Why did Quebec not get a team?

[voyageur]

I mean, last season Winnipeg, with the smallest arena in the league, didn't sell out. Unfortunately, Quebec doesn't have the corporate base of other contending marketplaces. It sucks but basically the entire lower bowl of the Penguin games and all of the boxes (obviously) are filled with corporate sheep. The "real fans" were priced out of hockey when the game transitioned from strong niche sport to "big 4" in the late 90's early 2000's. My uncle was paying 20$ a game in 1992 for a level A seat and it was 120$ a ticket in 2000 --- those levels of inflation don't exist (well, they haven't for a while) in the everyday marketplace. (btw, that equivalent ticket is now 300 bucks).

In 1988, my uncle paid 10$ a ticket. Think about THAT. His first season he paid about 800 for tickets and his last season -- just ten years later -- he paid $7,790 ! (95$ a ticket). Btw, a dollar in 1988 was worth 1.38 in 1998 so, if his tickets had merely kept up with inflation, he should have been spending roughly $1,132 for his tickets in 1998. Instead, 1 NHL dollar in 1988 was worth 9.74 NHL dollars in 1998

This is a great post. I can say that I remember taking my younger brother to hockey games in Winnipeg and the upper deck tickets were no more than $30 for a pair.

But you hit a critical point. 1988 there was only 2 players in the league making over a million dollars per year. Gretzky and Lemieux.

Working class, beer drinking, rowdy fans could fill the rinks. Which is why the Nordiques outdrew the Bruins the 80s.

With Bettman the landscape changed. New arenas started popping up, with more luxury suites. Anaheim, San Jose, St. Louis, Boston, Chicago, Philly, Buffalo, Tampa. They became the model for every other team in the league to follow, as a source of greater revenue, and those teams with old character rinks, had to adapt, or relocate (Winnipeg, Minnesota, Hartford, Quebec).

The Canadian dollar was no longer used to pay players in Canada.

And more importantly the big players (owners) in the league started investing in players to win, and salaries skyrocketed, and subsequently ticket prices did too, and they kept rising to a point where blue collar workers were no longer the targeted audience.

 

[Richard]

This is a great post. I can say that I remember taking my younger brother to hockey games in Winnipeg and the upper deck tickets were no more than $30 for a pair.

But you hit a critical point. 1988 there was only 2 players in the league making over a million dollars per year. Gretzky and Lemieux.

Working class, beer drinking, rowdy fans could fill the rinks. Which is why the Nordiques outdrew the Bruins the 80s.

With Bettman the landscape changed. New arenas started popping up, with more luxury suites. Anaheim, San Jose, St. Louis, Boston, Chicago, Philly, Buffalo, Tampa. They became the model for every other team in the league to follow, as a source of greater revenue, and those teams with old character rinks, had to adapt, or relocate (Winnipeg, Minnesota, Hartford, Quebec).

The Canadian dollar was no longer used to pay players in Canada.

And more importantly the big players (owners) in the league started investing in players to win, and salaries skyrocketed, and subsequently ticket prices did too, and they kept rising to a point where blue collar workers were no longer the targeted audience.

Exactly right -- my uncle purchased season tickets after the Penguins signed Mario to a one-year 2M contract. Then kept them when they signed Mario to like a 12M five year deal or something. HUGE money then - nothing now.

From 1988-1994 the average fan was priced out of NHL sporting events.

Baseball and Football have larger seating capacities, but both have run out of "real" fans in the last two decades, I'd argue that the NHL just reached that dubious distinction first.

Unless you have strong corporate support it doesn't matter.

 

[NotAVacuumSalesman]

“Why did Quebec not get a team?”

Montreal is Quebec’s team. Sorry bro

 

[Bradely]

NHL is banking on the Canadien revenu to develop the US sun belt.
If they can reproduce what they did in Florida it can work.....
NHL would never have done what they did in Arizona up north.
All those fans currently saying bla bla bla on Canadian dollar etc...hockey is still currently more popular in Canada than USA... despite 350M population versus 35M. Il might change, probably will change in the futur but not now.!!!

