Why the Maple Leafs Bought Out Grabovski

[Cor]

Oh my god. Stop. Just stop.

They are already PPG players, how much do you expect that to go up?

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

Are you kidding me?

First of all, Getzlaf turns Kessel into a guaranteed 40 goalscorer. Potentially 50.

Secondly, if Carlyle has a line of JVR - Getzlaf - Kessel, he's matching them up HARD against the opposition's top line. Instantly, they would be burying the other team in their own zone. The scoring would go up, the goals against would go down.

And that would liberate the other lines to play easier matchups, thus more scoring from our depth, and again, less Goals Against.

We'd probably average an additional team GF and one less GA over the course of the season.

 

[The Legend]

If someone insults your wife, do they not insult you?

And if someone who gets fired, insults your co-worker, more specifically your boss, you wouldn't be upset? I doubt that,

So when Carlyle calls out his players, he too is insulting the organization?

I think you need some more work with the definition of "example".

 

[The Legend]

Oh my god dude you're out to lunch. Mailed in your credibility with the Bozak > Bolland comment.

That's possibly the most insane thing I've heard on HF. That's an accomplishment.

No no. Linking Grabovski's regret to a murderer's regret is still the standard.

 

[Cor]

Carlyle would never match top line against top line first of all.

Second of all, Kessel has scored 36 goals with Bozak before, he's on pace for 45 goals right now.

Do you think that would go up from Bozak to Getzlaf?

Kessel/JVR don't need a center like Getzlaf to be effective. Thinking they would do any better, is like thinking the Sens would be better because they have Karlsson and Spezza this season. It's not how it works

 

[ULF_55]

If someone insults your wife, do they not insult you?

And if someone who gets fired, insults your co-worker, more specifically your boss, you wouldn't be upset? I doubt that,

What is an insult?

If you wife is 5'1", and someone said she was short is that an insult?

You chose your wife, you often have little choice over a boss.

Additionally, unless you haven't had very many bosses, odds are you've had a bad one. If your boss is a turd he's a turd whether you say it or not.

 

[Cor]

So when Carlyle calls out his players, he too is insulting the organization?

I think you need some more work with the definition of "example".

Not really, that is like your boss giving you **** for something, completely different. I think it is you who needs some more work

No no. Linking Grabovski's regret to a murderer's regret is still the standard.

Like I said, if you want to take that from it, then go ahead. Again, the message intended was;

Just because you are sorry, doesn't mean what you did wasn't bad.

I used an exaggerated example, because you guys seem to like to exaggerate everything

 

[Goonface2k14]

Carlyle has said that just because Bozak plays with Kessel, doesn't mean he is our #1 center. Best winger, doesn't need to play with our best winger. I would probably bet money that Carlyle doesn't use the terms "first line, second line... third.... fourth etc.

He isn't the one who carries the puck into the offensive zone... not sure how that makes him a bad hockey player? He can, and he has before, but Kessel, JVR, Phaneuf, Gardiner, Rielly, are much more effective at doing it, so I'd rather them do it, then Bozak just so he appeases you guys.

Getzlaf is a much better player then Bozak, didn't say that. But put in Getzlaf instead of Bozak, and Kessel's and JVR's production doesn't go up much, if at all.

Bozak plays with Kessel. Kessel is the best offensive talent the Leafs have. Regardless of what you call the line, it's a pretty important role.

Not being able to carry the puck into the offensive zone probably does mean you're a bad hockey player. At the very least, it certainly means you're not suited to play with the best forwards on the team, and if you're being used in that role, it's because the team has no other options. Nothing to do with appeasing those who share my perspective, and everything to do with simply not cutting it.

If you think Phil, James and/or Joffrey's production doesn't change with a world class talent like Ryan Getzlaf instead of Bozak, you've got some pretty big blinders on. Good players make players around them even better. The ice opens up. The play goes even faster. It's a no brainer. Kessel, JVR and Lupul do this for Bozak, and certainly not the other way around.

 

[Cor]

What is an insult?

If you wife is 5'1", and someone said she was short is that an insult?

You chose your wife, you often have little choice over a boss.

Additionally, unless you haven't had very many bosses, odds are you've had a bad one. If your boss is a turd he's a turd whether you say it or not.

If someone calls your wife an ugly *****, you probably should be offended.

Again, it's not about who they are bashing. You guys are in the same company, same organization, you should care.

At the end of the day, if it was Tyler Bozak who bashed Randy Carlyle, you guys would all be pissed off, even if he said he was sorry.

