Will Marc Andre Fleury Choke Again?

[radapex]

I repeat myself but: this teams defence is a joke which is not helping at all. Noone gave Miller grief when he was playing behind the Sabres "defence".

On a related note, "Ryan Miller is Terrible" (main board).

 

[joeyjake5]

I am not a fleury supporter. Lets face reality about him.

1. He has been in the NHL for ten years. History shows that he gives up one soft goal on average per game and is terrible in handling the puck.

2. He is not a top 10 goalie but certainly not a 20 to 30 goalie. Somewhere in between.

3. The Montreal playoff loss can be contributed to him, the Fly loss to him since Bryz outperformed the flower, and last year he just stunk. The TB loss was not his fault and without Sid, Geno, and Cooke, it just proved that Staal is not a #1 or #2 center.

4. This year so far he has performed better than average.

5. With this team having so many holes can you expect either TUUCKA or Lundquist to be any better. Now if the Pens had a better bottom 6 and minus #S 4 or 44, the Pens would have a decent chance at the cup. The way this team is currently constructed, it would be miracle if the Pens get out of the first round. Only great play by Sid, Geno and the Flower, all three would prevent a first round elimination.

 

[cassius]

I noticed that after I posted those gifs, the Fleury apologists quieted down rather quickly lol.

 

[Joejosh999]

Apologists LOL.



In fact politics or even religion is probably a good reference for this discussion: people are set in their opinions and no one's going to change anybody's mind.

Problem is the Fleury Sucks meme has grown so that it's all some posters can see....take the fluke pop up tying goal - the MAF Sux Brigade flipped out. Even the first goal, I guess because it fit the "MAF sux on off the boards plays" had people blaming the guy. Nisky whiffed on a bouncer, Letang had his BACK to the guy with zero awareness, and he whacked it in from 4 feet away. All Fleury on that one! If he'd poke checked one in on himself like Gus did, I can only imagine the insanity, but it was just "good one, Jussi! "

Just deal with it. He is what he is, athletically gifted but mentally fragile and subject to,playoff pressure collapse. But give credit where it's due, he's had a good regular season and I think may be 4th overall at moment. He may be the 2nd MVP this year behind Sid. He's fantastic in shoot outs, for which the Pens lead the league, and which give an extra point in the standings. MAF is 6-2 this year, and arguably largely responsible for those 6 extra points. By contrast Brodeur and Halak are combined 0 for 6 this year. Think NJD might like an extra 6 points in the standings right now?

I realize the only measurement is the playoffs, and don't have huge expectations. Not behind this defensive scheme with this coach. But don't let the hate color everything you see.

 

[Pens1566]

I noticed that after I posted those gifs, the Fleury apologists quieted down rather quickly lol.

Except the 2nd in your group was deflected right in front of him.

 

[cassius]

Except the 2nd in your group was deflected right in front of him.

Agree to disagree

Even a mediocre goaltender should have been able to stop that. Fleury's positioning was awful on that play..

Cmon man

 

[Pens1566]

Agree to disagree

Even a mediocre goaltender should have been able to stop that. Fleury's positioning was awful on that play..

You can have your own opinion, not your own physics.

 

[TheSniper26]

Except the 2nd in your group was deflected right in front of him.

Even with the deflection, his positioning on the original shot is pretty brutal. He's falling over for reasons unknown.

 

[Pens1566]

Agree to disagree

Even a mediocre goaltender should have been able to stop that. Fleury's positioning was awful on that play..

Cmon man

That angle is even more ridiculous. There are 5 players either directly between the shooter and MAF, or passing through as the shot comes in. His position is shifting because he's tracking from his left to his right as the shooter his going that way towards the boards. Cmon, indeed.

Edit: that's not the same shot ...

 

[Joejosh999]

Yes Fleury is a MEDIOCRE goaltender.
You guys have lost it bro.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Eh... I'm as big of a MAF critic as you'll find around here, but the goal in this gif:

is pretty hard to pin on him for being a total joke and a headcase. There's about half a stadium's worth of players in front of him. Would I like him to find a way to save it with sound positioning? Yes. Do I crucify him if that one goes in? Nah. Those goals happen. It's easier to get mad at that kind of goal when it's MAF, though, because of the two dozen other instances where you sit and say to yourself "How in the ****?"

