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Speculation: Will Dubas fix The Hockey Futures of the Toronto Maple Leafs?

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I think you can have a conversation about what did and didn't go right. I think it's hasty to suggest that some other name would necessarily see any success in this market though. Let's not pretend like embarrassing things didn't happen with every regime in the modern era. The kneejerk reaction is to always be looking for a narrative, but maybe we need to be more comfortable with the idea that there is no easy answer. The alternate timeline could just as easily be spun as the problem, and I imagine some of the directions the team will go during and after the current group will be too.
 
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Racer88 said:
Shanahan should be working in Home Depot and not hockey in any capacity
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I concur lol. Maybe even Tim hortons. Do I think shanahan and dufas have done a good job, he’ll no. But we see the same inept management time and time again. It’s the MlSE heads that hire these people to run the team that need to change. And why in the heck did they extend shanahan another 6 years in 2019 when at the time, he was in his 5th year having showed zero playoff progress….6 yrs!!?
 
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On the other hand though, I do think stability and continuity could be what gets the Leafs out of this rut. Not a sunk cost issue but let this management team move forward with what they've learned and let them grow the program accordingly without the pressure of making a critical error in more all in self preservation moves.

The other extreme scenario of a full on regime change, mandate in new management and a jar head GM and task master coach rooting out the country club set is also a dysfunctional dynamic I'd like to avoid at all costs. Might be satisfying in the moment but these grit grind programs are built over a long period of time and you can't have a new staff throwing the baby out with the bath water.
 
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Stephen said:
On the other hand though, I do think stability and continuity could be what gets the Leafs out of this rut. Not a sunk cost issue but let this management team move forward with what they've learned and let them grow the program accordingly without the pressure of making a critical error in more all in self preservation moves.

The other extreme scenario of a full on regime change, mandate in new management and a jar head GM and task master coach rooting out the country club set is also a dysfunctional dynamic I'd like to avoid at all costs. Might be satisfying in the moment but these grit grind programs are built over a long period of time and you can't have a new staff throwing the baby out with the bath water.
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While I agree with your argument for continuity to a certain extent I also have to point out that a guy who is constantly tying one hand behind his back by not even considering certain things is also risky. A new GM who comes in not beholden to any previous promises and doesn't have to justify keeping certain types of players or certain over paid contracts would do much better in a trade some guys away scenario that we are most likely to need.

Letting the arsonist be in charge of the fire brigade is very risky. He will always try and cover his own ass and try and make himself look better with hindsight.

A new GM can trade MM for instance and if he goes off all MVP later for the new team, he can just say that unfortunately we had to trade him because our team was too imbalanced and we couldn't win playoff games with him. Can you imagine Duby doing that? I don't really see that in his future.
 
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usernamezrhardtodo said:
While I agree with your argument for continuity to a certain extent I also have to point out that a guy who is constantly tying one hand behind his back by not even considering certain things is also risky. A new GM who comes in not beholden to any previous promises and doesn't have to justify keeping certain types of players or certain over paid contracts would do much better in a trade some guys away scenario that we are most likely to need.

Letting the arsonist be in charge of the fire brigade is very risky. He will always try and cover his own ass and try and make himself look better with hindsight.

A new GM can trade MM for instance and if he goes off all MVP later for the new team, he can just say that unfortunately we had to trade him because our team was too imbalanced and we couldn't win playoff games with him. Can you imagine Duby doing that? I don't really see that in his future.
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Haha! Love the arsonists analogy....but a lot of truth in what you say. Frustrating that we haven't heard boo....I wish the board would do something...
 
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harvestglen said:
I think you can have a conversation about what did and didn't go right. I think it's hasty to suggest that some other name would necessarily see any success in this market though. Let's not pretend like embarrassing things didn't happen with every regime in the modern era. The kneejerk reaction is to always be looking for a narrative, but maybe we need to be more comfortable with the idea that there is no easy answer. The alternate timeline could just as easily be spun as the problem, and I imagine some of the directions the team will go during and after the current group will be too.
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All I ask - don't stick with a totally gutless team because we have the talent
And come out and recognize your shit show instead of talking about developing a killer instinct. Own it - these guys don't play hard.
It's still excuses
Shanny f***ing man up and hold people accountable.Or at least hold yourself accountable
 
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Lumberg said:
All I ask - don't stick with a totally gutless team because we have the talent
And come out and recognize your shit show instead of talking about developing a killer instinct. Own it - these guys don't play hard.
It's still excuses
Shanny f***ing man up and hold people accountable.Or at least hold yourself accountable
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Whoever thought what they said at the season end presser was appropriate needs to have their heads examined.
 