 

[voyageur]

“Why did Quebec not get a team?”

Montreal is Quebec’s team. Sorry bro

That's kind of like saying that L..A is California's team, and there should have never been a team in San Jose or Anaheim. Or the Rangers are New York's team, why go to Buffalo? Or Long Island?

Realistically Hamilton and QC could support teams. Because the market of hockey fans in the region is enough to sustain them.

But we know what the objective is. Daly stated it. 25 U.S teams. 32 team league. vs. 29/30, 29/30, 32/32 and whatever the MLS numbers are (I know Canada has 3 teams). It's marketing.

 

[LiseL]

As someone who lives within 45 mins of Hamilton that would be fantastic. But I would never become a fan of the team, I will still be a Leafs fan. The Sens, Buffalo hell even Montreal whine Leaf fans overtake their arena. Any team in Hamilton will be way way worse. They will struggle to have a legit fanbase for just them without being the second team because southern Ontario. But if the logistics work bring it on. There are thousands of Leafs fans dying for affordable NHL hockey.


Some respectable names with decent careers but no superstars either. The times they are a changin

I don't know about that. Before the Sens came to Ottawa, everyone in my family was a Habs fan. My brother-in-laws family were all Leaf fans. All but one are now Sens fans. Many allegiances will change once you have your own team, especially their children.

 

[Viqsi]

That's kind of like saying that L..A is California's team, and there should have never been a team in San Jose or Anaheim.

Don't be absurd. If you want to bring California into it, then it's more akin to saying Toronto is Canada's team, and there's no reason for any of the others. Quebec might be #2 in population in Canada but wouldn't make the US's top ten.

Y'all are small. Deal with it.

 

[voyageur]

Don't be absurd. If you want to bring California into it, then it's more akin to saying Toronto is Canada's team, and there's no reason for any of the others. Quebec might be #2 in population in Canada but wouldn't make the US's top ten.

Y'all are small. Deal with it.

Just remember where it started, with a team in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec when you are looking up to us, while talking down. Hockey's roots, that have grown to your neighbourhood.

 

[Viqsi]

Just remember where it started, with a team in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec when you are looking up to us, while talking down. Hockey's roots, that have grown to your neighbourhood.

The only thing I have against Canada and Canadian hockey is the number of folks who are snotty and insufferable about hockey in general and who deeply resent the growth of the game that has allowed people like me to appreciate it.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Why did Quebec not get a team?

They did.

Also this:

Quebec City had a smaller population compared to other cities with NHL teams, which resulted in lower attendance and revenue for the Nordiques. Another contributing factor could be the marketing mismanagement by the team owners, as they failed to effectively promote the team and engage the local community.

 

[dukeofjive]

I wish quebec and hartford gets team again for those sweet sweet jerseys.

 

[voyageur]

The only thing I have against Canada and Canadian hockey is the number of folks who are snotty and insufferable about hockey in general and who deeply resent the growth of the game that has allowed people like me to appreciate it.

From the time it started it had to grow to succeed.

Boston is celebrating their centennial this season. Chicago and Detroit are 2 years away. The Rangers started the year after those 2, and outlasted the Americans, who came from Hamilton via Quebec, 2 years earlier.

There is a distinction between hockey being a fabric of your culture, and hockey being a recreational interest. Some people get it, some people don't. Realistically if there are more hockey fans in Quebec than there are in San Jose or Anaheim, with a greater capacity in their arena, hockey should succeed there. Populations only matter relative to the product being sold. But it's a business more than ever, and the end game is to create new fans, and go with the flow of money.

We live in a disrespectful era, so it's hard to find common ground. But if you like hockey, you're cool with me.

 

[Viqsi]

From the time it started it had to grow to succeed.

Boston is celebrating their centennial this season. Chicago and Detroit are 2 years aways. The Rangers started the next year, and outlasted the Americans, who came from Hamilton via Quebec, 2 years earlier.

