should just give Cameron time. He is known for his defensive systems, so hopefully he can get the shots on net down. We'll see about the PP, but I think it's overall way too early to hit the panic button. Our roster isn't terrible, but there are certainly guys like Boro who flat out don't belong in the league. We can only hope that some weeding take place in that regard. Let's just give him some time, we're 3-2. We've had struggles, but we're not exactly the Flames.

 

[Stylizer1]

I say we should just give Cameron time. He is known for his defensive systems, so hopefully he can get the shots on net down. We'll see about the PP, but I think it's overall way too early to hit the panic button. Our roster isn't terrible, but there are certainly guys like Boro who flat out don't belong in the league. We can only hope that some weeding take place in that regard. Let's just give him some time, we're 3-2. We've had struggles, but we're not exactly the Flames.

I know were playing like Cameron was coaching but he is not.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

......holy timewarp, Batman!

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I know were playing like Cameron was coaching but he is not.

Probably meant Crawford

 

[Stylizer1]

Probably meant Crawford

I thought he meant Boucher.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I thought he meant Boucher.

Boucher wasn't known for his defense was he? I thought it was Crawford

 

[Tuna99]

As much as its the media's fault it's managements fault too he wants out. Since we started playing poorly Murray distanced himself from supporting Spezza 100%. When reporters would ask him questions about Spezza his answers were always "I don't know" maybe this or that", " he knows he has to play better". Never "did you watch the game? did you see how the other team was focusing on him......You can't expect one player to always save the day........even if it were Spezza's fault. The coach was the same way. Seemed like it was never his fault for the outcome of the game. His coaching was flawless and the players don't understand type of attitude.

You don't think if Murray were to say to Garrioch or Brennan to lay off in the past that they would have? I'm sure Spezza has said something to Murray before about it.

Sure we all want him to be tough and not let it bother him but when the guy is out and about with his family and people see him in the street it could start to make you feel uneasy knowing that maybe that person hates you. where Alfie on the other hand was welcomed probably everywhere with open arms.

Alfie had bad years but not to the point that Spezza has in his last few years. It felt the Spezza selection for captain by management was almost by default when they went through the whole "we are taking a look at it. and will set a date to announce it" instead of coming out and just saying from the start that this is our man.

Management in this city has been pretty shifty of late and are solely looking to cover their own ***** while this whole "retooling" business is going on.

Spezza is that player that keeps us solid on our top line and why some many good teams want him. Without him the whole that is left will not be filled by anyone on our roster or on the farm. Being a team closer to the bottom than the top each season seems like the end we are headed too.

I agree with this, management of this team was horrible, so many bad trades, lazy free agency.

If anyone wants to know why Tampa is better then us, they took Naemtikov and Kucherov in the same draft we had 3 1sr round picks, and then they robbed us in the Bishop trade.

That's how teams get good. Shrewd moves, when was the last time Ottawa made a shrewd move? Signing Mac would be my guess. Showed how burnt out management was for so many years.

 

[Sens]

19 million dollars tied up into Ryan, Phanuef and MacArthur.

Compared to say 15 million for Okposo, Staal and Goligoski. With left over money to have a Seidenberg instead of Boro and then some

Sens have money, it's just being spent on the wrong players

 

[Benjamin]

It'll take one hell of a GM + scouting team to get out from mediocrity while under the handicap of being a budget team thats stuck with the Ryan and Phaneuf contracts.

It's early but it scares me that we're still having the same problems we had under both Maclean and Cameron. If by early December we're still having the same issues, imo we need a serious shuffle.

We've flopped on every major trade in the last 5 years beyond Turris and Methot.

 

[Stylizer1]

19 million dollars tied up into Ryan, Phanuef and MacArthur.

Compared to say 15 million for Okposo, Staal and Goligoski. With left over money to have a Seidenberg instead of Boro and then some

Sens have money, it's just being spent on the wrong players

Letting Murray make the Phaneuf trade was the last nail in the coffin before he stepped down. Phaneuf the player is a decent addition to the team but not at the value. We did get rid of more salary this way but being stuck with that contract for years to come is going to hurt.

Regardless of what Dorion has done this season the roster if Murray's vision and could take another 5 years to get turned around again.

To be honest I really wished that they hired a GM from outside of the organization.

