Speculation: Why are the Leafs so hesitant to change the main pieces?

robertmac43

Forever 43!
Mar 31, 2015
24,205
16,348
Business is good in Leafs land. Why upset that with a trade?

Sure it would likely help the hockey performance but at the end of the day players like Willie, Marner, AM34 etc sell tickets and jerseys.

Also it's impossible to move those deals...
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,264
24,400
Richmond Hill, ON
They're not afraid.

They're stupid. There's a difference. It's hard to tell because they both lead to the same result.

Failure.

It's only a matter of time before Treliving does something stupid again. We all know he's gonna do something stupid. We just don't know how stupid it's gonna be until he does whatever it is he does that's so stupid.

I can't wait for it to happen too.

Look at the moves teams serious about wanting to contend are making. It's amazing how teams get better when you put better players on them. Rather than stuffing them full of no talent grinders like the Leafs do every year.

Stupidly hoping a four man skeleton crew, consisting of the world's most appropriately compensated hockey players, can drag them into contention.
Until they admit this, they will never get the train back on the track. I expect to more pain watching Tavares this year and Shanny to finally die on that hill.
 

darrylsittler27

Registered User
Oct 21, 2002
7,036
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The Leafs aren't trying to win a cup next year. They want to beat Boston. They just signed the next Chara, go ahead laugh. You can book that series, first round

The Leafs aren't trying to win a cup next year. They want to beat Boston. They just signed the next Chara, go ahead laugh. You can book that series, first round
Ps Bert was never worth 5.5 mill. Suckers.
 

Racer88

Registered User
Sep 29, 2020
11,174
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I am putting none of this on Tre. Shanahan is the sole reason (as well as whoever the other MLSE idiots who were in charge) for why we are in this mess! We will just have to keep our fingers crossed that there is at least one GM and owner out there dumb enough to make at least a fair trade for Marner.

At least we will be rid of Shanahan (at the very least in terms of player salaries and team construction) after this season.
I’m not really blaming Tre for the mess of the core 4 and how it affects the cap distribution but I do believe if Shanny is gone the new guy will want his own GM just like new GM’s want their own coach
 

Shanwhatplan

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
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I’m not really blaming Tre for the mess of the core 4 and how it affects the cap distribution but I do believe if Shanny is gone the new guy will want his own GM just like new GM’s want their own coach
That is true, but I have also heard that they may be doing away with even having a Team President. This is just something I've heard on a Leafs' podcast, so there may also be nothing to that.
 

Shanwhatplan

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Mar 31, 2019
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It seems that they want to give Berube a shot to make this core group work. It's probably not what most of us wanted, including myself, but that seems to be the plan. I guess Berube meeting with Marner was our first clue. Who knows if he can get something out of them, that neither Keefe, nor Babcock could. I wonder at what point they look at this, and go... ya, this isn't going to work and truly make changes? Or, are they just waiting for Tavares contract to expire, extend Marner, and try and get Tavares down low enough, that they can use that cap elsewhere?

Realistically... the D core is locked up for at least two years... except for McCabe, who shouldn't be hard to extend. If the cap goes up another $4 mil, and Tavares signs for $5 mil... that gives us $10 mil to work with. McCabe probably gets $3 mil, Marner $2 mil... so maybe $5 mil left?? Have to extend Knies too... so... hmm... maybe not that much left over to really make changes...
The main difference here, I think, is that Shanahan no longer can keep these core players in his bubble where they don't have to be held accountable for their play on the ice, as well as that feeling of entitlement that they have had. Of course we will have to wait and see what happens once the season starts.
 

Racer88

Registered User
Sep 29, 2020
11,174
11,085
They're not afraid.

They're stupid. There's a difference. It's hard to tell because they both lead to the same result.

Failure.

It's only a matter of time before Treliving does something stupid again. We all know he's gonna do something stupid. We just don't know how stupid it's gonna be until he does whatever it is he does that's so stupid.

I can't wait for it to happen too.

Look at the moves teams serious about wanting to contend are making. It's amazing how teams get better when you put better players on them. Rather than stuffing them full of no talent grinders like the Leafs do every year.

