why are posters on the main boards so down on us

[FlyingJ]

Let me have a theory right here, and it's big lol.

GSN play the right way but they are the less skilled forwards on the team. Outside of the MacTurryan line, the coach doesn't like how the other lines play the game. Message to management : Get me some new players, we need some changes. Boom, Spezza traded

The right way is frequently sustaining 0 time in the offensive zone and giving up their own team's blue line like a 25 cent hooker? Plus apparently having no idea where they're supposed to be in their defensive zone?

I think you're right, MacLean didn't like how some of the other lines were playing, but putting out a line that might as well be holding up a neon sign that reads "Please Score On Us" is asinine. I think it's more likely MacLean was enamoured with the idea that they hit and play hard despite the results it wrought. He did say he tried to be more demanding last year, so perhaps when some players didn't play the exact style he wanted, he shafted them for plugs who will at least try to do things his way.

 

[Micklebot]

- Defense gave up 261G last year and nothing was addressed on the blue line

But we did address team defence. The forward group is a much more defensively responsible one compared to last years.

- last time Turrus was asked to carry the offense without Spezza he was only a 50 point player

True, but that team also lacked Karlsson for all but 17 games, and lacked a competent 2nd line center (smith had that role for the most part). This year, with the growth of Zibanejad last season, and signing of Legwand, we have 3 guys capable of 2nd line duties, and Smith who imo is a great 3rd line center. That's not a bad group even if it does lack top end talent.

- Alfredsson and Spezza left back to back years because they did not believe this team could contend for a cup

Fair enough, but that has little to do with competing for a playoff spot (our current goal). It's also questionable that this is accurate for Alfredsson; Detroit was not in much (if any) better a position than Ottawa was when Alfie left. Had going for the cup been his primary motivation, he'd have signed with Boston. Spezza wants to be challenging for the cup for the rest of his prime years (about 2-4 more years) where as we might be in a position to do so in 3-4 years. That's not an inditment against Ottawa, just that the player and the team are at different stages.

Teams closer to a lottery pick then a playoff spot

I disagree, though I guess from a technical standpoint, if all non-playoff teams are now eligible for the #1 pick via the lottery then you are technically correct. This team is a bubble playoff team, I think we're close to 50/50.

 

[Baby Ryan]

The right way is frequently sustaining 0 time in the offensive zone and giving up their own team's blue line like a 25 cent hooker? Plus apparently having no idea where they're supposed to be in their defensive zone?

I think you're right, MacLean didn't like how some of the other lines were playing, but putting out a line that might as well be holding up a neon sign that reads "Please Score On Us" is asinine. I think it's more likely MacLean was enamoured with the idea that they hit and play hard despite the results it wrought. He did say he tried to be more demanding last year, so perhaps when some players didn't play the exact style he wanted, he shafted them for plugs who will at least try to do things his way.

I don't know about you, but I remember games were they were actually sustaining time in the offensive zone with simple plays.
They did the simple plays to gain entry into the zone and beat them on the boards multiple times.

Problem was, they lacked much of the offensive skill to put the finishing touches.

They also lacked the defensive skill to match up with top lines in the defensive zone, further exposing them.

But they did do the simple plays that gained them offensive zone time, however again they were not skilled enough to do anything more than just sustained pressure and outside of that sustained pressure, there was not much because of who they were matched up against in the defensive zone.

At least that's what I saw.

 

[FlyingJ]

I don't know about you, but I remember games were they were actually sustaining time in the offensive zone with simple plays.

Problem was, they lacked much of the offensive skill to put the finishing touches.

They also lacked the defensive skill to match up with top lines in the defensive zone, further exposing them.

But they did do the simple plays that gained them offensive zone time, however again they were not skilled enough to do anything more than just sustained pressure and outside of that sustained pressure, there was not much because of who they were matched up against in the defensive zone.

At least that's what I saw.