 

[cassius]

Eh... I'm as big of a MAF critic as you'll find around here, but the goal in this gif:

is pretty hard to pin on him for being a total joke and a headcase. There's about half a stadium's worth of players in front of him. Would I like him to find a way to save it with sound positioning? Yes. Do I crucify him if that one goes in? Nah. Those goals happen. It's easier to get mad at that kind of goal when it's MAF, though, because of the two dozen other instances where you sit and say to yourself "How in the ****?"

Again, I'm not mad about the goal getting in. But look at how suspect his position when dude takes the shot. Fleury is flopping around like a fish before the guy even throws it towards the net.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think the issue is that if a goal like that is considered "not so bad" by his standards... well... then we've probably seen too many years of shoddy goaltending. Obviously that goal ranks low on the all time MAF Backbreaker list. But that's kind of the issue. Because it was still clearly ugly. The dude was going for a swim while the puck was on it's way in. Why? It's almost like he throws himself all over his crease to keep things interesting, or something.

All that said... I have a feeling that he'll be the least of our worries this post season. Which is saying something. Because his overall work in the post season doesn't exactly inspire much confidence. But that just seems to be how the Penguins operate in recent years -- one glaring problem goes away and two more rear their ugly heads to replace it.

If I had to guess, "hot goaltending," "goals that just didn't go in" and "forcefields" will be more of an issue these playoffs. Along with a healthy does of undisciplined idiocy.

 

[Til the End of Time]

I am not a fleury supporter. Lets face reality about him.

...

5. With this team having so many holes can you expect either TUUCKA or Lundquist to be any better.

Apologists LOL.

are you two siblings?

also, to the bolded question, yes, yes, a million times yes. you absolutely could have expected rask or lundqvist to play better than fleury has in the past 4 postseasons, or this regular season, or in the upcoming playoffs.

there have been plenty of terrible defensive teams that have made the playoffs. teams with worse personnel and worse systems. yet few goalies in nhl history have delivered a body of work comparable to fleury.

do you honestly believe that if lundqvist had been in net for the pens the past four postseasons, he would have stats close to fleury?

 

[steveg]

I think the issue is that if a goal like that is considered "not so bad" by his standards... well... then we've probably seen too many years of shoddy goaltending. Obviously that goal ranks low on the all time MAF Backbreaker list. But that's kind of the issue. Because it was still clearly ugly. The dude was going for a swim while the puck was on it's way in. Why? It's almost like he throws himself all over his crease to keep things interesting, or something.

When that shot was taken, I count four bodies DIRECTLY between the shooter, and the goaltender. Isn't some of that "throwing himself all over his crease" likely due to him trying to find a lane to see through?

I simply do not count that type of goal as "bad" against ANY goaltender; that much traffic in front, and the goalie trying to find a line of sight through the bodies...that doesn't strike me as a particularly bad goal, but I guess opinions differ.

 

[ColePens]

Apologists LOL.



In fact politics or even religion is probably a good reference for this discussion: people are set in their opinions and no one's going to change anybody's mind.

Problem is the Fleury Sucks meme has grown so that it's all some posters can see....take the fluke pop up tying goal - the MAF Sux Brigade flipped out. Even the first goal, I guess because it fit the "MAF sux on off the boards plays" had people blaming the guy. Nisky whiffed on a bouncer, Letang had his BACK to the guy with zero awareness, and he whacked it in from 4 feet away. All Fleury on that one! If he'd poke checked one in on himself like Gus did, I can only imagine the insanity, but it was just "good one, Jussi! "

Just deal with it. He is what he is, athletically gifted but mentally fragile and subject to,playoff pressure collapse. But give credit where it's due, he's had a good regular season and I think may be 4th overall at moment. He may be the 2nd MVP this year behind Sid. He's fantastic in shoot outs, for which the Pens lead the league, and which give an extra point in the standings. MAF is 6-2 this year, and arguably largely responsible for those 6 extra points. By contrast Brodeur and Halak are combined 0 for 6 this year. Think NJD might like an extra 6 points in the standings right now?

I realize the only measurement is the playoffs, and don't have huge expectations. Not behind this defensive scheme with this coach. But don't let the hate color everything you see.

I don't really know what you are arguing. I couldn't really find a point. He's proven, A LOT, that he is a pretty bad goalie when it counts. Look at Zatkoff's record this season. I could easily just say "HIS RECORD IS GOOD AND NUMBERS ARE AVERAGE!" But no... I don't. Because I actually watch the player on the ice.

MAF is not all to blame because our d-zone is hilarious, but his consistent silly gaffes are his own demons. The only person to blame is #29.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

When that shot was taken, I count four bodies DIRECTLY between the shooter, and the goaltender. Isn't some of that "throwing himself all over his crease" likely due to him trying to find a lane to see through?