Stupidly hoping a four man skeleton crew, consisting of the world's most appropriately compensated hockey players, can drag them into contention.
If they are a skeleton crew as you say, they consume 50% of the cap.
What actually is stupid is thinking that you can acquire 19 more players for an equal 50% left and build a good team
You must see that…..right

That is true, but I have also heard that they may be doing away with even having a Team President. This is just something I've heard on a Leafs' podcast, so there may also be nothing to that.
That would be awesome to know that Shanny was the guy that destroyed the team president position
lol
 
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Shanwhatplan

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
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Marner @ $13m would put the cherry on top of total incompetence. Makes me want to puke just thinking about it.
Agree, although I would think that $12 million would/should be the max he would be offered. But even that would be too much. Sadly, I think it will come down to:
1) they let him walk and get nothing in return
2) trade him for pennies on the dollar (again there would have to be a GM and owner out there who would be willing to pay him that much which I find hard to believe there would be)
3) resign him

I just can't believe that #2 is a possibility due to a team being willing to pay him that much.
I can't think right off of a team who has done #1 and ended up being better. However, of these three options, I would probably still prefer #1.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,264
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Richmond Hill, ON
Agree, although I would think that $12 million would/should be the max he would be offered. But even that would be too much. Sadly, I think it will come down to:
1) they let him walk and get nothing in return
2) trade him for pennies on the dollar (again there would have to be a GM and owner out there who would be willing to pay him that much which I find hard to believe there would be)
3) resign him

I just can't believe that #2 is a possibility due to a team being willing to pay him that much.
I can't think right off of a team who has done #1 and ended up being better. However, of these three options, I would probably still prefer #1.
New York Islanders
 

socko

Registered User
Nov 26, 2013
7,915
5,998
Martinez, GA
1) they let him walk and get nothing in return
2) trade him for pennies on the dollar (again there would have to be a GM and owner out there who would be willing to pay him that much which I find hard to believe there would be)
3) resign him

I can't think right off of a team who has done #1 and ended up being better.
NY Islanders
 

nuck

Schrodingers Cat
Aug 18, 2005
11,540
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Obviosuly it's not impossible but its as close to it as you can get. If the players in question were cheaper, it would be easier. If they had no trade protection, it would be easier.
If the player has to go UFA they lose that 8th year which is huge. If a club does not allow them to showcase in the regular season like Willie suddenly getting 19:55 a night it will cost them. Thats millions off the players next contract and the team still plays them 18:00 a night in the regular season and gets their 50 wins. Own rental is bad asset management for the club but worse for the player who has no means of ever recouping the $. If a player believes he won't get re-signed it absolutely makes financial sense to waive.
 
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ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
25,264
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Richmond Hill, ON
If the player has to go UFA they lose that 8th year which is huge. If a club does not allow them to showcase in the regular season like Willie suddenly getting 19:55 a night it will cost them. Thats millions off the players next contract and the team still plays them 18:00 a night in the regular season and gets their 50 wins. Own rental is bad asset management for the club but worse for the player who has no means of ever recouping the $. If a player believes he won't get re-signed it absolutely makes financial sense to waive.
I don't see this team being a serious SC contender this year so I'd be open to moving Marner at the TDL if he agrees to waive. Maybe that is the best return you can get, given nobody is breaking Tre's door to acquire him. We know Trotz kicked tires, but signed the 3 best available UFAs instead.
 
Sep 18, 2009
9,234
4,592
Business is good in Leafs land. Why upset that with a trade?

Sure it would likely help the hockey performance but at the end of the day players like Willie, Marner, AM34 etc sell tickets and jerseys.

Also it's impossible to move those deals...
All good as long as you guys keep buying tickets and merch and Bieber jerseys I for one won't step foot in the Scotiabank palace
 

robertmac43

Forever 43!
Mar 31, 2015
24,205
16,348
Difficult? Sure.

But players with No Move Clauses get moved all the time.

Where there's a will, there's always a way.
I agree 100% and tbh I'm of the mind that Marner will be moved. I think he will welcome the move as well, Toronto can't be an easy place to live/play for him at this point in time.

