Will Atlanta Get Another Team?

[sexydonut]

Going by your logic, Atlanta should have never gotten a soccer team. And all those northerners in Atlanta are there because they hated hockey. And the pathetic white collar criminals who doubled as the Flames/Thrashers owners are omitted from your frame of reference.

Might as well say that Toronto should never have gotten a basketball team because its African-descended population were historically more inclined to play cricket.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

In what ways are 1960s Philadelphia similar geographically, climatically, demographically, economically and culturally similar to 2020s Atlanta that would lead you to make the comparison?

Point is just because you don't think Atlanta on surface doesn't show any interest in hockey doesn't mean it won't work with proper ownership.

 

[Stephen]

Point is just because you don't think Atlanta on surface doesn't show any interest in hockey doesn't mean it won't work with proper ownership.

If by proper ownership you mean someone who will build an arena and incur millions in losses until the right product is in place, sure, that's a foolproof formula. But if you have the right owner to underwrite any unprofitable venture I'm sure you can "succeed" anywhere.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

If by proper ownership you mean someone who will build an arena and incur millions in losses until the right product is in place, sure, that's a foolproof formula. But if you have the right owner to underwrite any unprofitable venture I'm sure you can "succeed" anywhere.

This post makes no sense.

 

[Stephen]

This post makes no sense.

What makes no sense is Atlanta re-joining the NHL for a third time under some newfangled ownership group that will underwrite the financial misadventure until Atlantans decide they actually like hockey.

Seriously, between the Flames and the Thrashers, there's been 20 years of Atlanta hockey. It wasn't a temporary blip.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

What makes no sense is Atlanta re-joining the NHL for a third time under some newfangled ownership group that will underwrite the financial misadventure until Atlantans decide they actually like hockey.

Seriously, between the Flames and the Thrashers, there's been 20 years of Atlanta hockey. It wasn't a temporary blip.

First of all, no one ever said Atlanta is going to be back in NHL.

You think markets like LA, San Jose, Dallas etc were enamored with hockey when they got a team?

Washington is on their 3rd MLB team. By your logic Nationals should never have existed.

 

[Stephen]

First of all, no one ever said Atlanta is going to be back in NHL.

You think markets like LA, San Jose, Dallas etc were enamored with hockey when they got a team?

Washington is on their 3rd MLB team. By your logic Nationals should never have existed.

Atlanta's had an NHL team for 20 years combined between the Flames and Thrashers and it never worked. What do LA, San Jose and Dallas have in common with Atlanta from an economic, cultural, climatic point of view anyway?

The Washington Nationals comparrison makes no sense. Selling baseball to Americans in the US Capitol seems a little bit more of a natural fit than trying to sell a winter sport to a city in Georgia with no cultural history of the sport.

Not even really sure why we are having this argument if you yourself don't think Atlanta should have a team again.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Atlanta's had an NHL team for 20 years combined between the Flames and Thrashers and it never worked. What do LA, San Jose and Dallas have in common with Atlanta from an economic, cultural, climatic point of view anyway?

The Washington Nationals comparrison makes no sense. Selling baseball to Americans in the US Capitol seems a little bit more of a natural fit than trying to sell a winter sport to a city in Georgia with no cultural history of the sport.

Not even really sure why we are having this argument if you yourself don't think Atlanta should have a team again.

1) Using natural fit argument is incredibly stupid when you look at some of the markets NHL is in today. And thriving in mind you.
2)I never said Atlanta should never have another team again either. Do I think Atlanta will get another team? Not really because I am not sure NHL will expand past 32.
3)LA, San Jose and Dallas have common in Atlanta in that none of them are in so called traditional markets, and none of them showed particular interest in hockey when they did get a team. So to suggest those are the reasons why Atlanta will NEVER work is intellectual laziness.

 

[BattleBorn]

I think you've got to value the more recent relocations more than the older ones. Teams were a lot more portable 25 years ago than they are now.