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Stephen said:
Looking back at the past 7 years, I suddenly realize that MLSE should have hired Lou Lamoriello to be the president (in Brendan Shanahan's role) and Brendan Shanahan should have been the rookie GM learning on the with Kyle Dubas as his assistant GM. You have your progressive voices building the team they want on a day to day basis but a veteran HHOF hockey mind to be the ultimate guard rails.
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There is nothing progressive about losing or a losing culture.
 
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usernamezrhardtodo said:
While I agree with your argument for continuity to a certain extent I also have to point out that a guy who is constantly tying one hand behind his back by not even considering certain things is also risky. A new GM who comes in not beholden to any previous promises and doesn't have to justify keeping certain types of players or certain over paid contracts would do much better in a trade some guys away scenario that we are most likely to need.

Letting the arsonist be in charge of the fire brigade is very risky. He will always try and cover his own ass and try and make himself look better with hindsight.

A new GM can trade MM for instance and if he goes off all MVP later for the new team, he can just say that unfortunately we had to trade him because our team was too imbalanced and we couldn't win playoff games with him. Can you imagine Duby doing that? I don't really see that in his future.
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I don't think Dubas is an arsonist. He's just spent a lot of money on a hyped up team with a lot of big names that underachieves every year but still carries a ton of value. I just don't want to see a completely reactionary mandate and knee jerk moves from a new GM who is going to be driven partially by ego to undo everything here and then cause more damage in the process.

If and when a Marner trade ever happens, I just hope whomever is making that trade is helping the organization step forward for the like Tony Fernandez and Fred McGriff for Roberto Alomar and Joe Carter. No press conference or explanation required.
 
Stephen said:
I don't think Dubas is an arsonist. He's just spent a lot of money on a hyped up team with a lot of big names that underachieves every year but still carries a ton of value. I just don't want to see a completely reactionary mandate and knee jerk moves from a new GM who is going to be driven partially by ego to undo everything here and then cause more damage in the process.

If and when a Marner trade ever happens, I just hope whomever is making that trade is helping the organization step forward for the like Tony Fernandez and Fred McGriff for Roberto Alomar and Joe Carter. No press conference or explanation required.
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That's why it can't be Dubas and won't be. He is willing as he said, to stake his career over these guys
 
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Lumberg said:
That's why it can't be Dubas and won't be. He is willing as he said, to stake his career over these guys
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For people who are afraid to trade someone, then we need to bring in a new GM who lays down a reality scenario of what the playoffs are and what is expected.

Whoever doesn’t want to evolve can then be traded as we transition to a team that can play skill, heavy, defensively, blue collar.

A GM with no ties to the payment and assembly of this cap, no promises, just an identity we see from a Boston/Tampa/NYI.
 
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darrylsittler27 said:
Then they are toast.
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Clock is ticking.
I can’t see not losing one of Matthews/Nylander in 3 years to UFA.

Especially if we don’t have success again next year.

Eichel is done from not making them.
The media will only be harder on them here next year.
 
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Trapper said:
For people who are afraid to trade someone, then we need to bring in a new GM who lays down a reality scenario of what the playoffs are and what is expected.

Whoever doesn’t want to evolve can then be traded as we transition to a team that can play skill, heavy, defensively, blue collar.

A GM with no ties to the payment and assembly of this cap, no promises, just an identity we see from a Boston/Tampa/NYI.
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Guys have no fear here while Dubas is around. No matter their performance
 
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Lumberg said:
Dubas doesn't think there's anything to fix
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Dubas doesn't admit there is anything to fix. Look at the lineups he gave Babcock vs this year's lineup. Same big 4 but a huge difference in the supporting cast, in spite of the flat cap he has moved his fantasy game closer to the more conventional. Jumbo and Simmonds were gambles that didn't pay off because he waited a bit too late in their careers but his lineups are evolving. He and Shanny have been telling the MLSE Board for years they have a master plan and all we need is patience. Its like "everyone was great this season" and "how can you criticize Mitch" because saying anything else would contradict what he tells his bosses about everything being under control. He knows there are things to fix but he doesn't want to get canned so he deflects everything.

He won't be adding a Ceci or a Barrie because he has seen how useful those stooges actually are in the context of the current Leaf lineup. He could have signed Barrie for $3.75 himself rather than Brodie for $5M. He has gone from "we need to braid our new player's hair so they feel comfortable to "we need top become harder to play against". He will make changes but his room to move is limited.
 
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Dreakmur said:
He was all about finding market inefficiency. What happened with that?
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There are few really low cost talents out there that are not on ELC's. (> $2M).

The market inefficiencies are found in the next level (say $3-$4M range) where you get a may get a guy for 3.5 that performs like a $5 or $6M player. If you can get 3 or 4 of them, you can ice a good team, and it allows for some $7-$8 players.

Trouble with the Leafs right now, is they can't go and get a few guys like that because they need to fill out the roster with the >$2M guys because.......Dubas
 
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