I more frequently recall shifts of getting one shot on net, and then done. And they weren't just bad defensively against top lines, but other teams' third lines too. Though the amount MacLean played them did too often get them exposed against top 2 lines too.

I also recall early in the year Neil constantly carrying the puck and trying to turn wide coming out from behind the opposing net, presumably to fling the the puck on net. Too bad more often the puck left his stick before he could make the whole turn, resulting in it flying off to the blueline to nobody in particular at best, and an opposing player at worst. Oy vey. That was one of my most hated plays last year.

 

[Micklebot]

The right way is frequently sustaining 0 time in the offensive zone and giving up their own team's blue line like a 25 cent hooker? Plus apparently having no idea where they're supposed to be in their defensive zone?

I think you're right, MacLean didn't like how some of the other lines were playing, but putting out a line that might as well be holding up a neon sign that reads "Please Score On Us" is asinine. I think it's more likely MacLean was enamoured with the idea that they hit and play hard despite the results it wrought. He did say he tried to be more demanding last year, so perhaps when some players didn't play the exact style he wanted, he shafted them for plugs who will at least try to do things his way.

Every member of the GSN line had a Corsi for % above 50%; Corsi for % correlates very strongly with offensive zone time, so while they did not have the best year, the were not constantly hemmed in their own zone. While, they did have their issues they were also used in a defensive role starting more often in the Defensive zone and against scoring lines. While if may have not been the line we'd win the game with, it freed up softer minutes for our more skilled lines.

 

[krapsik]

Teams closer to a lottery pick then a playoff spot

OK. I understand, that pessimism is a middle name of most Sens posters here.
But lets get real. To make PO we need be in a top 3 of our division. Boston is Boston, but even them need to start falling sometime. You seriously think, that our roster is much worse than in Montreal, Detroit, Toronto, Tampa, Florida or Buffalo ?
If our players starts to play to their potential, we can eat any of this teams alive.
I think we easilly can fight for 2-3 spot in division.
We are better team without Spezza-once you start to understand that, life seems more beautiful.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

OK. I understand, that pessimism is a middle name of most Sens posters here.
But lets get real. To make PO we need be in a top 3 of our division. Boston is Boston, but even them need to start falling sometime. You seriously think, that our roster is much worse than in Montreal, Detroit, Toronto, Tampa, Florida or Buffalo ?
If our players starts to play to their potential, we can eat any of this teams alive.
I think we easilly can fight for 2-3 spot in division.
We are better team without Spezza-once you start to understand that, life seems more beautiful.

Montreal - They are a big wild card. Their team seems to be mediocre, yet they have been getting surprisingly good results for the last 2 years. I wouldn't discount them as being top 2 in the division IMO.

Toronto - Outside perception is that they are a bubble team and are much better than Ottawa. I think they are a bubble team and that's about it. Playing to our potential, we should easily be better in the standings.

Tampa - Good young team, but we seem to have no problem taking them down head-to-head when we play smart. Wonder if the rest of the league will figure it out.

Florida - supposedly vastly improved, but it's Florida. Even though they pulled out some wins on us last year.

Buffalo - is Buffalo.

Detroit - In a nutshell, over the hill. Past their best before date.

We can easily get top 3 in the division if we play smart with no major performance letdowns occur. We have an easy division compared to the rest of the league.

 

[Xspyrit]

The default argument of it is too much or too long makes it very clear that these people have not followed the business of the sport over the last 5 years or are simply trolling.

Yet we provided so many facts. The best fact I came with is in the last 4 seasons, MacArthur has averaged 22 goals and 32 assists (54 points) per 82 games

With 55 points, he was 65th in scoring in WHOLE the NHL last season. On average, this is like the 3rd best scorer on his team

Also, 84 forwards on 30 teams scored more than 50 pts last year. Which makes guys that average 54 pts per 82 games very valuable. NHL hand only had as evolve a lot faster than people it seems

Last time Turris was asked to carry the offence without spezza we went to the second round of the playoffs.