 

[Boud]

I have a feeling that we will come back in 3 years from now to this thread and the answer will still be yes lol

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Letting Murray make the Phaneuf trade was the last nail in the coffin before he stepped down. Phaneuf the player is a decent addition to the team but not at the value. We did get rid of more salary this way but being stuck with that contract for years to come is going to hurt.

Regardless of what Dorion has done this season the roster if Murray's vision and could take another 5 years to get turned around again.

To be honest I really wished that they hired a GM from outside of the organization.

What does Ottawa do alternatively if they don't make the Phaneuf trade?

Cowen is protesting his buyout and may have gotten hurt even more decisively since Ottawa wasn't going to shut him down like Toronto tried to do since Ottawa was a team trying to compete at the time. That's 4.5M this year.

Greening is another 3.2M or 1M both this year and next year via buying out his final year.

Michalek was and is still useful. But he is part of the equation at 4M that is likely untradeable because no one was taking on even slight overpaid contracts this past summer with the cap so tight.

So if the Sens don't make that trade they are spending 12M on what amounts to Milan Michalek. If they do make that trade they are spending 7.5M on Dion Phaneuf. If we are to believe that the Sens have a 68M budget as Melnyk stated late last season, that 4.5M is the difference between most likely keeping or not keeping Mike Hoffman. Not to mention, what does the Senators defense look like without Dion Phaneuf but also without any budget space to make any improvements without trading someone first.

Methot-Karlsson
xxxxx-Ceci
xxxxx-Wideman
xxxxx

Organizational depth at that point is Borowiecki, Chabot, Sieloff, Claesson, Englund, and Kostka to fill in those 3 NHL spots. Not looking good there.

So to recap. The Phaneuf trade opened 4.5M in budget space this season which most likely kept Ottawa from having to liquidate Hoffman for the best possible offer in futures because they wouldn't be able to risk going to arbitration and having to walk away, and it got Ottawa a second pairing defender.

The Sens are very clearly trying to compete now while Karlsson is finishing up his contract. The Phaneuf move was very clearly a short term gain for long term pain type move. But what was the alternative? Being patient enough to throw away this season while those bad contracts finished up and hope that we can replace Hoffman internally? Seems very optimistic.

 

[Tuna99]

What does Ottawa do alternatively if they don't make the Phaneuf trade?

Cowen is protesting his buyout and may have gotten hurt even more decisively since Ottawa wasn't going to shut him down like Toronto tried to do since Ottawa was a team trying to compete at the time. That's 4.5M this year.

Greening is another 3.2M or 1M both this year and next year via buying out his final year.

Michalek was and is still useful. But he is part of the equation at 4M that is likely untradeable because no one was taking on even slight overpaid contracts this past summer with the cap so tight.

So if the Sens don't make that trade they are spending 12M on what amounts to Milan Michalek. If they do make that trade they are spending 7.5M on Dion Phaneuf. If we are to believe that the Sens have a 68M budget as Melnyk stated late last season, that 4.5M is the difference between most likely keeping or not keeping Mike Hoffman. Not to mention, what does the Senators defense look like without Dion Phaneuf but also without any budget space to make any improvements without trading someone first.

Methot-Karlsson
xxxxx-Ceci
xxxxx-Wideman
xxxxx

Organizational depth at that point is Borowiecki, Chabot, Sieloff, Claesson, Englund, and Kostka to fill in those 3 NHL spots. Not looking good there.

So to recap. The Phaneuf trade opened 4.5M in budget space this season which most likely kept Ottawa from having to liquidate Hoffman for the best possible offer in futures because they wouldn't be able to risk going to arbitration and having to walk away, and it got Ottawa a second pairing defender.

The Sens are very clearly trying to compete now while Karlsson is finishing up his contract. The Phaneuf move was very clearly a short term gain for long term pain type move. But what was the alternative? Being patient enough to throw away this season while those bad contracts finished up and hope that we can replace Hoffman internally? Seems very optimistic.

You make good points, but you're missing the real point - Phaneuf is not a very good player.

There are a ton of option on all these players, looks what Detroit did with Datsuk And a Florida did with their salary.

Lots of options on the table, you do t have to go all in on a declining player who is way overpaid. Trade makes sense when it's explained to you, then you look at it on the ice and it doesn't make sense.