The Flames were never the lowest average attendance team in their history. It's not like it was a crazy failure, it was just a team that costed $6 million dollars and was portable.

Thrashers were the Trashers (which is to say not good) and were again, never the lowest attended team in the league. Funny enough, the highest team one of the Flames years (The Blues) was the lowest in one of the Trashers years, and has never moved. The Flames also outdrew the Hawks, Red Wings, and a Penguins a few years, a few more teams that haven't moved. Perhaps the ticket prices were lower and that supported the attendance, such as it was, and made for a tough business. However, there's some things that make me feel like Atlanta's past deserves a little more consideration than "it failed twice and a third time is crazy talk."

Someone picking up a team now for Atlanta for whatever it costs, say $550MM, it going to be a lot more serious than Mr. Cousins was picking up the Flames for $6MM ($36MM 2018 dollars) in 1972. Hell, he even made $10MM profit selling the team to Calgary, which is still only a sale price of $96.1MM in 2018 dollars.

 

[Fenway]

The Thrashers situation simply fell apart when Time-Warner bought AOL and TW had to unload the sports teams that Ted Turner cultivated. In retrospect, Bettman should have vetted ASG but it is safe to assume he talked to David Stern at the NBA about them.

In 2011 nobody knew the real truth about ASG and it wasn't until emails from the Atlanta Hawks surfaced that the Thrashers were attracting the affluent suburban crowd that the Hawks coveted. ASG was upset that the Hawks ( a NBA team ) were attracting black fans and scaring white fans away. ASG should have been hit harder than Donald Sterling was but that is another story.

The Flames demise in Atlanta can be traced to exactly 40 years when Edmonton was admitted to the NHL and the oil barons of Calgary needed a NHL team quick. If it hadn't been Atlanta it most likely would have been St. Louis. It is easy to blame John Ziegler for the missteps made in the late 70's into the early 90's but the NHL BoG was controlled by Dollar Bill Wirtz.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

That's a weird comment. But sure, let's give Atlanta another team and when no one shows up we can move it down to Mexico City. Because population size.

omg, someone went there. you wouldnt have a cousin named aqib, would you?

 

[Centrum Hockey]

First of all, no one ever said Atlanta is going to be back in NHL.

You think markets like LA, San Jose, Dallas etc were enamored with hockey when they got a team?

Washington is on their 3rd MLB team. By your logic Nationals should never have existed.

Calvin Griffith: The Ups and Downs of the last Family-Owned Baseball Team | Society for American Baseball Research
The original Washington Senators owners had similar views as the Atlanta sprit group

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

Sure, the NHL would place a team in Atlanta if some owner ponied up the expansion fee money. Then a couple of years later that owner would want to move the franchise due to poor attendance(revenue) IMO, there are few spots for NHL expansion or even MLB expansion. Just don't seem they are profitable toys to have.

 

[Fenway]

Calvin Griffith: The Ups and Downs of the last Family-Owned Baseball Team | Society for American Baseball Research
The original Washington Senators owners had similar views as the Atlanta sprit group

Griffith should have been given an expansion team in Minnesota and the Sens stay in DC especially with the new stadium being built.

The Atlanta Braves moving to the burbs 2 years ago was again about demographics. If a new arena for hockey was built where the baseball team is now it would do fine.

 

[MNNumbers]

Concerning Atlanta and hockey....

Many people say they should have another team. But, here's what it would take:

One of these 2 things happening:
a- A development/ownership group willing to sink 300-400M into an arena
b- The NBA ownership group wanting to sink maybe 200M in changes at Philips to reaccommodate hockey.
Quite clearly this is arena cost. I doubt there would be any public money for either of these, but you never know...

AND>>>>
Same ownership group willing to spend 500M on a relo or 650M+ on an expansion team.

If those 2 things appeared, I believe the chances would be high of another team. But, I don't like the chances of it happening. This is simply a monetary analysis. It's a huge hunk of change given the risk.

Someone will likely compare to Seattle. Seattle is a different situation. That arena will be the only one around, and the team will have a monopoly on the late winter sports scene. That alleviates the risk to a certain extent.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Neither were Philadelphia when they got a team.