It's just far more complicated with the $$$ value and no-move.
 

notDatsyuk

Registered User
Jul 20, 2018
10,430
8,460
Agree, although I would think that $12 million would/should be the max he would be offered. But even that would be too much. Sadly, I think it will come down to:
1) they let him walk and get nothing in return
2) trade him for pennies on the dollar (again there would have to be a GM and owner out there who would be willing to pay him that much which I find hard to believe there would be)
3) resign him

I just can't believe that #2 is a possibility due to a team being willing to pay him that much.
I can't think right off of a team who has done #1 and ended up being better. However, of these three options, I would probably still prefer #1.
Teams are regularly letting players walk at the end of a contract. Samsonov is the first one that comes to mind, and we're probably better without him.

The issue is more a high profile player. It becomes a question of "can you get equivalent value using just the freed up cap space", and not necessarily in a single player. If, as most people seem to think, he is overpaid at his current $11, let alone at the projected $12.5, then it may not be easy, but shouldn't be impossible.
 
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Fogelhund

Registered User
Sep 15, 2007
22,077
25,185
They want to give Berube a crack and getting these players to succeed... before dismantling it... and Berube wants a chance to coach these guys. It's rare to have such a collection of talent on one time... and I appreciate that they haven't achieved anything, but it's hard to deny that there are more elite offensive talents here, than most teams could dream of. That must be kind of exciting as a coach, to come into a team with this level of talent, with the hopes you can make them succeed, where others couldn't.

I had hoped for some big changes this off season... but that isn't going to happen now. So we get to see if Berube and co. can get something out of these guys.
 

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
13,235
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GTA or the UK
I agree 100% and tbh I'm of the mind that Marner will be moved. I think he will welcome the move as well, Toronto can't be an easy place to live/play for him at this point in time.

It's just far more complicated with the $$$ value and no-move.
He won't be moved - because the organization doesn't have the appetite to push him out the door. It was never going to be as simple as "hey do you want to leave?" and him just saying "well actually since you asked so nicely, let me go pack my bags".

They were going to have to get somewhat pushy with him, and like I said after that final press conference when everyone was saying CHANGE IS COMING!, they just don't operate with the level of ruthlessness required to do that.

They've simply accepted that he won't waive, and haven't done a thing to change his mind on the issue.

In their pitch to Jeff Skinner, they informed him that they wanted him to play on a line with Tavares and Marner, which indicates that they are absolutely set on keeping him.
 
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nuck

Schrodingers Cat
Aug 18, 2005
11,540
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They want to give Berube a crack and getting these players to succeed... before dismantling it... and Berube wants a chance to coach these guys. It's rare to have such a collection of talent on one time... and I appreciate that they haven't achieved anything, but it's hard to deny that there are more elite offensive talents here, than most teams could dream of. That must be kind of exciting as a coach, to come into a team with this level of talent, with the hopes you can make them succeed, where others couldn't.

I had hoped for some big changes this off season... but that isn't going to happen now. So we get to see if Berube and co. can get something out of these guys.
I still have hopes Mitch is moved but it would be unreasonable to assume that just because Keefe couldn't get the club over the hump no other coach could. It will be a different look and hopefully there are some lesser changes still being contemplated.
 
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arso40

Registered User
Jun 7, 2022
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He won't be moved - because the organization doesn't have the appetite to push him out the door. It was never going to be as simple as "hey do you want to leave?" and him just saying "well actually since you asked so nicely, let me go pack my bags".

They were going to have to get somewhat pushy with him, and like I said after that final press conference when everyone was saying CHANGE IS COMING!, they just don't operate with the level of ruthlessness required to do that.

They've simply accepted that he won't waive, and haven't done a thing to change his mind on the issue.

In their pitch to Jeff Skinner, they informed him that they wanted him to play on a line with Tavares and Marner, which indicates that they are absolutely set on keeping him.
on a line with matty and marner im pretty sure
 

Shanwhatplan

Registered User
Mar 31, 2019
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New York Islanders
Wow, talk about not doing a little digging before I post something! All that I would have had to do was look at JT's former team! Trust me, lesson learned!

However, one thing I want to point out is that I am hoping that Marner will be traded this offseason. If he isn't, then I am going to assume that he will play out this season and then walk away for nothing next summer. If that happens, then as Tonedog has just pointed out with how well the Islanders have done since Tavares left, I would be fine with that. BUT, if Marner is resigned, then I will feel the same about Tre and Pelley as some of you others feel about them now!
 

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