Speculation: Will Dubas fix The Hockey Futures of the Toronto Maple Leafs?

[egd27]

Poor supposition and like tI mentioned to the other poster. The draft pick is gone - we traded it. We don't have it now. What we coulda, shudda, woudda done is moot. However, it is possible to get a pick.

It's possible to win a playoff series as well. Just seems our GM can't assemble a roster to do so.

People need to stop acting like Dubas was the only one who traded picks to try and win.

I stopped acting like Kid Kyle's mistakes were acceptable because of other GM's mistakes instead. Is that ok ?

 

[Leaf Fans]

It's possible to win a playoff series as well. Just seems our GM can't assemble a roster to do so.

He hasn't yet.

 

[egd27]

He hasn't yet.

Well I suppose even a blind squirrel stumbles over an acorn eventually.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Well I suppose even a blind squirrel stumbles over an acorn eventually.

Perhaps they do.

 

[Racer88]

The above got me thinking & researching NHL teams prospect pools.

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-farm-system-rankings/

According to the source & reference provided, the following playoff teams have higher ranked prospect pools:

• Oilers
• Minnesota
• Florida
• Colorado
• Montreal
• Carolina

Ya I keep hearing from posters that we have this great prospect pool but I never hear the prospects names

 

[Racer88]

I posted before but 4 of the other 8 teams that lost in the first round traded at least 3 draft picks this year and Colorado who lost in the 2nd also traded 4 picks this year. Minnesota was the only one to keep all of their picks.

People need to stop acting like Dubas was the only one who traded picks to try and win.

We have a better prospect pool than most of those teams as well.

Could you please name these great prospects.
Thx in advance

 

[HamiltonNHL]

then 80 year old Lou Lamoriello)

Lou left to work with his son for the Islanders. The Leafs didn't get rid of him.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Lou left to work with his son for the Islanders. The Leafs didn't get rid of him.

That’s not accurate.

Lou’s initial three year contract was up and instead of extending his contract as GM, the Leafs demoted him to the role of Special Advisor and made Dubas the GM.

A month later he left and signed with the Islanders.

 

[Coachcorner]

Well since this award is so prestigious, good thing we have the #6 guy, we have the 6th best GM! We should be so happy.

On a side note, pretty sure it is voted on by writers... after a couple of rounds of the playoffs... and the top 2 went to two people who were being called idiots at the start of the season for their moves.

Overall though, good points.

Jim Gregory General Manager of the Year Winners
General managers of the NHL vote for themselves, all of the 31. "Voting is conducted among the 31 team general managers and a panel of five NHL executives and five media members at the conclusion of the regular season." That's a quote of the nhl.com news milord.

 

[Dough72]

when Dubas first took over he talked long and loud about letting his skill players "carry the puck across the blueline". There was a lot of talk about passing plays and creativity and letting his stars shine. Now think about the playoffs and how the neutral-zone turns into a war-zone and whether this is a gm that really understands playoff hockey at all.

 

[ToneDog]

when Dubas first took over he talked long and loud about letting his skill players "carry the puck across the blueline". There was a lot of talk about passing plays and creativity and letting his stars shine. Now think about the playoffs and how the neutral-zone turns into a war-zone and whether this is a gm that really understands playoff hockey at all.

The sad part is Shanny does and let's Dubas carry on with this charade.

 

[Dough72]

The sad part is Shanny does and let's Dubas carry on with this charade.

For a pair who like to parade around as objective and being above such things as "bias", they are two of the most biased and mule-headed managers I have ever seen. Even casual fans can tell the team is too soft for the playoffs but 5 years later ShanaDubas still refuses to budge on their mythic quest to re-think hockey.

 

[ToneDog]

For a pair who like to parade around as objective and being above such things as "bias", they are two of the most biased and mule-headed managers I have ever seen. Even casual fans can tell the team is too soft for the playoffs but 5 years later ShanaDubas still refuses to budge on their mythic quest to re-think hockey.

They spewed bs last summer saying they needed to become more difficult to play against. Dubas' answer was Simmonds, Vesey, Jumbo, Boyd, Barabanov, Lehtonen, Brodie, Bogo, Gally and Foligno. He was 1.5 for 10 which should get his demoted to Double A but only in T.O. does he get to keep swinging for the fences.

 

[rumman]

They spewed bs last summer saying they needed to become more difficult to play against. Dubas' answer was Simmonds, Vesey, Jumbo, Boyd, Barabanov, Lehtonen, Brodie, Bogo, Gally and Foligno. He was 1.5 for 10 which should get his demoted to Double A but only in T.O. does he get to keep swinging for the fences.

well, at least Bogo did his job, now will get paid fairly elsewhere..........

 

[darrylsittler27]

when Dubas first took over he talked long and loud about letting his skill players "carry the puck across the blueline". There was a lot of talk about passing plays and creativity and letting his stars shine. Now think about the playoffs and how the neutral-zone turns into a war-zone and whether this is a gm that really understands playoff hockey at all.

He doesn't, he has been faking it and it shows.

