Why did Luc Robitaille spend two years in juniors after his draft year?

[Cursed Lemon]

In yet another edition of "wtf was going on in juniors in the 80s", Luc Robitaille scored 80 in 75 in his draft year, which in 80s major juniors was good enough to land him 171st overall. Okay, fair enough.

He proceeds to score 148 points in 64 games the next year... ... ...and they keep him in juniors, where he proceeds to score 191 points in 63 games, including 44 points in 15 playoff games (!!!!)

tHeRe wErE cOnCeRnS aBoUt hIs sKaTiNg aBiLiTy, you know I'm starting to develop an opinion of asset management in the 80s

Click to read more...

 

[Michael Farkas]

One makes some sense. He was still considered a "plumber" at that point. No '66 born QMJHL forwards played in the league in 1985. Stephane Richer was the only '66 born to even play in 1986. It wasn't a very good league (like today, I suppose) so the quality was questionable. It's not entirely obvious, at a glance, how long of a look he even got in training camp in '86 (fall of '85) to your point.

Articles from around that time all seemed to make it pretty clear that Robitaille was gonna be back and the focal point on the Gretzky-owned Olympiques...

Him and Jimmy Carson made a wonderful impression the next training camp. Naturally, his skating was brought up as having been improved.

 

[Albatros]

In Hull he had a good coach in Pat Burns and got to play in an environment where he thrived, pretty good management I'd say. Can you play him with Marcel Dionne if he arrives a year earlier? Or does he get buried and struggles to make an impact in the big league?

 

[Staniowski]

For his 18-year-old season, it's basically the same question as: "why was he drafted in the 9th round?"

For his 19-year-old season, I think he really could've been playing in LA....he was very good at the WJC. But his scoring improved a lot in each season in the Q, so it was probably for the best for his career that he remained in junior. Afterall, it worked out well for him.

 

[Moose Head]

Old time King fans can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think he almost made the Kings after his D+1 season. I think he was one of the final cuts.

 

[The Panther]

It worked out best for him, but yeah, it is kind of odd.

I can see why he didn't make the Kings' camp in 1984. He was young, one of their last draft-picks (they didn't even know who he was or have team jerseys left when he walked to the Kings' draft table!), his skating was relatively poor, and he'd just been outscored on his team by Dave Purcell (undrafted university player) while playing for the 2nd worst team in the Q.

1985 is a little harder to understand. On the 1984-85 Olympiques, Robitaille's 148 points (in 64 games) placed him 3rd in the Q in scoring. But, for context, the L.A. Kings in 1984-85 had a pretty successful season (relatively speaking) under new coach Pat Quinn -- they'd had a winning record and made the playoffs, even giving Edmonton a good challenge in the first playoff round. They were already a pretty high-scoring team, and you know Pat Quinn liked his two-way, tough guys. Maybe Robitaille's skill-set was seen as unnecessary, so, if he had just a so-so training camp in September 1985, he failed to make the club again.

Anyway, it worked out well in the end!

 

[MadLuke]

I could be influenced by Mtl development pipeline, but was it at the time was it just still more normal for under 20 to not go up in the big leagues back in those days ?

People in charge in the early 80s would have played hockey in a era that Dionne/Guy Lafleur themselve turned 20 before their first nhl game.

It was as just a couple of year earlier (1980) that the draft age was dropped to 18, the pipeline and habit was probably geared into letting prospect play their full junior.

with Montreal (even a little trip in the AHL after that) it was common in the 80s at least, Carbo scored almost 100 pts in the AHL before making his final jump, after having a 182 pts 4th season in the junior.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Let me temper my OP by saying that I suppose in one way I understand, in that I'm sure these managers were having hangovers from so many high-scoring junior players in the 70s that absolutely flamed out at the pro level. Specifically, for some reason, the 1974 QMJHL season.

 

[MadLuke]

I think none of those jumped in the nhl before a full 4 years in junior or wha road too (explaining in part their giant numbers), so I am not sure they would link it to a jumped too soon vs our longer plan with Robitaiile.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Could be influenced by Mtl development pipeline, but was it at the time was it just still more normal for under 20 to not go up in the big leagues back in those days.

GM at this time was Rogie Vachon, former Canadien, of course.

 

[Crosby2010]

There are plenty of players who put up big numbers in the QMJHL in the 1980s especially but there are also some players who put up big numbers in junior who were expected to make the NHL but who didn't do it right away. Robitaille is one of them, Brad Richards comes to mind too as a guy who played out his junior career and had an 186 point season in his last year in the Q and also won the Memorial Cup. He was ordinary in the WJC, but he was a guy who stepped in and contributed in the NHL right away who you thought maybe could have done it earlier. But what a difference a year makes though. I have seen plenty of busts, but I have never seen someone who became a bust because a team was patient with him.

And as it was already mentioned, Robitaille's skating was subpar. In fact, he never became a good skater. So that could have gone against him.

Lastly, Pat Quinn was the coach. He is traditionally not the type to give youngsters a chance early on.

 

[MadLuke]

I have seen plenty of busts, but I have never seen someone who became a bust because a team was patient with him.

That one would be so much harder to code it that way, every year in most club I imagine there talk of X getting destroyed because teams do not make room for them with veteran on bad contract needing to be played or what not. The other way around would always be easier too critic.

Did Tavares played too long in the OHL (here it is not like a team had a choice), did Lindros could have benefited to jump in the nhl younger, etc... Those are obviously very far from bust and it would just be minor adjustment.

It is easier to point to player getting "too fast" in the league than those that would have lost motivation by having to wait for too long and it could be quite era to era dependant.

Carey Price for example did say how much of a shock professional level hockey was and a big wake up call for him, where he completly upgraded his training and dedication vs pre-nhl days, is there a world that a more patient club does not create in him that wake up call and he never become what he did ?

