Why did Quebec not get a team?

[LuckyDay]

Likely lots of players from Europe would love to have an nhl team in Quebec City. It has a charm that gives it the feel of a smaller European city, so the guys would feel more at home. Can’t think of a better city for the nhl from a charm pov. But the owner would need to incredibly wealthy because the city, although charming, doesn’t have the economic base to support an nhl franchise. The rabid and passionate fans are there though; that’s for sure.

If you could use it as a springboard for interest internationally, that would make sense. How many major sports leagues are greedily eyeing China? But there's never been much of a French market outside of Quebec. Western Europe's largest, wealthiest cities don't seem to be interested in hockey - London, Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Vienna, Rome. Even Amsterdam in a country crazy obsessed with skating.
I can't see other French speaking countries showing much interest unless there was an effort or something grassroots already bubbled up.

 

[StreetHawk]

Who is/are the owner(s), and do they have the money and structure, and can they convince the league that they don’t devalue the Canadiens?

Do they add enough to the media footprint?

Same questions we’ve always asked.

Also want to make clear that I’d love nothing more than for it to happen.

Yep. Plus corporate base. We see in Win that their corporate support dropped drastically. Does QC have enough companies to continuously support the team with sponsorships and season tickets? Can only ask so much of the regular fanbase.

Van would like an NBA team back, but they are not at the top of the expansion list like SEA and LV. So, have to wait their turn, plus unlike the NHL, NBA isn't going to be moving to add 4 more teams in a short period of time.

Plus, the ownership group of the Canucks doesn't have NBA expansion fee money. So, the chances of getting a team in the future doesn't look good. A team in Mexico might happen before another one in Canada.

 

[tucker3434]

I think they’ve gotten priced out. A market that size should’ve come in when franchises cost $100m. Now that the cheapest franchise is over 10x that, I just don’t see it ever happening.

 

[TheBeard]

The Bettman strategy has always been to get a foothold in non-traditional hockey markets with big populations and then hang around until people warm up to the game. Hence expansion rules that make these teams competitive right out of the gate. It’s much easier to warm up to a team that’s good.

I have to imagine one of the greatest barriers to NHL “legitimacy” in the US, is the fact that most Americans don’t care to know where or what places like Winnipeg are. These places possibly tarnish the image of the NHL as folks picture frozen tundra and people living in igloos in the sticks.

I think that's a big part of it. Quebec will always be a hockey-first market. Getting the potential from major non-traditional markets is more important. Once Vegas proved it could be a viable market Gary had eyes for all the other non-traditionals that he probably was afraid to touch (especially after the last go-around with Atlanta and then the Arizona fiasco).

But also, Quebec is a fickle market. When the the political strife of separatism rears its ugly head (as it seems to do every 6-8 years) messing with the economy and the perception, there just seems to be too many unstable aspects that can be expected to make it worthwhile when there's a million other places. I wouldn't be surprised if Hamilton or some other Toronto Suburb gets a franchise before QC does.

 

[Drake1588]

Franchise fees have doubled from $500M to $1B since Vegas entered the league. We haven't heard a peep out of those supposedly willing to front those fees in Quebec City since that happened, even as rumors of Houston and Atlanta have surfaced and expansion to as many as 36 teams is on the table, never mind 34. You're looking at $2B to get a team and build the arena for them to play in, if one doesn't already exist, just to get to Day 1.

Then you need to drum up stable corporate support for suites and to fill the lower bowl. It's not even about population size, per se. No one doubts they can fill an arena with passionate blue collar fans. That isn't the market at the box office for North American pro sports anymore, though. They're seeing this in Winnipeg now.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

$$$ is the reason QC will always be on the outside looking in. Negligible, French speaking media market, very little corporate support, not deep pockets, etc. It would have to be a total vanity project and the city doesn't have the value to jump the queue.

 

[JianYang]

The province already has one team and that team has national and, arguably, international support.
Another team in Quebec would not add a market, it would split it. There's close to a zero sum gain doing that.
The Nordiques were grandfathered into the league because they were one of the 6 teams in the WHA that were relatively successful.

On the English question, this did become a problem for players not wanting to play there in it's last few years. Eric Lindros has to make it clear his reasons for not signing in QC were not the language but the market.

Of all the WHA cities, only Edmonton still exists and it's been touch and go even in the Gretzky era. The teams of that era were successful because ticket sales were virtually the only revenue for them. A new team would have to be prove they could add from their share of the broadcast rights instead of taking a piece from the existing teams.

Good ownership, one that actually will be the focus of their owners, in the suburbs outside, and not inside, Atlanta looks to be winnable.

What major regions in Canada don't have a team? The Atlantic provinces and Saskatchewan. As it is, most fans from the Atlantic region I know support either Boston or Montreal. Could they increase revenues for the league? Doubtful, though Saskatchewan could possibly sell out every night.

I'm not sure if Quebec would split the fanbase with the Habs. I think many people in Quebec city hated the Habs and couldn't ever cheer for them.