 

[Cor]

Bozak plays with Kessel. Kessel is the best offensive talent the Leafs have. Regardless of what you call the line, it's a pretty important role.

Not being able to carry the puck into the offensive zone probably does mean you're a bad hockey player. At the very least, it certainly means you're not suited to play with the best forwards on the team, and if you're being used in that role, it's because the team has no other options. Nothing to do with appeasing those who share my perspective, and everything to do with simply not cutting it.

If you think Phil, James and/or Joffrey's production doesn't change with a world class talent like Ryan Getzlaf instead of Bozak, you've got some pretty big blinders on. Good players make players around them even better. The ice opens up. The play goes even faster. It's a no brainer. Kessel, JVR and Lupul do this for Bozak, and certainly not the other way around.

Okay, then why aren't the Sens a better team with Karlsson and Spezza?

To the first part, Bozak can carry a puck into the offensive zone. He rarely does because both his wingers and often a D-man, can do it more effectively. There is a difference between not doing it, and can't do it

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

Are you seriously trying to say, if we could trade Getzlaf 1 for 1 for Bozak, you don't think that would be worth doing? Hypothetically, he HAD to play with JVR and Phil.

You don't see how that would benefit the Leafs?

Okay kid.

Again, out to lunch.

 

[Cor]

Of course you do it. However, Phil and JVR's point totals wouldn't go up.

But, thanks for attempting to put words in my mouth. Not sure if that is a strategy, or if you are just misunderstanding.

Okay kid,

You are out to lunch

 

[ULF_55]

If someone calls your wife an ugly *****, you probably should be offended.

Again, it's not about who they are bashing. You guys are in the same company, same organization, you should care.

At the end of the day, if it was Tyler Bozak who bashed Randy Carlyle, you guys would all be pissed off, even if he said he was sorry.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. And one should keep their mouths shut about that sort of stuff. But being married is nothing like being employed by a corporation. Same way that having a pet dog is nothing like being a parent, although some idiots have said to me it was! When is the last time a pet owner worried about their offspring being out late driving in a blizzard?


I think what you are suggesting is being a company "yes-man" is appreciated by some folk, and not so much by other folk.

We do know that Carlyle does make mistakes, he's admitted it.

I'm sure he's made more than one and will make more in the future.

When a coach benches a player he's calling him out publicly. He doesn't have to go to the media and say anything because he's doing it in front of the world. I really don't see a big difference of a coach benching a player and a player tossing grenades at a coach (metaphorically).

You don't throw those grenades while he still controls your fate, as coaches are human and odds are they'll remind you of your wife who remembers something from 20 years earlier when it is convenient!

 

[Cor]

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. And one should keep their mouths shut about that sort of stuff. But being married is nothing like being employed by a corporation. Same way that having a pet dog is nothing like being a parent, although some idiots have said to me it was! When is the last time a pet owner worried about their offspring being out late driving in a blizzard?


I think what you are suggesting is being a company "yes-man" is appreciated by some folk, and not so much by other folk.

We do know that Carlyle does make mistakes, he's admitted it.

I'm sure he's made more than one and will make more in the future.

When a coach benches a player he's calling him out publicly. He doesn't have to go to the media and say anything because he's doing it in front of the world. I really don't see a big difference of a coach benching a player and a player tossing grenades at a coach (metaphorically).

You don't throw those grenades while he still controls your fate, as coaches are human and odds are they'll remind you of your wife who remembers something from 20 years earlier when it is convenient!

I'm not sure where this discussion even came from

Grabovski bashed Carlyle, and indirectly, bashed the Leafs organization.

If people don't think that bashing a Head Coach of an organization isn't bashing the organization... I mean not much I can do.

 

[happyaccident]

What a crock, nice try Nonis. When you have talent combined with grit, you just make it fit. Like all the office doors were widened so the 2 donut divers could fit though them. How does a team possibly improve by shedding talent and speed. Unless it's a conscious effort to creat a slower, less skilled team, which is what they look like this season.
Done for cap space. lol. You're paying 4M for a dman who hasn't played a single game and you're paying 9.45M long-term for 2 guys who don't even know how to pass or take a pass. Sure thing.

 

[Goonface2k14]

Okay, then why aren't the Sens a better team with Karlsson and Spezza?