There is a distinction between hockey being a fabric of your culture, and hockey being a recreational interest. Some people get it, some people don't. Realistically if there are more hockey fans in Quebec than there are in San Jose or Anaheim, with a greater capacity in their arena, hockey should succeed there. Populations only matter relative to the product being sold. But it's a business more than ever, and the end game is to create new fans, and go with the flow of money.

We live in a disrespectful era, so it's hard to find common ground. But if you like hockey, your cool with me.

I think the populations matter simply because a larger number of people makes it that much easier to have a group for whom hockey is a fabric of their culture. Not everybody here in Columbus is a Buckeyes fan or even cares at all about football, for example, and I know plenty of Canadians who are indifferent or even annoyed when I bring up hockey talk. It's always a subset, and what matters is the size of the subset IMO.

But otherwise, yeah, sure.

 

[ORRFForever]

“Why did Quebec not get a team?”

Montreal is Quebec’s team. Sorry bro

No, they are not but if the Montreal owner kicks up a fuss, he is being a prick and hurting Canadian hockey.

The only thing I have against Canada and Canadian hockey is the number of folks who are snotty and insufferable about hockey in general and who deeply resent the growth of the game that has allowed people like me to appreciate it.

The only thing I have against the U.S. and U.S. hockey is the number of folks who are snotty and insufferable about hockey in general and who deeply resent Canada and the amount of money Canadians pour into this game that allowed the growth of the game and people like you to appreciate it.

As I have said MANY times, keep Canadian money (T.V., merch, tickets, advertising dollars) IN Canada.
Expand in the U.S. on your own nickel.

 

[Viqsi]

The only thing I have against the U.S. and U.S. hockey is the number of folks who are snotty and insufferable about hockey in general and who deeply resent Canada and the amount of money Canadians pour into this game that allowed the growth of the game and people like you to appreciate it.

I'd be a lot more empathetic to that perspective if I hadn't seen folks literally openly celebrating tragedies that befall my team out of the hope of getting said team taken away from here. On multiple occasions.

 

[ORRFForever]

I'd be a lot more empathetic to that perspective if I hadn't seen folks literally openly celebrating tragedies that befall my team out of the hope of getting said team taken away from here. On multiple occasions.

^^ That's fair. ^^

In their defense, it is Bettman who plays fans off against each other.

 

[ORRFForever]

Expand to Quebec City and put as much time, money and effort into keeping the Nordiques alive as you did with the Coyotes.

 

[Bradely]

Why did Quebec not get a team?

They did.

Also this:

Quebec City had a smaller population compared to other cities with NHL teams, which resulted in lower attendance and revenue for the Nordiques. Another contributing factor could be the marketing mismanagement by the team owners, as they failed to effectively promote the team and engage the local community.

?. Oh boy!
Is Harold Ballard behind this avatar!

 

[Bradely]

The departure of the Nordiques is directly linked to the government's refusal to finance an arena as requested by Marcel Aubut, to the size of the market and the growth of the NHL and therefore the new realities of the NHL.

However, the economic situation in Quebec is currently different now than it was in 1995; Quebec City maintains a false reputation on the economic level. It's a French link, but tells alot for those interested.

Québec, star de l’économie canadienne

De 2001 à 2019, l’agglomération de Québec a connu la plus forte croissance économique parmi les 11 plus grandes régions métropolitaines du Canada

nouvelles.ulaval.ca

Concerning TV rights, it seems true that the TV contracts of Canadian teams might make it possible to consider that each Canadian team brings more revenue to the NHL, because there are only 7 clubs compared to the 24 American ones.,but in absolute terms, the facts might perhaps be different:

Droits de diffusion des matchs de la LNH | Une équipe canadienne est deux fois plus payante

À une semaine d’intervalle, la LNH et la NFL viennent de signer de nouvelles ententes de droits télé aux États-Unis. Reine des droits télé, la NFL ira chercher 10 milliards US par année pendant 11 ans. La LNH, quatrième ligue de sport en Amérique du Nord, devrait obtenir jusqu’à 550 millions US...

www.lapresse.ca

However, on a pure business developmental basis, the Canadian TV contract market is unlikely to grow in a more significant way USA TV contract might do, with or without additional clubs. While the American market has infinitely greater potential.