St. Louis didn't even have an ownership group when it got awarded its NHL team.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

But what is the actual big picture concept of having an Atlanta franchise in the NHL? Fill a population center that doesn't care about the game because it has growth potential? Create a Southeast Division with teams like Carolina, Florida, Tampa, Washington, Columbus and a resurrected Atlanta? Feels like a very tired formula with no real marquee value.

I guess the alternative is to drop more teams hockey-mad markets and see how quickly it gets saturated, while ignoring a solid 1/2 of the population in North America. I'm sure that will help grow the game and make it more attractive to potential fans and help lay deeper roots that make the sport even stronger down the road.

I mean, imagine how deep the NHL talent pool would be if we just restricted it to Canada and a smattering of locations from the upper tier of U.S. states like it was in the 60s. I'm sure that would be a much better product than what we have today; at least then, it would be representative of the "true hockey fans" and not all the wanna-bes and overseas folks. I can just see the new slogan: The NHL - pretty much all Canada and few of you Americans, eh!

If by proper ownership you mean someone who will build an arena and incur millions in losses until the right product is in place, sure, that's a foolproof formula. But if you have the right owner to underwrite any unprofitable venture I'm sure you can "succeed" anywhere.

I'm pretty sure by this post you have no idea what a business plan looks like from the POV of a start-up operation.

Seriously, between the Flames and the Thrashers, there's been 20 years of Atlanta hockey. It wasn't a temporary blip.

It was eight (8) years of the Flames, and eleven (11) seasons of the Thrashers. And, not to mention, as the Flames were leaving Atlanta the North Stars were getting saved [the first time] by merging with the Barons [who had moved two seasons prior from Oakland], the Scouts had rolled out of Kansas City [after 2 years] to Denver and the newly-named Rockies were about to move to New Jersey [another no one has any interest in hockey there, why the hell are you moving a team there location], and there was this entire other pro hockey league going on that ... well, you've probably never heard of it, much less its negative financial impact on the NHL.

And, as has been mentioned numerous times now, the Thrashers were OK until Ted Turner sold to AOL/Time Warner who then sold the pro sports teams to ASG, who then imploded over who should really be in charge of decisions and the "winning" side ultimately decided to intentionally tank the team and chase away fans so as to get rid of it. And, surprise of surprises, the fans decided they weren't going to support shitty ownership that crapped all over them in public and expressed open disdain for the fans and the team and the sport.

But please, to a point you made earlier, explain how the economics and professional landscape in place in 1978-1980 that drove the Flames relocation [along with that of a few other teams] are similar to the dysfunctional ownership in place in 2006 that ended up driving the Thrashers relocation.

 

[oknazevad]

b- The NBA ownership group wanting to sink maybe 200M in changes at Philips to reaccommodate hockey.

I don't even think it would cost that much. For all the talk of the arena being renovated to improve the basketball experience, State Farm Arena's seating bowl was not actually altered in a way that makes it unable to properly host hockey (like Barclays or Talking Stick). Most of the seating bowl renovations were about breaking up the glass wall of suites to distribute them around the arena and allow for a full 360 seating experience for all price tiers. (It also allowed them to open up the concourses 360 as well.) the biggest thing a hockey team would need is a new locker room, as the Thrashers' former locker room was sacrificed for a new lounge area.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Doesn't feel like the cultural entity that Atlanta represents is clamoring for NHL hockey.

To repeat what @Bear of Bad News has said, go back and read the thread. Or, maybe explain to everyone else how much sense it really makes that fans put up with shitty, disrespectful ownership and plow money into the product anyway knowing that the owners are doing their finest to shit on the team in order to get rid of it and send it somewhere else.

 

[Fenway]

I guess the alternative is to drop more teams hockey-mad markets and see how quickly it gets saturated, while ignoring a solid 1/2 of the population in North America. I'm sure that will help grow the game and make it more attractive to potential fans and help lay deeper roots that make the sport even stronger down the road.