To the first part, Bozak can carry a puck into the offensive zone. He rarely does because both his wingers and often a D-man, can do it more effectively. There is a difference between not doing it, and can't do it

And to your reply - of course the Sens are better with Karlsson and Spezza. It's a team sport - their team drop in the standings this year has a lot more to do with other issues aside from Karlsson/Spezza in or out of their lineup. Perhaps their depth is an issue? Perhaps the shortened season last year benefited them? I think they were overrated last year, because of the shortened season, and then they got away with some really hot goaltending from Anderson. It's a weak and baseless comparison.

And if Bozak could carry the puck into the o-zone effectively, he would do it more often. Instead, his inability is masked by the fact that, according to you, other guys on the ice do it instead. That doesn't take away from the fact that he is not good at it, and that the Leafs would be better off if he could do it well. Saying that he can do it, but doesn't do it because others do it instead makes no sense.

 

[ULF_55]

I'm not sure where this discussion even came from

Grabovski bashed Carlyle, and indirectly, bashed the Leafs organization.

If people don't think that bashing a Head Coach of an organization isn't bashing the organization... I mean not much I can do.

You realize Carlyle will be fired ... very few coaches leave on their own volition.

I wouldn't consider that to be bashing of the organization, and firing is the ultimate insult. It's saying you're a failure but does it mean the organization is a failure?

Anyway, we know that Carlyle and Grabovski didn't have a good relationship, so he's gone. Whether Carlyle knew or didn't know could be up for debate, but Grabovski was open about their relationship so we know it wasn't good.

 

[Cor]

You realize Carlyle will be fired ... very few coaches leave on their own volition.

I wouldn't consider that to be bashing of the organization, and firing is the ultimate insult. It's saying you're a failure but does it mean the organization is a failure?

Anyway, we know that Carlyle and Grabovski didn't have a good relationship, so he's gone. Whether Carlyle knew or didn't know could be up for debate, but Grabovski was open about their relationship so we know it wasn't good.

I can see where you are coming from, but too me, when you bash management of a team, you are bashing the team

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Lupul and Carlyle apparently rammed horns in Anaheim.

Good work ethic turned that around pretty quick

 

[Mowerman]

Bozak plays with Kessel. Kessel is the best offensive talent the Leafs have. Regardless of what you call the line, it's a pretty important role.

Not being able to carry the puck into the offensive zone probably does mean you're a bad hockey player. At the very least, it certainly means you're not suited to play with the best forwards on the team, and if you're being used in that role, it's because the team has no other options. Nothing to do with appeasing those who share my perspective, and everything to do with simply not cutting it.

If you think Phil, James and/or Joffrey's production doesn't change with a world class talent like Ryan Getzlaf instead of Bozak, you've got some pretty big blinders on. Good players make players around them even better. The ice opens up. The play goes even faster. It's a no brainer. Kessel, JVR and Lupul do this for Bozak, and certainly not the other way around.

The top line would be better with an established, elite first line centre compared to Bozak. Ok, congratulations for being right I guess? I can't imagine there is anybody who would disagree with that.

What I don't buy into are your comments on Bozak. Bozak does not have to carry the puck up the ice. Using that metric to write him off as a bad player who can't play on the first line with Kessel & JVR or Lupul is where I disagree. He isn't the ideal fit for the role. I'm not arguing with that because it's simply correct. But this doesn't mean he isn't effective. Bozak understands that Kessel or JVR want to carry the puck into the offensive zone and generate offensive pressure from the wing. That is Kessel's bread and butter. It doesn't matter if Bozak can't do it because the main offensive threat on the line doesn't want him to. It works and it produces points. Whether or not it would work better with another player is a hypothetical and that hypothetical needs to be limited to realistic options for the Leafs at centre to have much worth in judging the worth of Bozak imo. What does Getzlaf have to do with anything?

Would the line probably work better with Getzlaf on it? Yes. Getzlaf is also not available. Who out of the available centres would work better? The potential crop of first line centres that can fill the role that you are using as a metric for Bozak's effectiveness are not particularly enticing.

I'm assuming this is where Grabovski comes into play. Yes, Grabovski is good at generating possession and carrying the puck into the offensive zone. The trouble is Phil Kessel is much, much better at it. What good is it to bring Grabovski in to do it when Kessel wants to do it and much of his bread and butter comes from the approach of letting him do it? Does that improve anything? I don't think it does. The question then becomes what does Bozak do well? He wins faceoffs & takes care of the defensive/positional responsibilities that is required of a centre and does it against top competition. He provides enough of an offensive touch to be effective and understands that his offensive touch is mostly along the lines of just getting the puck to the elite guys that do have an offensive touch. He does this and understands a role he can fill within the line in order for the line to be successful. Other options (such as Grabovski) have not.