And in those club too patient, we would mentally blame the player over the club versus the other way around.

I think the 2005 season could show how much benefit an ahl season can have on star prospect, specially when it is not coded in any way as a demerit-blame on them.

 

[The Panther]

Lastly, Pat Quinn was the coach. He is traditionally not the type to give youngsters a chance early on.

Speaking of Pat Quinn, does anyone know why he was fired midway through 1986-87?

The Kings had a good-ish season in 1984-85, and then a terrible season in 1985-86. But early in 1986-87 they were off to a reasonable 18-20-4 record in the first half or so of the season when they fired Quinn, in January 1987. (They'd been 13-24-5 in the first 42 games a year earlier, so obviously the club was performing better.)

They used Mike Murphy as coach for the final 38 games and playoffs, and then in the summer hired Robbie Ftorek. Maybe they wanted a young guy for the benefit of Robitaille, Carson, Dushesne...?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Speaking of Pat Quinn, does anyone know why he was fired early in 1986-87?

He signed with Vancouver in the middle of the season, during the holiday break...

It's a wonder he wasn't banned from all NHL positions for longer...he was really just not allowed to be coach for a while, but still got to work for Vancouver like six months later as GM...

 

[carjackmalone]

Zeigler imposed a 3 year coaching ban on Quinn

 

[Terry Yake]

and he was tied for most pts on his team with 191 in his last jr season

 

[MadLuke]

Guy Rouleau scoring 91 goals-191 points on the same team (60-133, 76-163 the 2 years before), 43 in 15 playoffs games while never getting drafted, do show how not that impressive or out of place Robitaille's where for the scouts of the time I can imagine, specially if you are 5 foot 9.

 

[JackSlater]

I don't think it's all that strange. There are plenty of guys coming out of junior, and more specifically the QMJHL, who dominate but have a clear flaw and end up staying in junior until they are 20. Most of them never pan out into HHOF players though. For instance recently Jordan Dumais has a better QMJHL resume (and was more dominant in the QMJHL) than Robitaille did as a draft eligible and then D+1 player. He also was not a high draft pick, though he was picked higher than Robitaille was. He's small, while Robitaille was a poor skater, giving them a clear flaw in spite of their scoring. No one outside of the biggest Columbus homers is especially shocked that Dumais didn't make the NHL after one post-draft season.

If the internet had existed at the time you'd have had a few Kings fans calling 19 year old Robitaille a future star while everyone laughed at them.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Junior*, and he was a poor skater, put up solid but unspectacular numbers in the Q in his DY

 

[overpass]

Guy Rouleau scoring 91 goals-191 points on the same team (60-133, 76-163 the 2 years before), 43 in 15 playoffs games while never getting drafted, do show how not that impressive or out of place Robitaille's where for the scouts of the time I can imagine, specially if you are 5 foot 9.

Rouleau did get attention as a junior. Canadiens' scouts were positive about his ability to score in the NHL, and he was invited to training camp in Montreal in 1985, 1986, and 1987. But he didn't play well in camp and missed his opportunities, although he did get a season with their AHL team.

Rouleau was known as a slow starter in junior. My guess is that he wasn't in NHL shape.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Rouleau did get attention as a junior. Canadiens' scouts were positive about his ability to score in the NHL, and he was invited to training camp in Montreal in 1985, 1986, and 1987. But he didn't play well in camp and missed his opportunities, although he did get a season with their AHL team.

Rouleau was known as a slow starter in junior. My guess is that he wasn't in NHL shape.

What happened to Rouleau in 1989? It looks like he missed a whole season after a pretty good AHL season.

 

[IComeInPeace]

In his last season he put up 191 points, to tie for the team scoring lead with Guy Rouleau.
Rouleau played no NHL games.

I’d say every season there were a handful of guys in junior hockey (at least) who on paper looked like they belonged in the NHL, but on the ice at the pro level (even the minor league level) they struggled.

Usually they had at least 2 of the following common denominators (and often all three):
a lack of size, poor skaters and allergic to their own end of the ice.

 

[overpass]

The language barrier could be a challenge for Quebec players as well. I don't think Robitaille's English was great but he had the personality to make it work in LA.

Guy Rouleau spoke very little English and had a bad experience at the Blues' camp as an 18 year old. So he decided he would only play in Quebec or Europe after juniors, which is why he turned down other offers to go to the Habs' training camp, and signed a minor league deal to play in Sherbrooke. A few years later he was presumably more confident, went to the Islanders' camp, and played in Springfield and other American cities.

 

[Jumptheshark]

I love these kind of threads

1 and it is big ONE

He was taken in the 9th round!!! It was not like he was taken in the first round

2--HE SPOKE NO ENGLISH or very bad english depending on who you talk to

3---The low respect for the Q

The Q was known for two things in the 80's. Fighting and scoring... not so much for their D
Anyone who thought the NHL had high scoring in the 80's needs to look at the Q

4- His skating.

After being drafted he hired or someone hired a skating instructor for him and he still was not that good of skater in the NHL--but he had high hockey IQ and this did not come evident to his final year in the Q

 

[The Panther]

Luc Robitaille is the ultimate example of why having particular disadvantages, and also why skills in a vacuum, are both quite unimportant. Such things are easily out-ranked by (a) professional determination and (b) hockey IQ.

Robitaille in 1984 / 1985:
-- Size = average
-- Physicality = nope
-- Defense = nope
-- Skating / speed = nope
-- English = nope
-- Experience in very competitive league = nope
-- High draft position = nope
-- Makes NHL club in first try = nope
-- Makes NHL club in second try = nope

How in hell does this that guy score 726 NHL goals...??

Answer: Determination and hockey IQ.