In my analysis, the NHL is now a USA league, managed and developed by Americans. Canadian influence is fading. Whether we like it or not, in my opinion it is an irreversible process, and in my opinion, 5 Canadian clubs are likely to represent us within 10 or 20 years, possibly the Oilers and Flames, but more certainly , Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver
Like if or not, who said life was fair..... welcome in the real world, it ain't!!!

I don't think they will be back

 

[LeafsNet]

Yeah I don’t see a team ever coming back to Quebec City, and it has nothing really to do with the market size as much as it has to do with competing with small market cities and towns desperate for a pro sports team.

Competing to the point where they will fund stadiums and arenas with 100% public funds. The US is littered with places like this….Oklahoma City, Sacramento, Atlanta, Utah, Kansas City and list goes on and on and on. These are cities that are willing and HAVE build sports stadiums/arenas with 100% public funding.

Quebec City can’t compete with that and nor should it. Look how the St. Louis Rams, San Diego Chargers, Oakland Raiders and Houston Oilers were screwed over. Seattle Sonics in the NBA is probably the best example of this sort of nonsense.

The NFL and NBA actively encourage owners to blackmail cities and use other cities as leverage and there’s no shortage of cities in the US that are willing to make a deal with the devil.

QC can’t compete with that. Unless the league itself decides we want to make things right.

KC and Houston all seem like they’re in line to get a team since they’re literally begging the NHL to come set up shop.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Merely noting that the League doesn't "put" franchises anywhere, but merely reviews applications submitted by hopeful owners and determines if they have a stadium and their $1B+ check will clear. If an owner group in Tijuana were able to check off all the boxes on the application (including a stadium deal) and their check for $1B+ will clear, then Tijuana would get a franchise.

Also not sure why folks can't understand that all the financial risk is on the owners and investors, not the League. The NHL is a taker, not a giver. The NHL does not invest in new franchises, but rather takes the expansion fee for selling a new franchise. If a new franchise flops, the NHL might have to expend some resources to clean up the mess, but that's nothing like the $1B+ they got for the expansion fee -- the NHL still comes out well ahead and might even additionally profit from the deal through relocation fees. It's an easy win-win for the NHL, but a "maybe win, maybe lose" for investors.

Part of the economics for owners is that once they are in, they will also get a share of future expansion and relocation fees. Because they are getting essentially "free money" from the expansion fees, the existing owners naturally want to expand as rapidly as the market for new franchises will permit.

The problem that the NHL has is convincing potential new owners and investors that at a $1B+ price point, buying a franchise is a good business deal. It took Bill Foley here in Vegas six years before he was able to finally make a profit distribution to his investor group, and he only paid a $500M expansion fee which looks cheap today. Who wants to wait six years before they get a return on their investment? So, the universe of realistic potential new owners is probably a lot smaller than folks would like to believe and likely limited to only the biggest markets where the projected numbers are probably easier to pencil out.

 

[ORRFForever]

QC can’t compete with that.

Keep Canadian money IN Canada and QC can compete. It's U.S. teams that can't compete without those Canadian dollars.

 

[ORRFForever]

American fans always talk about the financial bonanza that is the U.S.. Fine. Take that "massive" U.S. TV contract and split it 25 ways. In fact, take ALL U.S. revenue and split it 25 ways. While, at the same time, leave the tiny Canadian TV contract and CDN revenue income and for Canadian teams.

After all, if the U.S. market is as lucrative as you say, why wouldn't you want to keep it all for yourselves?

Don't pretend like you are doing us Canadians a favour. Let's us keep Canadians dollars in Canada and we'll worry about whether Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa and QC are sustainable.

 

[Favster]

If another team comes to Quebec the Habs will lose many fans. 100% behind closed doors Molson did everything in his power to prevent this from happening.

 

[ORRFForever]

100% behind closed doors Molson did everything in his power to prevent this from happening.

That is (sadly) true. Molson and MLSE are doing as much to kill Canadian expansion in Quebec and Southern Ontario as Bettman.