This, he was also 23 years old and only had played 49 games with the Sens prior to that season, a team with who his career really started. The fact that it was a 50 pts pace center despite all the context is a good sign

The right way is frequently sustaining 0 time in the offensive zone and giving up their own team's blue line like a 25 cent hooker? Plus apparently having no idea where they're supposed to be in their defensive zone?

I think you're right, MacLean didn't like how some of the other lines were playing, but putting out a line that might as well be holding up a neon sign that reads "Please Score On Us" is asinine. I think it's more likely MacLean was enamoured with the idea that they hit and play hard despite the results it wrought. He did say he tried to be more demanding last year, so perhaps when some players didn't play the exact style he wanted, he shafted them for plugs who will at least try to do things his way.

I get the feeling but reading you, it seems that your opinions are heavily influenced by your own "eye test" and hate/love relationships with players (aka bias). I understand that it was not always pretty but the GSN (not that I really liked that line myself) didn't get scored on as much as Spezza, Michalek, Hemsky and Zibanejad did, not even close.

And that is why I insist on giving facts and objectiveness more place in discussions. Here is a table for each forward that played on the Sens last year.

Name - ES GA - ES GA/60

Ales Hemsky 4.77
Jason Spezza 4.62
Milan Michalek 4.4
Mika Zibanejad 3.61
Bobby Ryan 2.79
Colin Greening 2.73
Clarke MacArthur 2.63
Kyle Turris 2.51
Zack Smith 2.48
Chris Neil 2.47
Cory Conacher 2.26
Erik Condra 2.06

* Hemsky played a lot less than others though

The problem defensively last year was our skilled forwards. Yes, they usually face tougher competition but the point in hockey is to outscore the other team. It becomes hard to win with defensive numbers like Spezza, Michalek, Hemsky and even Zibanejad had...

I agree that Greening should have get scored on less in a defensive role but Smith and Neil defensive numbers are actually quite decent. IMO, a Hoffman-Smith-Neil could be quite effective (but how to get rid of Greening?)

What about the short sample guys? (ES GA, ES TOI, ES GA/60)

Derek Grant 8 146:11:00 3.29
Jean-Gabriel Pageau 9 241:31:00 2.24
Stephane Da Costa 4 116:17:00 2.07
Matt Kassian 5 146:27:00 2.06
Mike Hoffman 9 271:42:00 1.99
Mark Stone 8 243:09:00 1.98

Short sample size yeah, but I think Hoffman and Stone will be very good defensively (Hoffman because of great skating and Stone because of incredible hockey smarts), so if they replace Conacher/Hemsky (Conacher had actually good defensive results) and Zibanejad roles last year (Zibanejad becomes a regular center), that's an improvement. Now it will also be Legwand vs Spezza and Michalek (with new linemates and fully healthy) vs Michalek last year (since he has historically always been good defensively, there's hope). There's also Chiasson in the mix, but impossible to know which roles he will replace from last year. That being said, the forward group has potential to be much better defensively this year


I think it's clear that Michalek-Spezza-Hemsky-Zibanejad-Conacher didn't play the way that MacLean would like. In Zibanejad, it could have been partially but he is a very young player.

Another thing is I think the organization has a little bit of bias for Greening, but it has probably something to do with the fact that he could be much better than he was last year.

OK. I understand, that pessimism is a middle name of most Sens posters here.
But lets get real. To make PO we need be in a top 3 of our division. Boston is Boston, but even them need to start falling sometime. You seriously think, that our roster is much worse than in Montreal, Detroit, Toronto, Tampa, Florida or Buffalo ?
If our players starts to play to their potential, we can eat any of this teams alive.
I think we easilly can fight for 2-3 spot in division.
We are better team without Spezza-once you start to understand that, life seems more beautiful.

I agree that our team can play much better 2-way hockey. Spezza will mainly be missed on the PP. We will likely score less highlight reel goals but it's all about efficiency. Many players have the potential (and with player progression) to fill Spezza's offensive loss.