You can disagree with me, that's fine. You are also disagreeing with two head coaches, probably the largest and highest paid management team in hockey and the scouts for the Leafs. Pretty much everyone I listed there had input into the decision to cut Grabovski loose and put their chips in with Bozak & the extra cap space. Their conclusions towards what is the best option to make the team better line up with mine and I take more comfort in that than any cherry picked stats that give a slight edge to Grabovski over a ridiculously minuscule sample size. His play this year doesn't really change anything either considering the role Washington is using him in and his lack of consistency.


I don't really understand why people make such a big deal about Grabovski's comments either. They weren't very professional or very intelligent but I don't think that is too big of a blight on the character of Grabovski or a significant slight towards the organization. I think it's a mixture of frustration due to a perceived lack of opportunity (which in a sense is true, although what is overlooked there is the reason for the lack of opportunity to be utilized in an offensive setting) and a pretty significant shift in his life.

If you were happily settled in a city you call home, had just started a new family, etc etc and all of a sudden were forced to uproot everything and move due to something completely out of your control would you handle it well? It's the business but that doesn't make it any easier for somebody really experiencing it for the first time. Dude put his heart into playing for the Leafs and signed a big, long contract. Got quickly bumped out of the role he succeeds in and just as quickly told "you have more value being paid not to be here than to be here". That probably stung quite a bit and with his personality it's not really a surprise he would have such a reaction. I'm sure he regrets publicly voicing his frustration in such a manner though regardless of how he feels about Carlyle or anyone else in Leafs management. I'd value the body of work he put in as a player both on and off the ice over that little public airing of frustration and disappointment. It ultimately came from his desire to want to be here and be successful here.

I seem to have created a wall. Sorry about that, pretty bored.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This hasn't been posted here yet, exerpt from a similar themed National Post article from Grabovski:

Why Mikhail Grabovski has no reason to be angry with the Maple Leafs
Michael Traikos | 22/11/13

TORONTO — Bitter? Mikhail Grabovski’s agent let out a laugh.

All that stuff that happened with his client four months ago — being bought out of his contract and then calling head coach Randy Carlyle an “idiot” for misusing him in a defensive role — is in the past. Today, Grabovski has no reason to be mad at his former team. In fact, according to agent Gary Greenstin, Grabovski should thank the Toronto Maple Leafs.

“I don’t think we produce like checking hockey here,” Grabovski said in an interview with The Canadian Press this week at the team’s practice facility near Washington. “It’s more offensive smart hockey than we play in Toronto, completely different style of the hockey.”

Maybe the Leafs posted this on the chalkboard last night, but given the Leafs we're 6th in GF last season, goals were not a problem, it sounds Grabovski dissed the Leafs and coach again.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013...s-no-reason-to-be-angry-with-the-maple-leafs/

 

[thewave]

This hasn't been posted here yet, exerpt from a similar themed National Post article from Grabovski:

Why Mikhail Grabovski has no reason to be angry with the Maple Leafs
Michael Traikos | 22/11/13





Maybe the Leafs posted this on the chalkboard last night, but given the Leafs we're 6th in GF last season, goals were not a problem, it sounds Grabovski dissed the Leafs and coach again.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013...s-no-reason-to-be-angry-with-the-maple-leafs/

What's the "dis"? He is playing well this year, plays through pain etc same OLD Grabo.

You are making something out of nothing.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What's the "dis"? He is playing well this year, plays through pain etc same OLD Grabo.

You are making something out of nothing.

He basically inferred Washington plays smarter hockey than The Leafs. Or at least smarter offensively. If you are a player in the Leafs dressing room, do you think that is a diss or a compliment?

 

[thewave]

He basically inferred Washington plays smarter hockey than The Leafs. Or at least smarter offensively. If you are a player in the Leafs dressing room, do you think that is a diss or a compliment?

He just means an optertunistic offensively minded game. It's nothing and not an insult. Smart offense, they got 50 shots and lost so take that however.

 

[Mowerman]

He just means an optertunistic offensively minded game. It's nothing and not an insult. Smart offense, they got 50 shots and lost so take that however.

To the bolded: Washington or Toronto? If you take it that way I'm assuming you are taking it to mean Grabovski implied Toronto doesn't play that way. Which is, sort of, how Toronto plays. So he's still not coming off well.