That being said, I agree with you that Canada is tapped out.

 

[JianYang]

I think that's a big part of it. Quebec will always be a hockey-first market. Getting the potential from major non-traditional markets is more important. Once Vegas proved it could be a viable market Gary had eyes for all the other non-traditionals that he probably was afraid to touch (especially after the last go-around with Atlanta and then the Arizona fiasco).

But also, Quebec is a fickle market. When the the political strife of separatism rears its ugly head (as it seems to do every 6-8 years) messing with the economy and the perception, there just seems to be too many unstable aspects that can be expected to make it worthwhile when there's a million other places. I wouldn't be surprised if Hamilton or some other Toronto Suburb gets a franchise before QC does.

I don't think Gary was ever afraid of tapping into the non traditional markets.

The mission presented to him when he was brought on board was to get a legitimate national TV deal in the US. In order for that to happen, he needed to get more teams particularly in the south, which is exactly what he did.

The southern movement started almost immediately under his watch with moving teams to Texas, Arizona, and north Carolina and then expanding to Tennessee, and Georgia.

Infact, the nhl had already started the process of expanding their southern exposure prior to bettman with new teams in Florida, and California.

Most of these franchises appear relatively healthy and are still standing, so I don't think there would have been much apprehension by the time they got to 2017 and Vegas came in.

 

[Not The One]

It will always be absolutely wild to me that the No. 1 reason for not having a team in Québec is that they already love hockey. Screw having a team where people will love them... let's put a 2nd one in Texas and have a 3rd try in Georgia.

The net decrease in hockey talent from QC since the Nordiques left is easily higher than the number of NHL players that have been developed in the southern US.

 

[JianYang]

It will always be absolutely wild to me that the No. 1 reason for not having a team in Québec is that they already love hockey. Screw having a team where people will love them... let's put a 2nd one in Texas and have a 3rd try in Georgia.

The net decrease in hockey talent from QC since the Nordiques left is easily higher than the number of NHL players that have been developed in the southern US.

That's not the reason QC is likely not coming back, and it's not even a relevant point. If it was all about the love of hockey, there would be hundreds of franchises across Canada.

Here are the challenges in a nutshell. It's small population wise, it's small corporate wise, and it adds little value to the nhl brand.

 

[BLNY]

Quebecor could certainly afford it, but whether they want to or not is entirely different. Videotron Centre is big enough.

Is 800k, including metro population, enough? Is there enough wealth and business presence to support it? Do the Remparts survive?

 

[TheBeard]

I don't think Gary was ever afraid of tapping into the non traditional markets.

The mission presented to him when he was brought on board was to get a legitimate national TV deal in the US. In order for that to happen, he needed to get more teams particularly in the south, which is exactly what he did.

The southern movement started almost immediately under his watch with moving teams to Texas, Arizona, and north Carolina and then expanding to Tennessee, and Georgia.

Infact, the nhl had already started the process of expanding their southern exposure prior to bettman with new teams in Florida, and California.

Most of these franchises appear relatively healthy and are still standing, so I don't think there would have been much apprehension by the time they got to 2017 and Vegas came in.

Agreed, although I do think Vegas was the most ambitious market in that there was no other major franchise there to gauge local interest.

 

[BKarchitect]

That's not the reason QC is likely not coming back, and it's not even a relevant point. If it was all about the love of hockey, there would be hundreds of franchises across Canada.

Here are the challenges in a nutshell. It's small population wise, it's small corporate wise, and it adds little value to the nhl brand.

Yup. I’d got a step further and say it’s telling that the main argument FOR a team in QC is that “the fans are passionate and deserve it”.

Any argument for expansion that rests heavily on some romantic notion of who deserves what or what would be traditionally “proper” means that argument is already doomed in the landscape of modern professional sports.

I wish it weren’t that way. But it is.

The challenge in this - construct a numbers-based, logistics based argument for QC with no mention of “fans”, “traditional”, “history” or “deserving” - just raw data and growth projections and new viewership numbers. Construct that argument and sell it to the CEO of a huge corporation who is concerned about growth and bottom line and prove why that data suggests this market should be above the likes of Atlanta or Houston or heck even Toronto Mark II.

 

[crowi]

Likely lots of players from Europe would love to have an nhl team in Quebec City. It has a charm that gives it the feel of a smaller European city, so the guys would feel more at home. Can’t think of a better city for the nhl from a charm pov. But the owner would need to incredibly wealthy because the city, although charming, doesn’t have the economic base to support an nhl franchise. The rabid and passionate fans are there though; that’s for sure.