Like if :

- Turris scores 5 more points than he did
- How much Legwand can score vs Spezza's 66 pts?
- Zibanejad scores 10 more points than he did
- whoever replace Conacher/Hemsky score more than 37 points...

Etc, that's very realistic expectations. I believe this team can score as much as they did, but play a much better defensive game (team forwards commitment, goaltending and progression of the young blue-line are the factors here. PK efficiency and number of penalties against are too.)

As for the other teams in the division, I believe the only clearly better team is Boston. Tampa is strong too because they have a few young players that are cheap for now but they won't be able to afford that line-up for a long-time (not that the line-up is that impressive IMO)

Stamkos will get a big raise in 2016-17
Drouin will make a lot of money soon (if he is as good as HF seem to think)
Bishop makes almost 4 millions more starting next year
etc

We can easily beat the other teams most of the games (except Toronto for some reason). It will be a matter of consistency for this young team

 

[FlyingJ]

While if may have not been the line we'd win the game with, it freed up softer minutes for our more skilled lines.

Not when they were pushing 15 minutes a night they weren't.

Meanwhile, check out the chart near the bottom on this page, the zone entries chart.

 

[The Fuhr*]

OK. I understand, that pessimism is a middle name of most Sens posters here.
But lets get real. To make PO we need be in a top 3 of our division. Boston is Boston, but even them need to start falling sometime. You seriously think, that our roster is much worse than in Montreal, Detroit, Toronto, Tampa, Florida or Buffalo ?
If our players starts to play to their potential, we can eat any of this teams alive.
I think we easilly can fight for 2-3 spot in division.
We are better team without Spezza-once you start to understand that, life seems more beautiful.

Sens the last three years have gave up among the most shots per game... I hope Anderson can give the team a .940sv% like he did two years ago so the team can challenge for a playoff spot

The Sens are an average hockey club...

 

[DylanSensFan]

- Defense gave up 261G last year and nothing was addressed on the blue line

- last time Turrus was asked to carry the offense without Spezza he was only a 50 point player

- Alfredsson and Spezza left back to back years because they did not believe this team could contend for a cup

Teams closet toa lottery pick then a playoff spot

Neither of these players will ever win a Stanley Cup. Our team is getting closer to the Chicago Black Hawks style of play and style of player than it is to any of the bottom tier teams. Last season was an anomaly -- Ottawa will be back to the hard working team we saw two seasons before last and they will make the playoffs. Ryan is going to resign and have a good healthy season of success. This team will prove the nay says wrong.

 

[krapsik]

Neither of these players will ever win a Stanley Cup. Our team is getting closer to the Chicago Black Hawks style of play and style of player than it is to any of the bottom tier teams. Last season was anomaly -- Ottawa will be back to the hard working team we saw a the two seasons before last and they will make the playoffs. Ryan is going to resign and have a good healthy season of success. This team will prove the nay says wrong.

Amen

 

[bert]

haha, also that Tampa got better in the off-season argument... I don't get it. I mean, any idiot can spend



If that's all the Sens have, I'm expecting them to be by far the worst team in the NHL. I have seen posters like you come up with that kind of stuff for years. I'm still waiting for worse results than 22th, 26th and 20th...



Didn't really want to comment on this but can't help it when I see wrong facts. It's not that the Bolts don't score, but just that your argument doesn't work.

2013-14 : Tampa Bay 232 vs Ottawa 229
2012-13 : Tampa Bay 147 vs Ottawa 112 (sens missed Spezza, Karlsson and Michalek most of the season)
2011-12 : Tampa Bay 232 vs Ottawa 243

Well I was talking about the current rosters, Tampa bay didn't just spend they addressed a need. D men that can play in the top 4 and don't make mistakes outside of that they are in pretty good shape everywhere else.