I mean, imagine how deep the NHL talent pool would be if we just restricted it to Canada and a smattering of locations from the upper tier of U.S. states like it was in the 60s. I'm sure that would be a much better product than what we have today; at least then, it would be representative of the "true hockey fans" and not all the wanna-bes and overseas folks. I can just see the new slogan: The NHL - pretty much all Canada and few of you Americans, eh!


I'm pretty sure by this post you have no idea what a business plan looks like from the POV of a start-up operation.


It was eight (8) years of the Flames, and eleven (11) seasons of the Thrashers. And, not to mention, as the Flames were leaving Atlanta the North Stars were getting saved [the first time] by merging with the Barons [who had moved two seasons prior from Oakland], the Scouts had rolled out of Kansas City [after 2 years] to Denver and the newly-named Rockies were about to move to New Jersey [another no one has any interest in hockey there, why the hell are you moving a team there location], and there was this entire other pro hockey league going on that ... well, you've probably never heard of it, much less its negative financial impact on the NHL.

And, as has been mentioned numerous times now, the Thrashers were OK until Ted Turner sold to AOL/Time Warner who then sold the pro sports teams to ASG, who then imploded over who should really be in charge of decisions and the "winning" side ultimately decided to intentionally tank the team and chase away fans so as to get rid of it. And, surprise of surprises, the fans decided they weren't going to support ****ty ownership that crapped all over them in public and expressed open disdain for the fans and the team and the sport.

But please, to a point you made earlier, explain how the economics and professional landscape in place in 1978-1980 that drove the Flames relocation [along with that of a few other teams] are similar to the dysfunctional ownership in place in 2006 that ended up driving the Thrashers relocation.

If somebody came along and built a NHL spec arena in Cobb County - would it work????

5 years from now the owners of the Panthers and Hurricanes will be looking hard at Atlanta

 

[Centrum Hockey]

If somebody came along and built a NHL spec arena in Cobb County - would it work????

5 years from now the owners of the Panthers and Hurricanes will be looking hard at Atlanta

Why did the panthers go to sunrise instead of downtown Miami like the heat is the American Airlines Arena hockey compatible if viola wanted to move downtown

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If somebody came along and built a NHL spec arena in Cobb County - would it work????

5 years from now the owners of the Panthers and Hurricanes will be looking hard at Atlanta

It all comes down to stable ownership that fans can back. They clearly won't do the ASG train wreck again, not should they or anyone else have to. Having competent management [something else missing in the last half of the Thrashers stint] wouldn't hurt either, but that was hand-in-hand with ownership dropping manure on the fans regularly.

 

[aqib]

omg, someone went there. you wouldnt have a cousin named aqib, would you?

I do have a cousin in Atlanta...

 

[Tawnos]

Why did the panthers go to sunrise instead of downtown Miami like the heat is the American Airlines Arena hockey compatible if viola wanted to move downtown

Well, it’s about the unique geography of the south Florida market. Every other major metro area essentially radiates from the biggest city in multiple directions. For example, the suburbs of NYC lie east to Long Island, north and northeast to the Hudson Valley and Connecticut, and west and southwest to New Jersey. In South Florida, there’s basically nothing to the west, south or east of Miami. I can’t think of another metro area in the US that fits the same geographical restriction. Everything is north. Going north, Miami-Dade County has about 2.8 million people or so. Broward, where Sunrise is, has about 2 million people. Palm Beach has 1.5 million. So the idea was, in certain ways, the same as putting it downtown in another metro area. You’re putting the arena where is equally accessible, from a geographic point of view, to the whole market.

I think it was a mistake, because Miami-Dade is big enough by itself to support an NHL team, but I get it.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Atlanta got screwed, the Thrashers were actually doing very well before those Pejorative Slurs bought the team and pretty much sabotaged it. So yes Atlanta should get another chance at the NHL, in fact, Atlanta should get as many chances as need. The NHL can not let such a large market go without a team.