 

[nuck]

Sort of a tongue and cheek title, but I was thinking about our prospects and lack of draft picks.

Is Dubas going to plug and play who we have in the organization next fall? I ask this because it seemed implied by the way they've structured the salary allocation.

Is there any way TOR can move someone for extra picks this draft (and next)? It bothers me when it appears that Dubas seems to have been moving on the present all too much lately.

Do you see this happening?

______ Matthews Marner
Robertson Tavares Nylander
Mikheyev Hirovenen Hallander
Anderson ___________ Spezza

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Holl
Sandin Liljgren

Campbell
___________

^Many of these are mere suggestions. I don't know how many are NHL ready.

What do you think...of the future?

I don't think Dubas will take the long view except by co-incidence. People complained about Lou giving up 2nds for old vets but KD has been giving 1sts for basically zero results. When a GM thinks he is "there" the futures get moved and if that's what Kyle thought this season, that is obviously how he will roll next. This has to be his last kick at the can to have a solid playoff, so if anything more picks might be outbound along with any player who wasn't on the playoff roster. Maybe a mid/later pick or two inbound to equalize value in a Rielly trade but he might even own-rental Rielly to go into the next season with a group he knows. 2022-23 is not his priority.

Not a huge Dubas fan as most know but there is a new and weird environment shaping up around the X draft protected lists and this may be something he can work with. Is another team's 4th best D better than the Leaf's? Will there be unprotected Leaf players who are better than another club's bottom protected players? Is there a multi player trade to be made to a club with little depth? Players are being exposed that would never be in a normal year and the Kraken may end up with a surplus somewhere that might make the Leafs a better team. The dice are rolling in a bunch of different areas.

I don't think adding a 1st somehow will save Dubas's future, but getting a 1st and trading that for a useful player today may. You might not like his cap allocation or his skills with big contracts but he and his group think outside the box all the time. This summer is a one year anomaly and an unconventional thinker will exploit this. Dubas and the Leafs have a much better chance for a win here than in the UFA market.

 

[nuck]

Analytics is like 10% of team building.
Dubas is fine there. He failed to manage his RFAs and was too timid to trade them when they put themselves over the team.

Hiring someone great at the 10% and inexperienced at the 90% was silly.

Shanny and Dubas must go.

Kyle Dubas Is Not an Analytics GM, and His Failures Don’t Define the Movement

I don't necessarily disagree with the bolded but even the analytics people are scratching their heads about Dubas. He seems to have been making some moves to balance an unconventional lineup while ignoring the areas of analytics that should instantly warn you away from players that don't generate wins.

 

[Stephen]

Kyle Dubas Is Not an Analytics GM, and His Failures Don’t Define the Movement

I don't necessarily disagree with the bolded but even the analytics people are scratching their heads about Dubas. He seems to have been making some moves to balance an unconventional lineup while ignoring the areas of analytics that should instantly warn you away from players that don't generate wins.

The Dubas backlash has been growing since the end of the season and it’s not really a surprise as to why.

If we go back to the foundational narratives of analytics in sports, you go back to Billy Beane and Moneyball where a small market Oakland Athletics get the leg up on the competition by fielding under valued players and letting overpriced stars go. More wins that cost less dollars.

Kyle Dubas has spent more money than everyone else and hasn’t taken the team past the Dave Nonis “high water mark” of 2013 which was the crisis point which required a Shanaplan rebuild of the franchise in the first place.

 

[Dreakmur]

The Dubas backlash has been growing since the end of the season and it’s not really a surprise as to why.

If we go back to the foundational narratives of analytics in sports, you go back to Billy Beane and Moneyball where a small market Oakland Athletics get the leg up on the competition by fielding under valued players and letting overpriced stars go. More wins that cost less dollars.

Kyle Dubas has spent more money than everyone else and hasn’t taken the team past the Dave Nonis “high water mark” of 2013 which was the crisis point which required a Shanaplan rebuild of the franchise in the first place.

He was all about finding market inefficiency. What happened with that?

 

[nuck]

The Dubas backlash has been growing since the end of the season and it’s not really a surprise as to why.

If we go back to the foundational narratives of analytics in sports, you go back to Billy Beane and Moneyball where a small market Oakland Athletics get the leg up on the competition by fielding under valued players and letting overpriced stars go. More wins that cost less dollars.

Kyle Dubas has spent more money than everyone else and hasn’t taken the team past the Dave Nonis “high water mark” of 2013 which was the crisis point which required a Shanaplan rebuild of the franchise in the first place.

So.... Dubyball? . Yeah he is a cheesehead but if the cap had kept rising who knows? The JT signing created a house of cards and Covid knocked it down.

Now the "Shanaplan" was basically a bonehead with no experience coming in and telling MLSE "you can't just aspire to the playoffs every year and nothing more, and I am going to spend a ton on management with prior success". Good stuff, but no special insight or knowledge required, and as soon as things required a hockey mind to deal with them, he basically acted like he was working for Kyle. He turned into some kind of sheep and now gives us some kind of stay the course drivel without any apparent endgame. "We'll keep working" WTF?