Tampa also seems to have a balance of scoring and goal prevention, while Ottawa scored more goals this past season they were horrid defensively. Tampa was also missing Stamkos for most of the season and they added Drouin. On top of that Palat, Johnson and Kucherov are all elite offensive NHL talents that are a year older.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, there is some reason for optimism compared to last season. It has everything to do with the makeup of the team. Personally I don't mind the result if the effort is there, if players are doing the right things. Its watching a team make the same bone head carless mistakes game in game out and the leadership group take shifts off with next to zero effort. That I cant handle. Or young players that have a sense of entitlement without earning the icetime. When you have that attitude you cant get better.

 

[Engineer]

Neither of these players will ever win a Stanley Cup.

Dallas' roster is looking like a serious contender to me, but sure..

 

[DylanSensFan]

Dallas' roster is looking like a serious contender to me, but sure..

Dallas is no where near Chicago or LA as far as grit which is what it takes to be a contender. Spezza will deal with a lot closer, harder checking and more pain in the west then he ever had in the east. Alfredsson is a different player than Spezza and on the right team would win a cup -- but I do not feel he will find that team.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

True Dallas looks quite good but they have to get past a lot of really strong teams like LA, Chicago, St-Louis, San Jose, Minnesota etc.... I think those 5 teams are better than Dallas (Minnesota was awesome in the playoffs, Crawford saved Chicago's butt big time in the playoffs)

Spezza is on a much better team now and his chances at a Cup are better but I'm not sure I'd call Dallas a contender due to the West being so stacked

 

[BondraTime]

The heat Spezza still takes from fans here is comical. No need to blast him anymore, he doesn't play for us.

 

[DylanSensFan]

The heat Spezza still takes from fans here is comical. No need to blast him anymore, he doesn't play for us.

I don't see where he was ever blasted? The west will show Spezza for what he is known as being. A big offensively talented player who plays soft. A lot like Joe Thorton, who is only slightly more physical than Spezza.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

I don't see where he was ever blasted? The west will show Spezza for what he is known as being. A big offensively talented player who plays soft. A lot like Joe Thorton, who is only slightly more physical than Spezza.

 

[SilverSeven]

Sens the last three years have gave up among the most shots per game... I hope Anderson can give the team a .940sv% like he did two years ago so the team can challenge for a playoff spot

The Sens are an average hockey club...

In the NHL a number of average hockey clubs make the playoffs. Sometimes those average clubs go on magical runs.

This isn't the MLB.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

In the NHL a number of average hockey clubs make the playoffs. Sometimes those average clubs go on magical runs.

This isn't the MLB.

Wasn't that long ago that a couple very mediocre alberta teams squeeked into the playoffs and came within a hair of winning the stanley cup in two consecutive seasons.

It can and does happen.

 

[Super Cake]

Wasn't that long ago that a couple very mediocre alberta teams squeeked into the playoffs and came within a hair of winning the stanley cup in two consecutive seasons.

It can and does happen.

Wasn't Carolina also viewed as just an average team when they won the cup?

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Carolina's Cup run was a classic overachieving story

Cam Ward was absolutely unbelievable

 

[DylanSensFan]

Where is the Stanley Cup ring?

 

[Cosmix]

Well I was talking about the current rosters, Tampa bay didn't just spend they addressed a need. D men that can play in the top 4 and don't make mistakes outside of that they are in pretty good shape everywhere else.

Tampa also seems to have a balance of scoring and goal prevention, while Ottawa scored more goals this past season they were horrid defensively. Tampa was also missing Stamkos for most of the season and they added Drouin. On top of that Palat, Johnson and Kucherov are all elite offensive NHL talents that are a year older.

I agree with most of the rest of your post, there is some reason for optimism compared to last season. It has everything to do with the makeup of the team. Personally I don't mind the result if the effort is there, if players are doing the right things. Its watching a team make the same bone head carless mistakes game in game out and the leadership group take shifts off with next to zero effort. That I cant handle. Or young players that have a sense of entitlement without earning the icetime. When you have that attitude you cant get better.

Elite means the following:

A select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society:

How are these players elite in the NHL?