I simply do not count that type of goal as "bad" against ANY goaltender; that much traffic in front, and the goalie trying to find a line of sight through the bodies...that doesn't strike me as a particularly bad goal, but I guess opinions differ.

Yes... there was plenty of traffic. No question. Typically any time a goaltender has to contend with nearly two teams worth of bodies in front of him, I'm not going to bat an eye. But the thing is... that's why goaltenders are supposed to play a positional game, too. Ignore the traffic... what the hell was Fleury doing?

Like I said, it isn't anything close to a "brutal" goal but it's an illustration as to how even his "excusable" goals have a distinct tinge of WTF. And frankly... I just don't understand how it can be argued to the contrary, at this point. I ardently defended the guy for years. He's tough not to pull for. But at some point you have to just kind of throw you arms up and say "enough is enough."

 

[steveg]

do you honestly believe that if lundqvist had been in net for the pens the past four postseasons, he would have stats close to fleury?

NO, absolutely not.

But, on the other hand, I do believe that he would have had stats worse than he does otherwise...

...in other words, YES Fleury melted down...BUT, it honestly appears to me that sometimes he's trying to do TOO MUCH, trying TOO hard (in part because he knows the defense is suspect, and it's all on him). Yes, it IS "mental weakness" to totally crack under that pressure, no doubt about it. BUT, I do think there is at least some hope that he can improve upon that mental part of the game (and seems to have begun that process, this year).

I recall a lesson I learned playing high-school sports; our coaches CONSTANTLY reminded us to "play within ourselves," and not feel like any individual needed to be a hero. They stressed that if each person just focused on doing THEIR part, and not trying to make up for the mistakes or off-days of other teammates, that we would give ourselves the best chance to win. When I watch Fleury in the playoffs, it seems that at times -- as he sees the suspect defense in front of him, he assumes too much responsibility on his own shoulders, and as a result starts making errors that he doesn't usually make, otherwise. YES, that's a problem, mentally, but I don't think it's an insurmountable one.

Just my two cents...

He has stunk overall the last few playoffs, ESPECIALLY last year; but I still hold out some hope that he can right the ship. If his problems where problems of lack of talent or physical ability, that's a much more insurmountable problem than "putting too much pressure on yourself..." HOPEFULLY, the work he has done to fix what's between his ears, carries over into the playoffs. I am cautiously optimistic that it will.

I am willing to bet that, when all is said and done, his post-season stats for this year's playoffs are very similar to his 2013-14 regular-season stats -- which to me, would be a major step forward.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Agree to disagree

Even a mediocre goaltender should have been able to stop that. Fleury's positioning was awful on that play..

Cmon man

Goalies get scored on by deflections all the time, not to mention the 7 guys screening him. Not sure why MAF is now below a mediocre goalie because of that goal.

My favorite gif was the one where Orpik tripped him, lol. Screw MAF, am I right?

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

I'm not sure where I stand on Fleury at this point. He has let in some bad goals, but the defense in front of him has been bad to awful at times. Sometimes when a goalie can't trust his defense, he tries to do too much and overextends himself. For a guy like Fleury who is athletic to begin with, you need to have a defense with some consistency. Make him focus on the basics and have that trust, and he'll be much better for it.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

I cannot believe that - at the time I'm writing this - only 53 percent of respondents believe MAF will choke. I was sure it'd be sitting somewhere around 93 percent.

There's no reason to believe he will not choke.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Name one defense in the league that would prevent MAF from allowing goals from behind the net, or like this one:

(hint: No defense can save MAF from himself)

Also, name a goalie in the NHL that's let in so many spectacularly disgusting goals.

MAF is beyond defending for his post-season play since the Cup run. Plain and simple. He has to be better... A LOT better.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Let's stop it with the 'no goalie can succeed here' stuff. TV did it just last year FFS.

 

[ColePens]

One small thing to talk about - the ability to HOLD the puck. When goalies don't give up rebounds and stop play, it goes a long way to success. What seems like a casual stoppage of play is the difference from 2nd chance goals. THAT is what TV did so well last playoff.

I think Fleury needs to work on that. Keep it simple. Challenge, stop the puck, hold it. Fleury is always trying to rush play. It's so weird.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The pro-Fleury crowd can back it up with regular-season mumbo-jumbo. The anti-Fleury crowd uses the playoffs as their main selling point.

That's the only issue that matters.