Mr. Ass, could you explain why, for example a Finnish player, that has some understanding of English language and none others at all, would somehow find a place where French is a must a good thing or place to play? Top EU hockey countries DO NOT understand or speak French.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The NHL never put a team in Quebec city. They absorbed the Nords from a rival league that put them there to compete against the Canadiens for attention. Then when the league couldn't get a cap when salaries started to skyrocket, it's no coincidence that Quebec, Winnipeg, and Hartford, 3 of the 4 WHA cities, lost their teams(the other city to lose their team, Minnesota, had their own financial issues, having to previously merge with the Barons to remain operational). And the only reason the Oilers remained in Edmonton is because they happened to have dynastic history by that point in time. Had they not won the Cup, there would be no Oilers today. They were barely competitive outside of some upsets from the mid-90's to the year after the cap.

 

[57special]

Ontario(somewhere in or near the GTA) has the fanbase and cash to have another team. Not anywhere else in Canada.

 

[dgibb10]

Ontario(somewhere in or near the GTA) has the fanbase and cash to have another team. Not anywhere else in Canada.

What new fans are you really adding in those areas that don't already have a favourite NHL team?

 

[57special]

What new fans are you really adding in those areas that don't already have a favourite NHL team?

Hamiltonians(and others outside of Toronto) would LOVE to have a team besides the Leafs to cheer for. I mean, we are talking about an automatic sell out, and a line up of advertisers to buy media time and boxes, which is more than you can say about many of the other locations being talked about. It's an easy sell, as opposed to Houston, Atlanta(two time losers), KC, and the like. Yes Houston has a large population, but only a fraction of them know or care about hockey. In Ontario, OTOH, it's #1.

It's such a no brainer. I get that you want to "grow the game", but for how much longer can you ignore a huge market that's already there, and would be an instant money maker?

 

[snag]

And the only reason the Oilers remained in Edmonton is because they happened to have dynastic history by that point in time. Had they not won the Cup, there would be no Oilers today. They were barely competitive outside of some upsets from the mid-90's to the year after the cap.

That should be a question asked for the Edmonton Investors Group and Darryl Katz.

I wonder what Cal Nichols et all and Katz's response would be.

I mean, it was THEIR money that kept the Oilers here.

 

[benfranklin]

Small market.

Salt Lake, Atlanta, Houston, and KC are all pretty big in the States population wise and have huge potential for growth.

 

[Crede777]

Hamiltonians(and others outside of Toronto) would LOVE to have a team besides the Leafs to cheer for. I mean, we are talking about an automatic sell out, and a line up of advertisers to buy media time and boxes, which is more than you can say about many of the other locations being talked about. It's an easy sell, as opposed to Houston, Atlanta(two time losers), KC, and the like. Yes Houston has a large population, but only a fraction of them know or care about hockey. In Ontario, OTOH, it's #1.

It's such a no brainer. I get that you want to "grow the game", but for how much longer can you ignore a huge market that's already there, and would be an instant money maker?

The question is if those Hamiltonians and others outside of Toronto already give money to the NHL or not. If they do, the NHL doesn't gain anything by adding a second team and just diverting money from the Leafs or whichever teams those fans spend money on today. The other question is if Rogers is willing to pay significantly more on the next television rights deal just because Toronto got a 2nd team.

 

[vpasla1]

The question is if those Hamiltonians and others outside of Toronto already give money to the NHL or not. If they do, the NHL doesn't gain anything by adding a second team and just diverting money from the Leafs or whichever teams those fans spend money on today. The other question is if Rogers is willing to pay significantly more on the next television rights deal just because Toronto got a 2nd team.

The NHL gets a big chunk of its revenue from the gate. Leaf games are basically sold out and there's a wait list for season tickets.

Using that logic, many people would be happy to give their money to the NHL to see NHL games in person. More than likely they would sell out, and even if the second team only charged 75% of what the Leafs charged, they would still make a killing, which in turn would benefit the league as well.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Likely lots of players from Europe would love to have an nhl team in Quebec City. It has a charm that gives it the feel of a smaller European city, so the guys would feel more at home. Can’t think of a better city for the nhl from a charm pov. But the owner would need to incredibly wealthy because the city, although charming, doesn’t have the economic base to support an nhl franchise. The rabid and passionate fans are there though; that’s for sure.

Outside of that 0.5-1.0 square miles area downtown, not really, no.

It's a sprawling suburban hellscape riddled with stroads and highways.

 

[Devonator]

I said it before and I will say it again....Quebec should have a team if for no other reason, they had the best uniforms in Hockey....and also that great rivalry with the Habs......Quebec deserves a team!

 

[HuGort]

Atlanta and Minnesota given 2nd chance. Quebec should have one too

The NHL never put a team in Quebec city. They absorbed the Nords from a rival league that put them there to compete against the Canadiens for attention. Then when the league couldn't get a cap when salaries started to skyrocket, it's no coincidence that Quebec, Winnipeg, and Hartford, 3 of the 4 WHA cities, lost their teams(the other city to lose their team, Minnesota, had their own financial issues, having to previously merge with the Barons to remain operational). And the only reason the Oilers remained in Edmonton is because they happened to have dynastic history by that point in time. Had they not won the Cup, there would be no Oilers today. They were barely competitive outside of some upsets from the mid-90's to the year after the cap.