Keefe is not an NHL coach yet and as mad as I am with Dubas, this is Shany's mess to fix and he has opted to turtle.

 

[hotpaws]

He was all about finding market inefficiency. What happened with that?

that was the reason he drafted prospects who've passed through the draft once or twice and so it's far that strategy has panned out as well as the rest of his moves

 

[Mess]

The Dubas backlash has been growing since the end of the season and it’s not really a surprise as to why.

Kyle Dubas has spent more money than everyone else and hasn’t taken the team past the Dave Nonis “high water mark” of 2013 which was the crisis point which required a Shanaplan rebuild of the franchise in the first place.

Interesting point that the Boston series collapse in 2013 and the Montreal collapse of 2021 were both low point "high water mark" comparables.

The irony being that the Boston series the beginning of the end, and the scorched earth reset button pushed, and now their selling this Montreal collapse as just the end of the new beginning, and we're on the right track and just more patience is required, steady as she goes, 8 years later, as this is the Shanaplan realized.

SIMMONS: This is the Leafs team Brendan Shanahan envisioned
May 26, 2021

When Brendan Shanahan was hired as president of the Maple Leafs in April of 2014 — some seven long years ago — he knew what he wanted his hockey team to become.

He wanted the Leafs to be, what he called, one of those teams. “The six or seven teams that have a chance to win the Stanley Cup every year.” He wanted things done his way — and no one believed his way would take this long. This is the fifth consecutive season in which the Leafs have been a decent to above-average NHL regular season team.

This is the first time, really, that they have the opportunity to be one of those six or seven teams with a chance. They are in the conversation. At the end of this playoff round, only eight teams will remain. The Leafs haven’t been one of the Elite Eight since before Shanahan helped change the rules, as a player, back in the lockout of 2005.

Shanahan never honestly believed it would take this long to get this far. He thought it might happen earlier. Now it’s time to take advantage of the opportunity. It’s time to make a long wait worthwhile.

SIMMONS: This is the Leafs team Brendan Shanahan envisioned | Toronto Sun

 

[Stephen]

Interesting point that the Boston series collapse in 2013 and the Montreal collapse of 2021 were both low point "high water mark" comparables.

The irony being that the Boston series the beginning of the end, and the scorched earth reset button pushed, and now their selling this Montreal collapse as just the end of the new beginning, and we're on the right track and just more patience is required, steady as she goes, 8 years later.

SIMMONS: This is the Leafs team Brendan Shanahan envisioned
May 26, 2021

When Brendan Shanahan was hired as president of the Maple Leafs in April of 2014 — some seven long years ago — he knew what he wanted his hockey team to become.

He wanted the Leafs to be, what he called, one of those teams. “The six or seven teams that have a chance to win the Stanley Cup every year.” He wanted things done his way — and no one believed his way would take this long. This is the fifth consecutive season in which the Leafs have been a decent to above-average NHL regular season team.

This is the first time, really, that they have the opportunity to be one of those six or seven teams with a chance. They are in the conversation. At the end of this playoff round, only eight teams will remain. The Leafs haven’t been one of the Elite Eight since before Shanahan helped change the rules, as a player, back in the lockout of 2005.

Shanahan never honestly believed it would take this long to get this far. He thought it might happen earlier. Now it’s time to take advantage of the opportunity. It’s time to make a long wait worthwhile.

SIMMONS: This is the Leafs team Brendan Shanahan envisioned | Toronto Sun

Looking back at the past 7 years, I suddenly realize that MLSE should have hired Lou Lamoriello to be the president (in Brendan Shanahan's role) and Brendan Shanahan should have been the rookie GM learning on the with Kyle Dubas as his assistant GM. You have your progressive voices building the team they want on a day to day basis but a veteran HHOF hockey mind to be the ultimate guard rails.

 

[Mess]

Looking back at the past 7 years, I suddenly realize that MLSE should have hired Lou Lamoriello to be the president (in Brendan Shanahan's role) and Brendan Shanahan should have been the rookie GM learning on the with Kyle Dubas as his assistant GM. You have your progressive voices building the team they want on a day to day basis but a veteran HHOF hockey mind to be the ultimate guard rails.

That is so true.

The Shanaplan now fully realized, has taken the franchise on the road to nowhere.

From the lockout shortened 48 games season & embarrassing 1st round collapse of 2013, to the pandemic shortened 56 game season & embarrassing 1st round collapse of 2021 = franchise distance traveled in 8 years = zero.

The more things change the more they stay the same, just endless wheel spinning with no measurable improvement in a results oriented business to measure success.

 

[Racer88]

Looking back at the past 7 years, I suddenly realize that MLSE should have hired Lou Lamoriello to be the president (in Brendan Shanahan's role) and Brendan Shanahan should have been the rookie GM learning on the with Kyle Dubas as his assistant GM. You have your progressive voices building the team they want on a day to day basis but a veteran HHOF hockey mind to be the ultimate guard rails.

Shanahan should be working in Home Depot and not hockey in any capacity